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Can we create something to counter play grievous wounds?

Siegfriedx1··4 votes·4,828 views

... For Soraka and only her?

Look i honestly don't have a problem that grievous wounds exist, my problem is that completely shut downs the champion Soraka by offering no counter play / iteration to overcome it for her. In high elo you can go as far as just pick ignite to completely shut down her existence, making picks like Nami more likely to succeed at healing what is not only strange but also counter intuitive.

If you don't believe in me, ask yourself when someone bought GW + ignite because there is a Nami on the enemy team? I'm 100% sure you never ever heard of that. But pick Soraka on very high elo and suddenly 3 guys from the enemy team will have GW and 2 will have ignite to counter you. Look at the team fight replays and you are going to see that Nami did a lot of stuff while Soraka couldn't impact nearly as 20% much.

I'm not talking about a counter PICK, i'm talking about a counter itemization and spell choice that ALL champions can do.

I can understand GW is a balanced status when we look champions like Janna that do many things aside from healing, or even on swain that still are going to deploy a ridiculous amount of damage even if you cut his self heal [you are cutting 1 from 4 skills from him], but healing being the only thing Soraka really do, this status can become too much of a burden to overcome when playing against really good people [beyond diamond 2].

Back in the day Soraka could remove GW with her ultimate and that was removed. I think that maybe completely removing GW was also not the way to go, as completely removes the initial healing counter play. But why soraka couldn't have a special item to her that, if she invested money into it, she could overcome GW in a special way?

Something like: Healing a champion that is under the effect of GW will grant then a shield of X plus Y armor and magic resistance.

Could be a 3500 late game item that just Soraka have. Would be cool to me. It could be an item, a passive, a summoner spell, i really don't care that much.

The thing is that it becomes too much to see all the GW popping up and realizing that being the best healer of the game also means being, while playing against good people, the worst support of the game.

OBS: To people that believe that Soraka is in a good spot in high elo right now you should reflect that most of the time is because of the lane phase spamming starcall status they added up to her, not because of what she was meant to be doing mid late game that is healing.

I personally think that something really strange happened to Soraka design over the time as i believe they completely gave up her high risk top healer status because of some balancing issues and invested everything in lane phase to make her mid - late game only noticeable in low elo.

40 Comments

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

making picks like Nami more likely to succeed at healing

Nami isn't better at healing, just offers more utility in other areas.

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mecha MaIphite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:16:28.777+0000)

Nami isn't better at healing, just offers more utility in other areas.

More likely to succeed at healing is not the same as saying better at healing.

The point is that being to good a only one thing make any counter to only that thing shutting you down. What is different when this is only a small part of a bigger kit.

Think about a champion that only crits. Everything it does is critical hits. Not even a dash. Who do you think it would feel more the impact of an item that cuts all critical hits by half? Lucian or that champion? When people are going to be building this item more often and on purpose?

What if a spell existed that reduced the damage from critical hits by 40%?

Nami healing more than soraka was never the point to start with.

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

So then it's not more likely to succeed at healing; it's more likely to succeed in general when healing is mitigated.

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mecha MaIphite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:21:35.185+0000)

So then it's not more likely to succeed at healing; it's more likely to succeed in general when healing is mitigated.

But the point is, no one invests to cut Nami's healing. GW pops up to Soraka in a picky way.

You are absurdly more likely to heal the full extension of Nami healing than Soraka's because of that.

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

But that doesn't mean her healing is more; Soraka's full healing output, even reduced by grievous wounds, is greater than Nami's healing, because of its lower cooldown and higher base and scaling; that's not even considering her ultimate.

Of course, Nami would probably outperform a Soraka whose enemies had GW, but only because she's stronger in other areas.

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mecha MaIphite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:30:22.800+0000)

But that doesn't mean her healing is more; Soraka's full healing output, even reduced by grievous wounds, is greater than Nami's healing, because of its lower cooldown and higher base and scaling; that's not even considering her ultimate.

Of course, Nami would probably outperform a Soraka whose enemies had GW, but only because she's stronger in other areas.

In high elo gameplay, after you tried 3 healings cut by GW you already lost the team fight.

It not about nami outperforming Soraka, is about all other supports outperforming her in that case because they don't only heal. There is no item that can completely shut down a support aside from Soraka.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

dont healing and lifesteal counter act grievous wounds ?

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:27:28.340+0000)

dont healing and lifesteal counter act grievous wounds ?

This don't even make sense. GW is the counter act to healing and lifesteal.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

no not really considering it only last for 3 seconds item 3123 and or item 3165 only effects if the champ is below 35% hp

but items like item 3065 increase healing ... and item 3072 life steal gives hp back

neither really counters the other... it just lessens the effect of each

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:30:10.066+0000)

no not really considering it only last for 3 seconds item 3123 and or item 3165 only effects if the champ is below 35% hp

but items like item 3065 increase healing ... and item 3072 life steal gives hp back

neither really counters the other... it just lessens the effect of each

I'm talking about high elo gameplay 3 seconds on every hit and forever is the same thing there.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but u get a grievous wound items for champs who heal alot... champs who heal alot usually gets items to increase their healing ?

so therefore the kinda cancel each other out and neither counters the other

Alesya3692 votes

Rofl no, the math heavily favors Grievous Wounds. Taking only SV and GW as an example the final healing modifier while being affected by those 2 sources will be equal to 0,78; that is still 22% healing decrease, and exeshit costs 800 gold and is viable to rush on basically more than half of the champions in the game while SV is super expensive and extremely situational. Also, if Soraka wanted SV to be a "counter" to GW she would need her ENTIRE TEAM to get SV whereas only one enemy (most likely ADC) needs only one execall to counter literally all sustain in enemy team.

Healers getting healing amplifiers means bullshit and should not be a reason to leave GW at current broken state, healers will get healing amplifiers anyway, all healers take Windspeaker by default, they are also very likely to get more heal amps from items (AC, Redempshit, Mikael etc.) so they are already balanced around getting there items and mastery as a core.

On top of that healing modfiers that affect outgoing heals are additive and healing modifiers that affect incoming heals are multiplicative... so GW always wins against any healpower stack, and that is even without considering the absurd gold effectivness of Execall when used against healing...

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

so you are saying that item 3123 alone counters item 3065 on a champ like maokai with his passive healing with having 8% healing mastery too ?

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-07T23:20:12.619+0000)

so you are saying that item 3123 alone counters item 3065 on a champ like maokai with his passive healing with having 8% healing mastery too ?

The post is about Soraka being completely shut down by GW on high elo. No relation to your example.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

its all relative ... we are talking about healing and healing reduction right ?

Alesya3691 votes

Maokai is still a tank, he still has shitton of CC, shitton of resistances and shitton of HP and maybe damage, Soraka has literally almost only healing. Reducing 90% of champion's kit by 40% is much more severe than reducing 15% of champion's kit by 40%......

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-07T23:27:55.007+0000)

its all relative ... we are talking about healing and healing reduction right ?

There is no relative stuff in that post. Is straight forward about Soraka and only her. The point is that she get all her kit hurt by GW on mid-late game on high elo without any type of counter-play for her. She is the only champion that can be hit by an item like that on the game and can be countered like that.

Many champions have counter picks and measures, Soraka have a counter spell called ignite. Have as the top item being made every game on mid lane being Morello and a 900 gold GW forever applier item that anyone can buy.

GW is not the problem as no other champion get impacted as high as Soraka, so the solution suggested on this post is to give Soraka an special item for her late game.

Maybe she could have a side quest to get 1000 gold from her support item to open this item on shop or something like that, but something that could add GW penetration to her.

Alesya3691 votes

His final healing modifier in that case will be 0,8424. that is ~16% decrease AFTER he has bought Spirit Visage, it completely NULLIFIES Spirit Visage AND Runic Blessing AND further lowers his healing below default 100% state.

dim2a2 votes

No, greviious wounds IS counterplay. And you're wrong in saying ignite completely shuts down soraka existence, even half of her healing is still a LOT. And you can't keep ignite often that much, it's a minor (but significant) counter. Grevious wounds is a bigger deal, but similarly she is STILL useful, just not as powerful. I think this is perfectly fine -- she makes opponents buy an otherwise gold inefficient item early, and still offers good healing, this is by no means weak.

Siegfriedx11 votes

{quoted}

No, greviious wounds IS counterplay. And you're wrong in saying ignite completely shuts down soraka existence, even half of her healing is still a LOT. And you can't keep ignite often that much, it's a minor (but significant) counter. Grevious wounds is a bigger deal, but similarly she is STILL useful, just not as powerful. I think this is perfectly fine -- she makes opponents buy an otherwise gold inefficient item early, and still offers good healing, this is by no means weak.

You are not coming from the same background as i am. Low elo gameplay is different than high elo gameplay.

As soon as they get GW who you need to protect dies and you lose. Soraka have a winrate based on her toxic lane phase right now. Her mid-late game role is completely shut down by good players that buy GW and play together.]

You can't look at an plat 5 game and write a line about how healing at 60% is fine to a character that just heals.

dim2a1 votes

{quoted}

You are not coming from the same background as i am. Low elo gameplay is different than high elo gameplay.

Um, the most recent game I played was in fact plat 5 flex. I see you ran out of good arguments, so started to pull rank, but in this case that doesn't help you either. But if you want to address rank instead of addressing what I'm saying... just confirms to me that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Siegfriedx11 votes

{quoted}

Um, the most recent game I played was in fact plat 5 flex. I see you ran out of good arguments, so started to pull rank, but in this case that doesn't help you either. But if you want to address rank instead of addressing what I'm saying... just confirms to me that you don't really know what you're talking about.

What arguments? Nothing you said was different than stating she is perfectly fine. I disagree with you and as you provided nothing more than repeating she is fine of many different ways i just answered you at the same level. Also my background have a whole impact on how i perceive Soraka, what differ greatly from you by how you think she is ok.

IWrath1 votes

Well if champions didn't have something to counter their existence, would league be any fun at all? Whether it be champ counters or items, these things exist for a reason. Start grabbing better items or getting ahead of your opponents.

Siegfriedx11 votes

{quoted}

Well if champions didn't have something to counter their existence, would league be any fun at all? Whether it be champ counters or items, these things exist for a reason. Start grabbing better items or getting ahead of your opponents.

You can counter physical damage with armor. But as dealing physical damage is basically the only thing that ad carries do, you have the armor penetration mechanic to counter balance it if you feel like investing in it. There is no counter to GW for Soraka, what have the same effect as every one of the enemy team having 100 armor against healings without any Healing Penetration status when they play well.

Healing is the only thing Soraka do, is not unreasonable to think she should have a counter measure in, at least, late game for it.

Automated Riven1 votes

The problem with creating counters to counters is that then you have a constant power struggle. Not even mentioning that an adc who buys and upgrades to mortal reminder is gonna feel really bad when raka just buys an item and negates his item choice.

This would be akin to buying qss and having malz or anyone with cc buy an item that says "cc cant be cleansed when you apply it"

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:36:31.652+0000)

The problem with creating counters to counters is that then you have a constant power struggle. Not even mentioning that an adc who buys and upgrades to mortal reminder is gonna feel really bad when raka just buys an item and negates his item choice.

This would be akin to buying qss and having malz or anyone with cc buy an item that says "cc cant be cleansed when you apply it"

Its not true to that case.

Healing is just the inverse effect of damage. To damage we have armor, to mitigate armor we have % armor penetration. Investing in % armor penetration makes your damage smaller against people that don't have armor, but makes it higher against people that are building armor.

Choosing between those 2 options [not making and making it] is a meaningful decision that can be interacted by the enemy team depending of what they build.

In Soraka case GW applies 100 Healing armor that can't be penetrated, what, in that case, falls on what you said of "can't be cleansed". Soraka can't penetrate GW. In fact Soraka can't do anything about GW.

Alesya3692 votes

Did he say to remove GW completely???? No, all we need is NERFING GW/adding counterplay, read the posts correctly ffs.

Start grabbing better items or getting ahead of your opponents.

Lol... that is... get 10 kills on enemy bot until enemy ADC accumulates 800 gold for executioner's calling. OH YEAH NICE COUNTERPLAY.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

I agree AD should have to work harder to buy it. It's no fair at all that they can spend 900g and get blanket GW on all their damage (provided they're not Ezreal or Kayle), but AP has to pay out for Morello and only the opportunity to apply GW at lower health (which won't help you, sometimes, depending on who you're against). AD should have to build a full item, too. It probably shouldn't be their armor pen either; I could see it being AS or something, but it shouldn't be something they're like as not to get anyway.

But GW needs to exist. If there's a counter to it, it can't be on healers, and it probably can't be accessible by self-healing champs who basically demand GW exists in the game.

Siegfriedx12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Fuzzi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:28:40.244+0000)

I agree AD should have to work harder to buy it. It's no fair at all that they can spend 900g and get blanket GW on all their damage (provided they're not Ezreal or Kayle), but AP has to pay out for Morello and only the opportunity to apply GW at lower health (which won't help you, sometimes, depending on who you're against). AD should have to build a full item, too. It probably shouldn't be their armor pen either; I could see it being AS or something, but it shouldn't be something they're like as not to get anyway.

But GW needs to exist. If there's a counter to it, it can't be on healers, and it probably can't be accessible by self-healing champs who basically demand GW exists in the game.

GW needs to exist. The point about Soraka is that GW is a status that shut her down. Morello is present in every game and anyone can pick ignite as examples of it.

No champion is affected as close to Soraka by GW, so my concern is only about her mid-late game options.

Sir Fuzzi2 votes

That's Soraka's issue. Grievous shouldn't cut her off so hard, but in order for her to be 'straight heals' she has to have either oppressive cooldowns, or clunky mechanics. Raka's Q and E are amidst the most hideous skills I've used in any MOBA that isn't Smite. Her heal hurts her(?????) and affects one target only.

Soraka has issues standing up to her own competition, not Grievous Wounds. Soraka needs a new rework, or at the least some heavy tweaks; I understand she probably functions fine (or at least until GW is concerned), but she's just so backwards compared to the other supports.

Maybe that's just me. Anyway, that means Soraka needs a hand, and I'd argue strongly that she needs better mechanics.

Siegfriedx11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Fuzzi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:42:13.557+0000)

That's Soraka's issue. Grievous shouldn't cut her off so hard, but in order for her to be 'straight heals' she has to have either oppressive cooldowns, or clunky mechanics. Raka's Q and E are amidst the most hideous skills I've used in any MOBA that isn't Smite. Her heal hurts her(?????) and affects one target only.

Soraka has issues standing up to her own competition, not Grievous Wounds. Soraka needs a new rework, or at the least some heavy tweaks; I understand she probably functions fine (or at least until GW is concerned), but she's just so backwards compared to the other supports.

Maybe that's just me. Anyway, that means Soraka needs a hand, and I'd argue strongly that she needs better mechanics.

I agree with you. I feel they gave up on her half way after Morello got out and invested on her lane phase to even out her winning % instead of living up to her theme.

Reaper Soraka1 votes

it doesn't really shut down soraka. Our best ability is really equinox. w/r/locket/redemption are a combo required, whether they use GW or not.

Locket is a shield, not a heal, so it helps get around it if they do.

Siegfriedx12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaper Soraka,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKqE8scM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:39:21.716+0000)

it doesn't really shut down soraka. Our best ability is really equinox. w/r/locket/redemption are a combo required, whether they use GW or not.

Locket is a shield, not a heal, so it helps get around it if they do.

Man i have 700.000 K mastery points on her and have been playing her my entire league life against challengers and masters all day. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/br/796297/%20Siegfriedx1#leagues

You lose on high elo after people build GW. In gold things are not like on challenger. I'm not trying to assume your level of gameplay but i lived that too many times for many years to state that.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

it's called shields and not taking deadly damage so you can outlast the ignite. I wouldn't say no to an offensive item that gives shields item 3072

Siegfriedx12 votes

{quoted}

it's called shields and not taking deadly damage so you can outlast the ignite. I wouldn't say no to an offensive item that gives shields item 3072

Yeah you are talking about champions that have shields. GW is not unbalanced to any champion your are thinking right now. I'm talking about being unbalanced to Soraka that have no shields to defend herself about it.

AmetDeCrypt3 votes

so ignite specifically counters soraka. most people complain she herself is unbalanced without it due to insane amounts of dps healing. maybe ignite itself should have the ability to be cleansed by a support item but mortal reminder is an item that's bought and changing grevious wounds just because ignite is free and shuts her down changes an already ok and balanced item that a specific class of player must buy. same with morellos. items bought to counter are perfectly fine so don't cry over grevious wounds, cry about ignite.

Siegfriedx11 votes

{quoted}

so ignite specifically counters soraka. most people complain she herself is unbalanced without it due to insane amounts of dps healing. maybe ignite itself should have the ability to be cleansed by a support item but mortal reminder is an item that's bought and changing grevious wounds just because ignite is free and shuts her down changes an already ok and balanced item that a specific class of player must buy. same with morellos. items bought to counter are perfectly fine so don't cry over grevious wounds, cry about ignite.

Ignite have cooldown. Executioner don't. Ignite ends after a while, executioner apply on every hit. The problem is not Ignite when everygame people build morello and executioner around soraka.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

executioner and morello hard counter about 4 champions which it is good against. Vladimir Soraka Illaoi Darius DrMundo or so, and then only specific parts of their kits. lord dominics is a way better purchase in most cases and morellos requires them being under a certain health threshhold to work, and if either of the classes that build those are within range to do enough damage to you then you've already fucked up and they don't need the extra GW to finish you off unless you're fed. the problem with changing GW is it's decent in most matchups and better in those matchups. nerfing it would make it trash except for the few times it's needed.

Siegfriedx11 votes

Some guy asked me about my experience with Soraka: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/br/796297/%20Siegfriedx1#champ-mastery

AlexisTheDragon1 votes

It makes Swain worthless.

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