Janna and zilean lost their global passives but new champion have one

Siegfriedx1·Aug 7, 2017·97 votes·9,298 views

Wasn't that completely against your previous way of thinking? The idea of having a champion that without any effort bring advantage to your team?

115 Comments

Variks the LoyalAug 7, 201745 votes

Janna and Zilean brought complete passive effects that were invisible power. Orrn's passive needs to be actively considered; which item do you upgrade? When do you upgrade it? Is it worth it to delay your next item, or should you wait until you have 6?

Siegfriedx1Aug 7, 201748 votes

Wasn't the problem the fact that they were bringing advantage offering no counter play by just existing in the match? I'm almost 100% sure I can find a quote from riot stating something similar.

Variks the LoyalAug 7, 201751 votes

Not quite; they brought a passive advantage that invisibly applied for the entirety of the game. Orrn's upgrade passive is only really relevant once everyone in the game has 6 items.

OleandervineAug 7, 20175 votes

And how easy is it in competitive play for this to happen? Competitive games are a lot more drawn out than standard normal games, because there's a lot more calculated movements and tactics involved, so matches drag out until one team can absolutely secure an advantage. Getting 6 items when you drag out the game is nothing, and this means that in competitive play, the team without an Ornn will be at a disadvantage. Ornn then becomes "Bring Ornn or lose." This is in no way beneficial to the game, and I can see this getting clipped fairly quickly.

Variks the LoyalAug 7, 20173 votes

We're seeing matches ending before 6 items just as much as they've been ending before 6 items. It actually makes Ornn more interesting than being a mere pick-ban.

If you build your team comp around early power and winning early (A frequent strategy nowadays), then you're at a strict advantage VS Ornn because he needs a whole game to reach full effectiveness. Ornn can be drafted against and itemized against, since most of his CC is very conditional he's fairly unreliable compared to other Tanks like Maokai or even Sejuani, and an item like Quicksilver or a summoner like Cleanse is extra-powerful VS him since you can make his already unreliable CC even more unreliable.

If you opt to pick Ornn, you're making a late-game investment and possibly giving up early game objectives like Rift Herald.

NineTailedMysticAug 7, 20172 votes

And then we have a meta shift to late game and suddenly he's ridiculous. Or even draft a late game comp and he still might be too good. But we also don't know what items he can upgrade.

JesuszillaAug 7, 201743 votes

Correct reasoning, wrong application.

You see, the thing about Zilean and janna's global passives is that it granted all champions everywhere this little boost that affected the game in a sub-layer that wasn't easily noticed and was something that was often hard to play around. It's very difficult to know and factor in the passive experience gains when Zilean was in game for your opponents if you're say in top lane and the enemy laner hits his level faster than you despite you planning around the level up based on waves. Or their ability to have that baseline higher movespeed that makes their engage slightly stronger, something small that has the opportunity to affect a player that isn't clear.

The bonus item upgrade is quite different though. Items are known quantities and the upgrades will also be known quantities that do specific things. They will be clear and obvious and you can see their items and know their affects the moment the player shows back up in front of you. This kind of benefit is powerful, but it's not hidden, and it's very obvious. This is a distinct difference that I think matters for the new champion.

Variks the LoyalAug 7, 20178 votes

I think you're agreeing with me? That's what I was trying to say.

Ornn's passive is something that can be actively considered and played around easily by playing more aggressively and trying to end before hitting 6 items. Janna and Zilean's old passives weren't interactive and couldn't be easily played around. It also doesn't apply until 6 items, whereas Janna and Zilean's were active for the whole game.

JesuszillaAug 7, 20176 votes

Yes I was agreeing with you, I just don't think you articulated it properly so I was rephrasing it, especially with the downvotes you were getting. It's not about the 6 items that makes it ok, it's that the bonus is on an item. It's about the visibility of the effect. With the old passives, they were sort of "hidden" or something you could not see clearly the power of them.

The items will show you EXACTLY what benefit is being given and is very clear and up front.

SteelflameAug 8, 20174 votes

Ornn's passive will probably still be worth it pre-6 items, as I'd bet that the power amp is worth more than the 1000 gold to build that amp stat wise.

I feel sorry for AP champions though. They have such shitty options for that passive. I mean, Deathcap. Wooo Hoooo. That item we didn't want to build because it's so stupidly expensive with such a terrible build path. Now, to get it to ultra-max extreme Deathcap... we gotta put 1000 MORE gold into it?

CithriaCAug 8, 20171 votes

I think that more ap items will get upgrades like rylais, nashors, the mask, and void staff. Roa(already stacks), tear upgrades(same as before), zhonyas(already strongish), and morrelo(It's a book XD) are iffy.

I don't think riot would hype the fanbase with a item mechanic and state that you can only chose 1 upgrade if ap champs only had 1 choice.

Edit: wow, just saw the item choices, I feel disappointed.

Oakleaf RangerAug 8, 20172 votes

AP champions got fucked hard on that passive. No one but AP burst champions (aka usually not mages) build death cap consistently. Also doesn't help that it's an item that scales with AP.

LankPantsAug 8, 20173 votes

Noone except Veigar builds Deathcap before 5 items in the current state of the game.

RiotMeddlerAug 8, 201745 votes

The big issue we had with old Zilean and Janna passives were the amount of power they'd offer to other lanes early game. Ornn's upgraded items for his team aren't relevant until, at absolute minimum 500-1000g after you complete your first big item. Even then there are plenty of other options you could be putting that gold into for equivalent or greater power. Where we're expecting they'll shine most is late game, when you're capped, or getting closer to capped. Pretty different to much of the impact of Janna/Zilean as a result.

LankPantsAug 8, 201729 votes

I'm a bit concerned about the choice of items TBH.

The AD items are strong and cover a wide range of champs item 3031 item 3071 item 3078 , pretty much every AD champ can find one of these and use it.

The tank items are pretty situational at best item 3068 is only usable by top laners to begin with and item 3001 is highly situational. These should have been item 3143 and item 3194 IMO.

item 3089 is just a bad item because of its cost, so I highly doubt AP champs will even care about this, how can you ever justify a nearly 5k purchase? I think you need about three items to replace this, likely item 3165 , item 3027 and item 3152 .

item 3190 and item 3107 are two super broad items that can be picked up by any support but that both favour tank supports. item 3504 or item 3174 would have been better over IMO.

Also just in terms of what you'd expect a Blacksmith to build all of these would be an improvement save maybe the Book.

The Yetii RiderAug 8, 201728 votes

If you think item 3001 is situational I don't know what to tell you.

The overwhelming majority of tank champions deal practically entirely magic damage. Nautilus Amumu Alistar Leona Braum TahmKench Blitzcrank Chogath Galio Gragas Ivern Maokai Malphite Nunu Rammus Sejuani Taric Zac all deal magic and not physical.

item 1401 , the premier tank item and the item most tanks rush, gives you constant magic damage that scales with your level.

So you're getting the 10% damage buff yourself.

Also a lot of tanks have stupidly high mana costs and stupidly low base mana. So the Eternity passive is fantastic. So is the build path.

Finally, chances are your support and your mid laner do magic damage. Even Zed has magic damage on his passive and Kha'Zix deals magic damage with his passive and W.

The item is not situational. It's in-combat sustain for tanks. It synergizes with Spirit Visage. It's absolutely fantastic.

YumaS2AstralAug 8, 201713 votes

Take out Zac from your list, since he is manaless, and has sustain, thus he is better off going item 3065

The Yetii RiderAug 8, 20174 votes

Sure, one tank that deals primarily magic damage doesn't want the item. That doesn't make it situational.

TheorcheroAug 8, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dV0ETLTO,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2017-08-08T03:13:19.789+0000)

Snip

Absolutely. Don't forget that item 3107 now isn't really purchased on tank supports because its base heal is really low and it benefits a ton from items that amplify healing and shielding, which mage supports ('enchanters') like to build.

Champion SkinAug 8, 20175 votes

Well..... it is still decent on tank supports (though not great).... because well the active is still good and it increases healing and shielding which makes item 3190 shield better (and any other shields or heals the tank have) the problem is that there is often better items like item 3109 item 3050 item 3800 (if the tank is doing engaging it can be quite good)

examples of heals/shield tank supports have Taric heal (Q) and shield (W) Alistar heal (passive) Thresh shield (W) Nautilus shield (W)

DuskDaUmbreonAug 8, 20172 votes

Redemption's heal/shield increase isn't enough to justify getting it on a tank support. You'd honestly get more use out of Athene's, if you wanted to help out your heals and shields.

And Locket scales better with more health than with heal/shield increases. 10% increase from any enchanter's item, versus 36% of bonus health.

LankPantsAug 8, 20173 votes

The item is not situational. It's in-combat sustain for tanks. It synergizes with Spirit Visage. It's absolutely fantastic.

The item is highly situational. It's only good if you have magic damage to multiply. I think out of the champs you listed Amumu, Malphite and Galio have enough magic damage to justify Mask as a stand alone item and Rammus, Gragas and Zac are close but have other reasons why they wouldn't want the item in many situations, Grag and Zac love SV and Rammus tends to want a lot of armour items before he gets an item like this.

Out of the other champs on your list Naut, Leona, Ali, Braum, TK, Blitz, Ivern and Taric just don't do the damage to justify the item alone. Maokai and Nunu have problems with the items range, a max range Nunu E or R or a Sapling won't actually have the Mask aura applied and Sej deals too much Phys damage to justify Mask.

For every tank except Amumu, Malphite and Galio it's a situational item.

Adaptive Helm is far less situational, its in combat statline is the same and it almost always hits something on the enemy team. I'm just going to look at your last 5 games and call out what Helm hits in each game from the enemy team

Game1: Malph W, Vik Q/E/R, Ali E Game2: Cho E, Sona Q (Aura and potentially active)/Ardent Censor Game3: Ekko Q/W, Skarner Q, Teemo E/R/Liandry's Game4: Heim Q/RQ/RW, Malph W Game5: Lux P, Bard P, Potentially Kayn Shadow Assassin P (I can't see which form he took)

This is what I mean by Adaptive Helm isn't actually situational, there's always something on the enemy team that makes you want it. Looking back over your match history for the last 20 games Adaptive hits at least one champion, there's certainly games however where Mask was bad, that's why I said Mask is more situational than Helm.

Professor WardAug 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The item is highly situational. It's only good if you have magic damage to multiply. I think out of the champs you listed Amumu, Malphite and Galio have enough magic damage to justify Mask as a stand alone item and Rammus, Gragas and Zac are close but have other reasons why they wouldn't want the item in many situations, Grag and Zac love SV and Rammus tends to want a lot of armour items before he gets an item like this.

Out of the other champs on your list Naut, Leona, Ali, Braum, TK, Blitz, Ivern and Taric just don't do the damage to justify the item alone. Maokai and Nunu have problems with the items range, a max range Nunu E or R or a Sapling won't actually have the Mask aura applied and Sej deals too much Phys damage to justify Mask.

For every tank except Amumu, Malphite and Galio it's a situational item.

Adaptive Helm is far less situational, its in combat statline is the same and it almost always hits something on the enemy team. I'm just going to look at your last 5 games and call out what Helm hits in each game from the enemy team

Game1: Malph W, Vik Q/E/R, Ali E Game2: Cho E, Sona Q (Aura and potentially active)/Ardent Censor Game3: Ekko Q/W, Skarner Q, Teemo E/R/Liandry's Game4: Heim Q/RQ/RW, Malph W Game5: Lux P, Bard P, Potentially Kayn Shadow Assassin P (I can't see which form he took)

This is what I mean by Adaptive Helm isn't actually situational, there's always something on the enemy team that makes you want it. Looking back over your match history for the last 20 games Adaptive hits at least one champion, there's certainly games however where Mask was bad, that's why I said Mask is more situational than Helm.

Youre entire post states that you dont even know how to use the item lol.

You do realize that mask helps your teams damage as well? Mask does way more damage when combined with an ap carry than it will ever do alone,** its not designed to make nautilus strong, its designed to make the allied ahri standing next to him strong after you lock them down.**

Mask also offers a significant mana increase, which basically all tanks have trouble with nowadays.

Mask is by far the most general mr/hp/cdr item you can buy right now. Seeing as it gives any ap champ on your team a 10% damage increase after you land a lock down.

Professor WardAug 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dV0ETLTO,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2017-08-08T03:13:19.789+0000)

If you think is situational I don't know what to tell you.

The overwhelming majority of tank champions deal practically entirely magic damage. all deal magic and not physical.

, the premier tank item and the item most tanks rush, gives you constant magic damage that scales with your level.

So you're getting the 10% damage buff yourself.

Also a lot of tanks have stupidly high mana costs and stupidly low base mana. So the Eternity passive is fantastic. So is the build path.

Finally, chances are your support and your mid laner do magic damage. Even Zed has magic damage on his passive and Kha'Zix deals magic damage with his passive and W.

The item is not situational. It's in-combat sustain for tanks. It synergizes with Spirit Visage. It's absolutely fantastic.

take item 1401 out of any damage talk that isnt about minions, 29 MAX damage before doing math for mr is literally completely negligible.

The Yetii RiderAug 11, 20171 votes

29 per second. Add 10% to that, it's 32 per second. Survive 10 seconds in melee, that's 320 damage, which is about as much as a mage ability if the mage is mid level with low AP. It's pretty good for being a free ability.

Professor WardAug 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dV0ETLTO,comment-id=000b0000000000050000,timestamp=2017-08-11T00:58:47.669+0000)

29 per second. Add 10% to that, it's 32 per second. Survive 10 seconds in melee, that's 320 damage, which is about as much as a mage ability if the mage is mid level with low AP. It's pretty good for being a free ability.

The problem is that surviving 10 seconds as melee isnt free, and anything that needs 10 whole seconds to do 320 damage is the weakest damage in game by far. Most mage abilities take less than a second to deal this damage, Also dot is inherently weaker due to the mechanics of the game(hp regen as a small example)

And again youre not accounting for mr, which makes it take close to around 20 seconds to deal around 300 damage to a champion. Literally negligible. In fact it is rather easy to be able to regen health faster than cinderhulk can deal it.

Check next time you die to a cinderhulk/sunfire champ, the sunfire damage never even makes top 3.

Sexy Jack RabbitAug 8, 20172 votes

I think their process of thinking Rabadons was that any AP champion can have it. Whereas with the other champions that is 100% not the case.

Katarina , Akali , Kennen is a short list of champion who will NEVER build Morello, Or Rod of Ages in your regular game. They're also almost solely lane items, or at best pretty shitty for most AP Junglers. These items are massive wastes of money for these champions as they simply do not synergize with their kits, and as a result it would feel HORRIBLE to not be able to interact with a buff EVERY1 else in the game gets.

item 3152 is a pretty decent suggestion, but it's entirely not fun for any1 who wants to play a champion like Lux Orianna Ziggs Zyra

The bottom line is that as MUCH as Rabadon's fucking sucks, it can simply be bought by every AP champion without excuse that it doesn't Synergize with their kit. It's NEVER a situational item, as Every AP Champion wants more AP in the end.

TwitchInMyPantsAug 8, 20177 votes

AD's have IE, Trinity Force, and Black Cleaver as options. APs have a 5k deathcap upgrade and abyssal if they can justify it. If they only wanted to buff stat based items there's options like Liandries and Gunblade, but I personally think Protobelt is the best suggestion. There's also Rylai's and Luden's which are a little more situational but still more common than Rabadon's.

I know his passive is intended to be limited but its honestly hardest on AP champs from what I can tell, its not very representative of what you actually want to buy.

Sexy Jack RabbitAug 8, 20174 votes

I agree it's most definitely hardest on AP champions. But unfortunately that mostly comes down to the Balance team fucking AP itemization to be so bland that item 3165 item 3020 item 3135 are built on probably 60% of mages no matter what their kit is like. Rather then an actual problem pertaining to the champion and the choice of item.

And when it's not item 3165 it's item 3027 which is arguably even more niche.

My personal suggestion would be that of item 3285 to actually make it a worthwhile purchase. Luden's wouldn't be so situational if it weren't so blatantly expensive for the sake of it.

Sire HippingtonAug 8, 20172 votes

Really? Ad's get 3 strong options, tanks(and to some extend bruisers) get one shitty and one niche item(though maybe sunfire is worth it **with **the upgrade) and APs get only one supbar option? The AD+support choices are sound, though assasins seem to be forced into either bc or trinity that way, but i really agree on the ap choice beeing bad, and fot tank items i think warmongs or stoneplate would be more fitting choices that appeal to most champs that want tankiness. I also feel like on-hit builts lack options. I see not a single item that i would want for example on kayle, maybe rabadons on AP kayle, but that's a big maybe. A nashors upgrade would be great fro them...

Siegfriedx1Aug 8, 20172 votes

Meddler can you talk a little about why Redemption and Solari are both in the list of upgradable items? Isn't that going to make comps around mid-late game + janna/soraka/lulu a little too strong?

Ex: Protect twitch comps?

What are the disadvantages the character have that would be downsides of having him on your team? [making it not a mandatory pick?]

I know that we didn't see him or his status yet and but could u talk a little about his major weaknesses? If he can go top/jungle/support, wouldn't that be a problem to other people counter picking it?

Thank you for giving us your insights!

Bionic AvianAug 8, 20171 votes

Here's my biggest problem with the design philosophy behind his passive:

Let's say you have a team of 5 champs, each getting these upgrades. If at minimum they're 750 each average, you're looking at a late-game team that has over 3.7k gold that they can utilize more effectively than the other team, if not more. And this means the end game, when 2 teams are supposed to be -even- in items, this immediately tips the scales in the team's favor with Ornn, a hero whose core strengths are fairly massive, his passive just being the icing on the proverbial cake.

Ornn being in the game tips the scales towards the team that has him in the late game, and some champion's passives fall off towards the later part of the game, especially when it's full build time (A time when he literally accentuates everyone else's builds with a stronger item.)

In other words, it feels like TF's, Janna's or Zileans' old passives pale in comparison to the usefulness of this in the late game, or even other points of the game depending on what the base stat increases actually amount to. :/

Him being able to shop anywhere and upgrade his own items feels like it's enough as it is, but bringing this to a whole team kind of feels like it defeats the purpose of the nerfs / changes to other heroes who had passives that affected their whole team. I get that you guys want this guy's thematic to extend to his allies, but he's strong enough without all of this, and his kit already offers more than enough value to any team with CC.

There is no counter-play in being able to strengthen an item, none whatsoever, that's the biggest problem I think everyone is facing right now. 2 teams at their end-game are no longer balanced with this kind of a passive.

JorenciceAug 10, 20171 votes

Is it that unique though? A 50 minute game with a veigar in it could easily have him at 1400+ AP.

To the point he can start 1 shooting tanks.

FilDaFunkAug 8, 20174 votes

I didn't even know League had a late game.

BârdAug 8, 20175 votes

Thing is, it's not 0 effort.

Each individual champion has to rack up 500 (supports) or 1000 (everyone else) extra gold to get these upgrades.

Douglas FunnieAug 7, 20174 votes

Riot is quickly turning into a casual game...

RNG Dragons
RNG Scuttle
RNG Plants
NPC Rift Harold
Supports required to play mini-quests
RNG Banning System with No Ban Option and Duplicate Bans
Kayn's form changing / wall hacking
Ornn's ability to craft items in lane instead of going to the shop and providing upgraded stats on items for teammates.
Summoner Spells spawning under Zoe's feet.
RNG Runes

EDIT:

LMAO look at the new Emotes Riot is implementing into the game. You can downvote this comment as many times as you like, but you have to admit, I'm right. Riot is turning League into a casual game.

Spells being spawned under Zoe's feet...

RNG Runes Reforged.

JesuszillaAug 7, 201730 votes

RNG dragons offer varying gives and takes in games.

RNG scuttle? What is RNG about a consistently respawning jungle camp?

RNG plants? They are always in the same spot and have consistent and reliable effects.

I don't think you understand what RNG is. Likewise, RNG doesn't make a game bad or casual either. Nothing about what you named is inherently bad for the game or makes the game more casual, would you mind explaining more instead of mindlessly naming off things you don't like?

Ariel the CruelAug 7, 201714 votes

RNG scuttle? What is RNG about a consistently respawning jungle camp?

I think someone fell for the scuttle Jukes. XD

kile147Aug 8, 20172 votes

Haven't we all...

BârdAug 8, 20173 votes

Best part is RNG bans

Douglas FunnieAug 9, 20171 votes

Emotes are being implemented into the game, lmao. It's obvious Riot wants League to be a casual game.

JesuszillaAug 9, 20171 votes

How does emotes = casual?

You keep just throwing out words for no reason.

Having customization in the game =/= being a casual game.

A casual game would be something that is small, simple, has very little progression, is easy to get into, offers plenty of content to the player automatically. Casual games are defined by the mechanics not the amenities.

Douglas FunnieAug 9, 20171 votes

This is what happens when a competitive game turns casual. I've seen this before. Bungie did the same to the Halo franchise. After Halo 3, Halo: Reach was released and that turned out to be a casual snooze fest. Then 343industries took it to a whole new level with Halo 4 by allowing players to spawn with a medium ranged 1 shot mini shotgun. Also, by allowing special weapons to spawn at their feet.

Much like what Riot's doing with Ornn. Where players literally forge items right under their feet instead of going back to the fountain. Also, the new reforged runes's credit rune, where players can buy items earlier in game, giving complete advantage over the opponents who don't have the credit rune enabled.

I know the signs of a competitive game turning into a casual game. The signs are here, believe me.

JesuszillaAug 9, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Douglas FunnieAug 9, 20171 votes

Ornn only allows HIMSELF to forge items in the lane, as part of his specific kit.

See, you said it yourself. Ornn is the only champ that can do that. Also, He's able to boost item stats for his entire team.

A huge advantage.

A competitive game needs to be balanced for both teams.

Remember OP's post? Riot nerfed Janna and zil because of their global passives which gave the entire team an advantage. At the time, Riot was at its peak in terms of competitive gaming.

I'm just speaking the truth, man. I don't know why you are trying to argue.

JesuszillaAug 9, 20171 votes

Yes, and Janna is the only champion with an aoe knockback healing on her R. Kayn is the only champion that has two different forms he can work toward and transform into permanently, Kled is the only champion that has a mount that changes the way his health functions.

Plenty of champions have different or unique advantages, there is no symmetrical balance in League. That doesn't mean that asymmetrical balance is unbalanced, which is the fallacy you prescribe to. If your problem is that the new champion does something unique and special, that's not a sign of a casual game, and additionally League has ALWAYS been designed this way.

I don't understand how advantage = casual. There's no such precedent.

And, as has been pointed out by a Rioter AND myself, the issue with Zilean and Janna's passives were NOT the benefit itself, but how the benefit was applied. It was a global effect that was always active for everyone everywhere all the time, and led to problems. The new upgrades are known bonuses, you have to invest gold into them, you don't just get them for free, and while it is something unique for that team it's only a small bonus that still has to happen over time. You aren't gaining anything for free.

I'm arguing with you because it's not truth, it's an opinion, and an ignorant one. You have YET to state what makes the game casual, you just keep naming incorrect or false things as problems, none of which make the game casual. Stop posting if you can't articulate your thoughts please.

Douglas FunnieAug 9, 20171 votes

In my original post on this thread, I provided a list of reasons why League of Legends is turning into a casual game. You may think I'm bullshit/ignorant, but wait and see. Once 2018 preseason begins, the game will be different. By the time Mid Season 2018 changes arrive, we'll start seeing heavier dose of casual gameplay mechanics implemented into the game, (i.e in-game quests)

I will continue to expose the truth, no matter what it takes. I am an avid League player because of the competitive aspect of the game. I want Riot to understand this. I will not stop posting.

Keep your eyes open and stay vigilant, friend.

Douglas FunnieNov 16, 20171 votes

I told you, man.

Reread my other posts I written down on this thread 3 months ago.

The game has turned casual. RNG Runes have been implemented into the game with the Runes Reforged. And a new champion that can spawn spells under her feet so she can use flash multiple times in less than a second. ( Just like the Halo analogy I written down.)

This is what happens when a competitive game turns casual. I've seen this before. Bungie did the same to the Halo franchise. After Halo 3, Halo: Reach was released and that turned out to be a casual snooze fest. Then 343industries took it to a whole new level with Halo 4 by allowing players to spawn with a medium ranged 1 shot mini shotgun. Also, by allowing special weapons to spawn at their feet.