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The only champion that I cannot understand how to beat

EvilRabbitt··2 votes·734 views

Graves. No joke. Like everyone else I get "grab Jinx, CC Katarina, Zhonya's Zed, Spell Shield Yasuo's Q, etc". Then I get Graves. Can someone tell me how to beat him that doesn't involve the term "git gud sc7ub"? As ADC, as support I just bully everyone so I never get the problem there.

My problem- I see Graves picked enemy team (assuming not blind or teampick because I nevre first pick adc) and I freak out and pick one of my comfort picks: Jinx or Sivir. From there I let them push lane to my tower as Jinx where I can farm easy and safe, or push the wave super hard with Sivir. No matter which I do, either my support gets caught and dies or I get blasted under tower from 50% hp.

Steps I take: Leave lane if under 50% hp. Ward river CONSTANTLY. Try to poke graves while he cs's OR outrange him to get cs without getting poked. Dodge annoying enemy support. Watch as I get Q'd constantly. Hug tower to not die. Farm under tower like a god missing 1 or 2 cs total a wave. Deny Graves his back until oom. He backs anyway and I back after I push wave to tower or neutral zone it. Get q'd more. Get under tower again. He hits 6. I hope I have flash up and dodge it until he slides in and W/Q's me Or flash down and I just get ulted in the mouth and you here "you have been slain".

Only lane that ever legitimately makes me stress. Help please and thank you. He's my last one to tack besides Maokai, but Mao starting to make sense (just Vayne him lol).

13 Comments

disregardable4 votes

Regardless of anything else, you should STOP bringing Jinx into Graves. Jinx's main weakness is getting jumped on, which is exactly what Graves is good at. Do. Not. Do. It.

Now. There are two really big counters to Graves: Caitlyn and Draven You either have so much range on him that he can't fucking touch you or you out-fucking burst him. Even if you don't like/have them, you should consider those two scenarios when picking against Graves. Ashe has better scaling than Caitlyn and enough ranged harass, while Vayne has a bursty combo with true damage to get around Graves' passive. Try to complement your team a bit while not screwing yourself over.

Edit: If you want to bring Sivir into Graves, you shouldn't be having a big problem. Just harass with your Q, always. Make sure you're using your spell shield on his buckshot- it keeps your mana up, so you can keep harassing with your Q.

Sightless662 votes

Regardless of anything else, you should STOP bringing Jinx into Graves. Jinx's main weakness is getting jumped on, which is exactly what Graves is good at. Do. Not. Do. It.

I actually completely disagree. I actually think Jinx is the single best pick you can have against a Graves (Draven can compete with her, but I'd put Jinx ahead of him). His biggest vulnerability in lane is range, and if he overextends she can punish him extremely hard with the E and W, locking him down and hitting him from outside of his range. Jinx also has the advantage of being able to take him in a sustained trade if he decides to go all-in, which is something other ranged champions can't do. Later in the game, she can stay completely safe from him and not have to expose herself to either his burst or the risk of getting smokescreened, but she'll also put out more dps than him so he has to take some kind of risk or his frontline will fall before hers does. The only time Graves is good against Jinx is if he gets stupidly ahead, but she's good at preventing him from doing that. It's a great matchup.

Champion.gg also lists her as the number 1 counter to Graves based on their analysis. She should be strongly considered anytime a Graves shows his face on the enemy team.

disregardable3 votes

if he overextends

You mean engages you.

she can punish him extremely hard with the E and W

What? They're both extremely unreliable, Graves can dash right past them (to then all-in you).

Jinx also has the advantage of being able to take him in a sustained trade

What makes you think this? Graves' passive is designed around winning sustained fights. He dashes in, he takes out half your health with buckshot, then he is tankier than you to finish you off.

Later in the game, she can stay completely safe from him

True, but Jinx is made by her early game. If she loses to Graves in laning, which assuming equal supports she should, she will not be particularly relevant in midgame.

she'll also put out more dps than him

Not if he wins lane, which he should.

He has to take some kind of risk or his frontline will fall before hers does

That is a part of playing Graves almost regardless of who you're against. His range is just too short. A good Graves shouldn't have a problem.

Champion.gg also lists her as the number 1 counter to Graves based on their analysis

That's actually just ordered based off of number of games. If you click on the advanced statistics, you can see that Graves' win rate against Jinx has for some reason dropped 4.16% recently. Why? The champions haven't changed, and neither has the matchup. I'd say it's because they only considered 20,000 games in the analysis. To put that in perspective, Jinx gets played around 1.3 million times a month in NA.

Sightless661 votes

What? They're both extremely unreliable, Graves can dash right past them (to then all-in you).

He dashes past you, which makes it very easy to throw the E slightly behind him. He can't avoid them without walking a long way around. You can then hit him from outside his range, and use W to get extra time to smack him with (this can be done even if he avoids the E because avoiding it requires him to move in a predictable pattern).

And that's just at early levels. Once you get up to level 5 and beyond, your autoattack range is such that you can bully him with long range autoattacks without having to expose yourself to the risk of a multiple-hit buckshot. Farming safely at this point is very easy, given that you can push quickly and from range. Bullying him isn't particularly hard either. You can take advantage of his short range in the same way a Caitlyn could.

You shouldn't lose lane often to Graves. Going even should be by far the most common result.

That is a part of playing Graves almost regardless of who you're against. His range is just too short. A good Graves shouldn't have a problem.

And a good Jinx shouldn't have a problem giving Graves a problem. This is just unrealistic. Range is going to be a problem for Graves, so champions who can more easily exploit the range gap are going to have a much easier time against him. The range gap may be mitigitable against an MF or a Corki, but it's going to be easily exploited by champions like Jinx. If the Jinx player is as good as the Graves player, she's going to have an easier time taking advantage of the range gap than he will closing the range gap, particularly since he has to get through a frontline to get to her while she doesn't have much pressure at all to hit him.

That's actually just ordered based off of number of games. If you click on the advanced statistics, you can see that Graves' win rate against Jinx has for some reason dropped 4.16% recently

Both of your claims here are incorrect. First, the order isn't based on number of games. If you look below, you'll notice that Caitlyn is ranked below Sivir, Draven and Ashe despite having more games than any of them (16219) followed by Varus who has very few games (1461) followed by Kalista (7858). The number of games is irrelevant to the ordering on that list. The ordering of the list is based on the change of the factors presented in the indepth stats.

Second, they also aren't saying that Graves' winrate against Jinx has dropped 4.16% recently. "Recently" has nothing to do with it. That stat is saying that Graves' winrate against Jinx is 4.16% lower than his average winrate. If his winrate is ordinarily 50.45%, then it is 46.29% against her. This is not in any way saying there has been a change in the matchup recently. In fact, I can guarantee you that their stats for this matchup have not changed significantly in the last 3 patches (that is how long I've been using the site, so that's how long I can speak for). You can see a similar relative winrate for the two champions on Lolking's buttom-lane matchup chart.

You should reevaluate this data. I'm really not trying to be impolite, and I'm sorry if it comes off like I am, but I don't think you fairly considered what they were presenting.

I'd say it's because they only considered 20,000 games in the analysis. To put that in perspective, Jinx gets played around 1.3 million times a month in NA.

20,000 data points is not an insufficient sample (particularly since the 1.3 million is all games, and not just games of this specific matchup), and they aren't showing any signs of unusual variance that would lead us to suspect it would be. Statistical significance can be easily achieved with those numbers. This is not a valid complaint.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

My problem is pre-6. Post 6, my rocket aim is monstrously rude (ks bawus kinda thing with it). Pre-6 I barely beat his range, minus dash. My Q only gets rank 3 so around ~600 i think (i never check). If I lob Chompers then he just walks or dashes through before they charge. If I w he sidesteps. If he gets in minigun range, his passive scales faster than Pow-Pow. =( It's painful. Late is no problemo, blast him in 3 shots from 700 range. Its laning.

Sightless661 votes

Q range goes from 600-700. You'll be farming from a good range on him even from level 1, and at Q level 3 you have 650, the same range as Caitlyn.

You don't start by lobbing choppers or W. Those have to be used reactively. Any action Pre-6 is going to be initiated by him or the supports. You don't start it, unless you're hitting him with rocket harass. If he throws a long range Q at you, hit him with rockets while it's on cooldown. He isn't a threat to you without it, so punish him for the full time it's down. If he tries to go in on you while it's down, you will out-dps him with the minigun. If he does dash into you, that is when you use choppers. Throw them as he is dashing, so they land slightly behind him and angled slightly towards your support. He'll either walk into the traps, in which case you pummel him mercilessly and W him as he is trying to leave, or he'll avoid them by walking towards your support, in which case they have the opportunity to punish him.

The biggest thing is not being scared of him if he blows a Q. If he does that for any reason, you trade back. His sustained dps is mediocre. You can trade at least evenly with that, particularly since he has to expose himself to some risk by diving in if he wants to put good damage on you. Make sure you've backed off before the Q is up again.

Get the early push on him so he can't beat you to level 2, then be pushing until around level 3. The minion buffer will make staying safe against him much easier. Don't let him push on you in the early levels. If he hits levels 2-3 first and there are no minions to help you win a fight against him, you will suffer. A minion crowd and the temporary level advantage can prevent an all-in in the early levels. Don't give them up for free.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

How long is his Q cooldown? (I can math cdr, idk base cd though) And thanks =).

Sightless661 votes

12-8.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I am with you on hating the Graves match up.

He's an ADC, that means sustained damage. Wait, he has burst too? How is that balanced? Oh, and don't forget he's mobile (has a dash) AND has his smokescreen as a slow and to protect himself from damage (can't auto attack what you can't see). How someone with 2 defensive abilities has so much burst is beyond me.

I honestly think with his kit, Graves is meant to win lane. You don't beat him in lane. You beat him late game because he's short ranged and can't siege turrets nearly as well as most ADCs. Either that, or pick Caitlyn and poke him relentlessly, or call for a lane swap (as Graves shouldn't be as good at denying your top laner as you are at denying his).

Aerith Lilly1 votes

you have to avoid fighting him pre 6. hes a early game lane bully adc. You should focus on playing passive until you can play to your characters strengths

EvilRabbitt1 votes

Treat him like I treat Darius and Pantheon? Kinda, stay safe/farm safe. Murder mid. Dominate late?

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

He can't kill you. if you dodge his Q... If you don't get poked, he can't all-in. Long range adc (Varus, Ashe) destroy him - he can trade with them only, if he uses his dash forward (which means that he commits and is dead meat, if he makes a mistake)

Dunkrius2g1 votes

If you are willing to take up a ban, then ban him.

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