A Better Valor Rework (meh, close enough)

GetMariahCarried··5 votes·1,355 views

Riot has repurposed Valor to a more ubiquitously effective role by replacing his assassination kit with... well, they didn't replace it. They just deleted it. He is now a transportation device. But a highly spammable one! This would be okay, except the Quinn/Valor mantra is "tag-team" and Quinn cracking the whip on Valor is not a tag-team.

If you want to make a REAL tag-team, each character must have a unique set of independent actions as before, but Valor can't have an assassination kit with ranged adc stats, turning him into an assassin that's more high-risk than actual high-risk assassins. The synergy between ADC and Assassin is so great that you have to nerf the effectiveness of both to the point of making Quinn one of those RPG jack-of-all-trades classes that kind of sucks at everything. That's what Riot is trying to fix, but that SHOULDN'T MEAN "no more tag-team".

I propose Riot DOESN'T give Valor a melee-assassin glass cannon kit that's basically a copy-cat of Quinn's toolkit, but DOES give Valor a more orthogonal kit that fits his style. What is he now when you're Quinn? A warder/blinder/damage-buffer. He's utility. Utility that can't be eliminated because he's not a target when you're playing Quinn (if only I could shoot that dang bird when he CAWS at me with those STUPID TARGET RETICLES!) Sounds a bit like a hard-to-catch support to me. Besides, as I said in another thread, he's a bird, not a gun/crossbow/cannon-toting serial killer. Why should he be an assassin (besides, isn't that Nidalee's shtick? And isn't Quinn suppose to be unique?)

So what do I suggest Riot gives Valor that fits his style and preserves tag-team? That is spammable to some degree, so Valor fits an equal role with Quinn, as a tag-team should? That makes Valor useful more generally instead of only when that poor enemy Cait is split-pushing alone? That doesn't make the toggle ult match other existing toggle-ult purposes? That fits a melee role without a) requiring Quinn to tank-itemize like she's gnar or something, nerfing her glass cannon nature but b) doesn't over-steroid a melee fighter from glass cannon items?

In summary, my suggestion is: a flat scaling Valor support toolkit with little need for or impact from itemization. If you can think of a another support toolkit, BY ALL MEANS, POST. It's the intention of the following toolkit that I care about the most: VALOR, THE SUPPORT TERROR. Details can be overhauled. And I'd really like to seem some alternative, practical choices if you have any.

  • Passive:

  • 50% bonus move speed.

  • Attack speed and ability-damage are reduced to a third.

  • Basic attacks apply Valor marks on-hit. Marks can be consumed by allies while you're Valor.

  • Cooldowns for Q and E are 30% less for Valor than for Quinn.

  • Q: Attack in an aoe. Enemies hit are blinded and their vision-range is reduced to 200 for 1 second.

  • W: Reconnaissance: Valor breaks cc and, after a 1-second in-place channel, soars above the battlefield for 7 seconds. Can be ended early after 2 seconds. Channel cannot be canceled, but is interrupted by hard cc. Holds 2 charges. Gain one charge every 30 seconds (while Quinn or Valor). Upon returning to the battlefield after another 1-second, in-place channel, Valor has 50% bonus move speed for 0.75 seconds and is untargettable for 0.25 seconds. While above the battlefield, Valor

  • is untargettable

  • has 800 sight range

  • can move over and see over walls

  • cannot cast Q or E

  • loses untargettability for 0.5 seconds whenever basic attacking

  • is visible to all enemy champs ("It's a bird!" "It's a plane!" "We're screwed...")

  • E: Valor dashes in a straight line, damaging, interrupting, and slowing all enemies in the path. Q can be cast during the E-dash and does not interrupt the dash.

  • R-Toggle: 20/15/10-second cooldown both ways and a 1-second channel time during which you CAN still move, attack, and cast abilities.

  • Skystrike: Does no damage, but arrows hitting the ground act as traps for 5 seconds, applying Valor marks to enemies that walk through them.

This positions Valor in a battlefield-scoping role when you're roam-spamming, with a teamfight-role of being a hard-to-catch bird, undermining enemy actions as a battle starts, assisting allies with damage output, and then positioning Quinn to bring in some high burst when you switch back.

Some specific points to my thinking:

  • Reduced damage/attack speed: Valor is a support bird, not a homicidal psychopath.
  • Controlled valor-marking. Marks consumed by alliies: support steroid.
  • Additional vision-reduction added to blinding: support steroid.
  • W is most of the juke stats, but has various counter-mechanics to keep it subdued (visibility to enemies, channel times to react to upon entering and leaving reconnaissance, etc.). It basically turns you into a fast-moving, player-controlled scrying orb (support steroid). I added the additional 0.25 second untargettability so there would be time to cast E or Q to juke upon landing (No enemies going "Valor's landing here guys, gather around for dinner.")
  • E is now a multi-target skillshot that passes THROUGH enemies. Think utility-oriented, skillshot fizz jousting. EQ combo for awesome enemy dive-through Q-bombing skillz. Again, support steroid and juking.
  • R toggle cooldown BOTH WAYS: Use and time Valor and Quinn wisely.

Let me know your thoughts and any counter-suggestions.

31 Comments

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

That is the single most broken idea I have ever heard. Inifnite invulnerability and vision range? Are you nuts?

GetMariahCarried1 votes

You apparently didn't read it carefully, because your description is nuts.

That's like saying "Panth has infinite invulnerability because you can't attack him for the 2-4 seconds when he's in the air ulting", or "Karthus has infinite invulnerability because I can't kill him while he's dead," Or "summoner platforms are broken, because they basically provide infinite invulnerability if you stand far enough in the back", or "zhonya's provides infinite invulnerability because not only does it actually provide invulnerability, it can be used more than once", or "Ashe's W gives infinite vision, because it moves, has a huge range, and has a non-ult-level cooldown". None of these, or any of the OTHER sources of invulnerability/vision in this game mode, or the one I'M suggesting, are ACTUAL sources of "infinite ANYTHING" and for most of them, the thing that makes them balanced is JUST a matter of numbers and counter-mechanics.

If you can't actually quantify the amount that's given (in this case, up to 10 seconds every 60 seconds tops, with fully disabled abilities, while granting vision to enemies across the map on you no matter where you are) and provide a counter-suggestion on numbers, counter-mechanics, or mechanic-debuffing, you're not contributing to the discussion.

  • How about decreasing the duration and increase the toggle-charge time. Only 5 seconds tops every 75 seconds? (It wasn't "INFINITE" before, but since you bring up invulnerability and vision range, let's talk about how much each really is, and how much they could be.)
  • How about removing all movespeed buffs in recon mode?
  • How about reducing the vision range from 800 to 600?
  • How about removing vision in bushes (except those directly below), but keeping vision over walls?
  • How about reducing the untargettable state to only abilities and auto-attacks cast below 300 range (maybe Darius can't get to that blasted bird, but Caitlyn can! ... as long as it's not directly above, with the sun in her eyes.)
  • Maybe add a channel time to the cc clear, or only clear certain types of cc's.
  • Maybe disable marking during it as well.
  • Maybe keep marking, but remove untargettability while marking for 1 second.
  • Maybe do a TON OF THE ABOVE
  • Etc. Etc. Etc.

There's no problem with critical comments. But please actually assist in the discussion instead of just making absurd claims with little to nothing backing them, and little to nothing useful. People make a thread like this to make counter-suggestions to Riot's choices. It's not another "Riot's choices make me cry" thread, and the responses shouldn't be of a similar style to that either.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Ok, I didn't see the 10 seconds thing. Or maybe you added it after my comment. Even still, it operates on charges, so you could very well be invulnerable for a full minute.

Yeah, but Panth effectively can't help his team in any way as he prepares his ult. Karthus passive lasts 7 seconds, he can't move or auto or use actives, and he has to die to get it. Ashe's vision is linear, only lasts a second or two, and actually has like an 80-sec recharge time. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove when you say summoner platforms provide invulnerability (they actually dont) or that Zhonyas provides infinite invulnerrability- when it lasts 2.5 seconds? Were you high when you typed that first paragraph.....?

First off, the idea in theory is still insane. You would never be able to catch her. For one, she gets 50% bonus move speed. Your wording is unclear, this either means she has 600+ movespeed AT LEVEL ONE or like 700-800 at level 12. Secondly, you're all about "massive jukes and tanking" with her two forms, when really, it just basically means that any time she gets caught out she just becomes untargetable for 10 seconds with no counterplay and move wherever she pleases. I don't want to be rude but if you honestly think that would ever be balanced and/or be in the game then you are stupid. 0lus it CLEARS ALL CC? This further reinforces the fact that she would never die unless she never leveled the ability or was blind. How can you possibly defend that ability?

P.S. Don't be a smartass of your answer isn't even coherent.

P.P.S. This isn't some official red thread and you're some mod who fosters debate and whatnot. You're lucky I even commented at all, no need to act entitled.

GetMariahCarried1 votes

"you could very well be invulnerable for a full minute."

Not a full minute. 30 seconds. Toggle charge consumption is both ways. And it's technically not even 30 seconds, with vulnerability in intermediate intervals. Even so, I still suggested about a half a dozen different ways to nerf that, and none of those nerfs are that complicated.

"Yeah, but Panth effectively can't help his team in any way as he prepares his ult."

And Valor can't use Q or E. I even suggested removing the proc passive, which basically removes everything except vision and movement, which I also suggested nerfing.

"Karthus passive lasts 7 seconds, he can't move or auto or use actives, and he has to die to get it."

But he gets to use abilities and my valor rework WOULDN'T?! OH MY GOSH KARTHUS BROKEN!

"Ashe's vision is linear, only lasts a second or two, and actually has like an 80-sec recharge time."

Kalista. Twisted Fate. Many other champs. 'Nough said. I'm not gonna mention every possible example just to appease one guy who refuses to think about the game in full for himself.

"I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove when you say summoner platforms provide invulnerability"

See even you get tired after seeing the third example.

"(they actually don't)"

Pointless counter-argument is pointless. What are you arguing about here? The semantics of: "Massive steroided Mundo health regen + insta-deletion for any enemy that tries to get to you on the platform"... vs... "invulnerability". ... Really? You're TRYING to find a reason to argue when there isn't any, and therefore I know reading any more of your comments will be a waste of time after responding to this one. But for the sake of other people who shouldn't be misinformed by you regarding my Quinn suggestions if they read this at all, I'll finish my thoughts this once.

"or that Zhonyas provides infinite invulnerability- when it lasts 2.5 seconds?"

Exactly, numbers. Way to go.

"Were you high when you typed that first paragraph.....?"

Like I said a few sentences ago: "don't feed the troll" alarm bells are going off. But for other people's sake...

"You would never be able to catch her. For one, she gets 50% bonus move speed. Your wording is unclear, this either means she has 600+ movespeed AT LEVEL ONE or like 700-800 at level 12."

It's not unclear. You don't know stat math, or you're pulling numbers out of your ass just to incite arg-... oh right, alarm bells, forgot...

I'll do the numbers for everyone, although I'm pretty sure everybody else knows how percent bonuses work. 50% bonus move speed = 0.5*335 base move speed = 167.5 move speed buff, which is currently 167.5 LESS than what Valor has now (in combat it slows down over time though) and also significantly less than what's on the PBE (130%). And I NEVER gave a level-scaling for anyone who's wondering.

On PBE you instantly return to Quinn if attacked. Here it would be way harder to catch you, partly on purpose (it's not like you're performing a glass-cannon carry role during the duration) but I still suggested, again, about a half a dozen nerfs to handle catchability. Additionally, other CURRENT passive stats that would act as counter-mechanics are open to possibility (goes without saying, but technically, all of this should go without saying. Some people refuse to think, so I'll do it for you this one time).

"really, it just basically means that any time she gets caught out she just becomes untargetable for 10 seconds with no counterplay and move wherever she pleases."

Only as Valor, if you ever actually had to do Quinn glass cannon duty, you'd find it very hard, when in trouble, to channel your ult just to then hit recon mode and juke out. And again. Read. Bullets.

"I don't want to be rude"

You've made the OPPOSITE abundantly clear from your first post onwards.

" if you honestly think that would ever be balanced..."

Uh, i'll finish that sentence: then, I actually did the numbers and I at least read MY OWN bullets.

"Plus it CLEARS ALL CC?"

Bullets.

"This further reinforces the fact that she would never die"

Just like GP and Fizz... oh wait, they still die. Yes, it's a cc-break AND an untargettable state. But GP and Fizz can cast once every 14 seconds and 8 seconds, respectively. Valor's would be every one minute, possibly stacking up to 3 in a row once every 3 minutes (if you saved them the rest of the time) with at least 4 seconds in between each based on toggle cooldown which can be changed, and toggle-charge cap, which can also be nerfed. Again: PLETHORA of ideas here for anyone who ACTUALLY wants to discuss this topic. You clearly don't.

"How can you possibly defend that ability?"

Bullets.

"Don't be a smartass of your answer isn't even coherent."

I'm not, and it wasn't. Facts are apparently incoherent to you. There's nothing I can do about that.

"You're lucky I even commented at all"

Yes I love cleaning up other people's messes.

Ya know, I remember a massive outcry at the Aatrox release because players somehow thought his W as described in the spotlight would provide INFINITE SUSTAIN (yes I do believe they used those words) THE WORLD HAD NEVER SEEN. I just rolled my eyes, and was relieved when they finally shut up after he got trashed in half of matches the first few weeks of release, which I wasn't surprised at all by. I don't relish hearing from those people, nor should anyone.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

"Read my bullets so I don't have to explain myself."

Let's just set this straight. The rest of this kit is fine, I don't care about the Q or E or R. They are fin. I like the Q a lot actually.

The W is broken and I'm still confused how you don't see it. Your last post was too full of poorly-veiled insults and snide comments, so I'll just say you're still an entitled asshole.

You like the facts you pull out of your ass with each new comment so much, so here's some: Quinn gets caught out in a gank due to bad play on her part and good play on her opponents? Nope, press W and she's fine, even if it's someone like Panth or Maokai. Over and over and over again. Being chased after a bad teamfight? Nope, just fly over the 5 nearest walls and back to base with like your 3 bonus movespeed passives and back to base, because 10 seconds is a long time in League of Legends (max Ashe stun is 3.5 seconds, and that feels like years). Bad positioning in a teamfight and the Irelia/Sion/Trynda caught you out? Nah, no problem, you get 10 seconds of free invulnerability and CC cLear to reposition or screw your team. And don't even get me started on backdooring.

GP gets it every like 15 seconds or so and he isn't really all that mobile unless he sets up his chain first (as I would know, I'be played him even before the rework). Vlad sacrifices 20% of his health. Tahm can't eat himself, and he's basically removed a key member of the team by doing so (I main Tahm as well, I've gotten so many 'wtf tahm I was string combo!?#?.......when they were at like 30% health and CCed). And Fizz- Fizz's is BS I'm not going to defend it. Oh yeah, and Bard's ult can lose games if used improperly.

Another insane thing about the ability is that it has the potential to cleanse CC that other's cant. DYK that you can't cleanse knockups? Well, because you also become untargetable in the process, you'll also counter Yas, Ori, Malph, and very other initiation in the game without even trying. It's simply overpowered, even if it only did that.

By 600 movespeed I meant the additional 50% she gets when switching forms. That's 100% bonus movepseed in total. And even just with her normal passive, she will be moving at 415is movepseed at level 1. That's just as crazy.

FACTS FACTS FACTS I LIKE FACTS AND YOU ARE STUPID Please. I've read your original post about 5 times now and in each of your responses you seem to change or add something each time. I'm still not wholly sure what your argument even is: are you trying to prove the W is balanced? Because your last 2 posts have been "my first post was right, read it again, also, you are a troll. I don't want to deal with your points so I'll just tell you to read it again." That's not how you have a discussion, sorry.

Now, on your next post, please explain to me (without calling me a troll very other line) how Recon Mode is balanced. Also without comparing it to balanced things like Karthus passive, Zhonyas, or the starting platform.

Edit: Even Fizz is only untargetable for like 1.5-2 seconds total. The trick is to bait it out.

FlameHalbrdOkido2 votes

{quoted}

"Read my bullets so I don't have to explain myself."

Let's just set this straight. The rest of this kit is fine, I don't care about the Q or E or R. They are fin. I like the Q a lot actually.

The W is broken and I'm still confused how you don't see it. Your last post was too full of poorly-veiled insults and snide comments, so I'll just say you're still an entitled asshole.

You like the facts you pull out of your ass with each new comment so much, so here's some: Quinn gets caught out in a gank due to bad play on her part and good play on her opponents? Nope, press W and she's fine, even if it's someone like Panth or Maokai. Over and over and over again. Being chased after a bad teamfight? Nope, just fly over the 5 nearest walls and back to base with like your 3 bonus movespeed passives and back to base, because 10 seconds is a long time in League of Legends (max Ashe stun is 3.5 seconds, and that feels like years). Bad positioning in a teamfight and the Irelia/Sion/Trynda caught you out? Nah, no problem, you get 10 seconds of free invulnerability and CC cLear to reposition or screw your team. And don't even get me started on backdooring.

GP gets it every like 15 seconds or so and he isn't really all that mobile unless he sets up his chain first (as I would know, I'be played him even before the rework). Vlad sacrifices 20% of his health. Tahm can't eat himself, and he's basically removed a key member of the team by doing so (I main Tahm as well, I've gotten so many 'wtf tahm I was string combo!?#?.......when they were at like 30% health and CCed). And Fizz- Fizz's is BS I'm not going to defend it. Oh yeah, and Bard's ult can lose games if used improperly.

Another insane thing about the ability is that it has the potential to cleanse CC that other's cant. DYK that you can't cleanse knockups? Well, because you also become untargetable in the process, you'll also counter Yas, Ori, Malph, and very other initiation in the game without even trying. It's simply overpowered, even if it only did that.

By 600 movespeed I meant the additional 50% she gets when switching forms. That's 100% bonus movepseed in total. And even just with her normal passive, she will be moving at 415is movepseed at level 1. That's just as crazy.

FACTS FACTS FACTS I LIKE FACTS AND YOU ARE STUPID Please. I've read your original post about 5 times now and in each of your responses you seem to change or add something each time. I'm still not wholly sure what your argument even is: are you trying to prove the W is balanced? Because your last 2 posts have been "my first post was right, read it again, also, you are a troll. I don't want to deal with your points so I'll just tell you to read it again." That's not how you have a discussion, sorry.

Now, on your next post, please explain to me (without calling me a troll very other line) how Recon Mode is balanced. Also without comparing it to balanced things like Karthus passive, Zhonyas, or the starting platform.

Edit: Even Fizz is only untargetable for like 1.5-2 seconds total. The trick is to bait it out.

dude if you don't like explain the changes that you would like, honestly from reading this one post ur just being arguementative, offer solutions to the problems you see or nothing will change

CoolKnightST2 votes

The strange thing about quin right now is how her ult works. Why not remove the secondary effect of her ult but remove the windup so her R is a pure utility ability. So:

  • W: Skystrike (currently the secondary effect of her ult)

Than when in valor form (you can't go in combat in this form):

  • Q: Some kind of movement boost (no damage)
  • W: Heightened Senses
  • E: An dash (no damage)

This means she an only use Heightened Senses while in her ult form. I honnestly think this will fit her better than they rework their now doing.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

"Q: Now reduces surrounding vision for one second" so like his thrashing around caused him to lose a few feathers and make a kind of dust feather cloud? OK! can multiple champs still be hit with this little AoE? and I assume that anyone that walks into this little AoE during its 1 sec active time will also be affected.

GetMariahCarried1 votes

LIKE Graves, but NOT a cloud (was tough to describe). For Valor, if you get hit, you take the lowered vision effect. But you either get hit initially when q is cast, or you don't. There's no subsequent effect on an area over a duration. Only an effect on the people who were initially attacked (in the same way the current blind is applied).

... or at least that's how I envisioned it. Alternative suggestions welcome.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

ok that makes sense

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Everything on the Passive appears to be fine except "Autoattacking is replaced with a 2-second-cooldown, enemy-mark ability. This mark is the same as Quinn's passive, but can be consumed by any ally."

I am worried about it. I think see what you did there to kinda help reduce Valors "sociopath assassin" or fighter identity by not allowing him to AA. I guess that I can assume that the enemy mark can now be manually placed on any neutral or enemy unit by clicking on a target every two seconds? This is at the same range as Quinn's AA range right? I would hope that because you are now the bird that IS the passive as Quinn that means you now have control of the passive. It would make sense for the support role you are trying to develop. But taking away an AA, and leaving Valor to rely on Abilities? By the way only 2 deal damage, is that really ok? I mean it really makes him super dependent on always needing help to take down an enemy, if Valor is alone he wont be much of a threat without AA, i mean its a basic part of the game. We can discuss this more if you want to defend your reasons.

GetMariahCarried1 votes

Well, my reasoning is that Valor isn't designed to take down an enemy by himself under this rework philosophy. That would be like nami solo-fighting someone to the death (not that that doesn't happen occasionally and makes me go "awwwwe yeeeaaahhhh" whenever Nami wins.) Of course, Nami still has auto-attacks, but this Valor rework is Support on steroids, so I REALLY dialed back non-utility uses in some crazy ways. You're right.

Keep in mind, he doesn't even really have two abilities to kill with either under my suggestions with the massive damage nerf to abilities that I described in the passive (maybe not the best place for me to put that? I kinda grouped all my damage loss descriptions under that one thing). I traded almost ALL his damage away for TONS of utility and, yeah, that may be pretty extreme. But I don't really mind extreme if it's a) still possible to balance, which I believe these ideas can be and b) still works for AN effective playstyle even if it wouldn't work for CURRENT playstyles (yeah, there's no non-auto playstyles right now. But there used to be no "control where your allies go" playstyles either, until Tahm Kench.)

A couple of side notes this brings up:

  1. When you switch back to Quinn, you can proc any passives you left on enemy champs from Valor mode that haven't dissipated. Plus I added passive traps from skystrike, which will probably hit the same enemies, Valor could position Quinn to do two additional passive procs on a single target, more on others and possibly several on multiple targets. Maybe you don't do much damage as Valor, but you now do more damage as Quinn when you switch back.

  2. Creep scoring. Valor doesn't really have any good way to creep-score in my tool-kit suggestions. And at lvl-6, if you ult, you're stuck as Valor for 30 seconds. That's 30 seconds of no creep scoring. But hey, maybe that's a good counter-mechanic, making my W suggestions less broken in context. It's a pretty unusual counter-mechanic though, as this all is, but it's why I'm not in a rush to change my original post with new numbers on W. Even if those numbers had ClockworkSheikah in an uproar, it's really hard to tell what all of this PUT TOGETHER does to balance. He misinterpreted some of those numbers anyway (which is why I'm a lot more concerned about thinking up a much simpler W. It's too confusing right now.)

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Well, my reasoning is that Valor isn't designed to take down an enemy by himself under this rework philosophy. That would be like nami solo-fighting someone to the death (not that that doesn't happen occasionally and makes me go "awwwwe yeeeaaahhhh" whenever Nami wins.) Of course, Nami still has auto-attacks, but this Valor rework is Support on steroids, so I REALLY dialed back non-utility uses in some crazy ways. You're right.

Keep in mind, he doesn't even really have two abilities to kill with either under my suggestions with the massive damage nerf to abilities that I described in the passive (maybe not the best place for me to put that? I kinda grouped all my damage loss descriptions under that one thing). I traded almost ALL his damage away for TONS of utility and, yeah, that may be pretty extreme. But I don't really mind extreme if it's a) still possible to balance, which I believe these ideas can be and b) still works for AN effective playstyle even if it wouldn't work for CURRENT playstyles (yeah, there's no non-auto playstyles right now. But there used to be no "control where your allies go" playstyles either, until Tahm Kench.)

A couple of side notes this brings up:

  1. When you switch back to Quinn, you can proc any passives you left on enemy champs from Valor mode that haven't dissipated. Plus I added passive traps from skystrike, which will probably hit the same enemies, Valor could position Quinn to do two additional passive procs on a single target, more on others and possibly several on multiple targets. Maybe you don't do much damage as Valor, but you now do more damage as Quinn when you switch back.

  2. Creep scoring. Valor doesn't really have any good way to creep-score in my tool-kit suggestions. And at lvl-6, if you ult, you're stuck as Valor for 30 seconds. That's 30 seconds of no creep scoring. But hey, maybe that's a good counter-mechanic, making my W suggestions less broken in context. It's a pretty unusual counter-mechanic though, as this all is, but it's why I'm not in a rush to change my original post with new numbers on W. Even if those numbers had ClockworkSheikah in an uproar, it's really hard to tell what all of this PUT TOGETHER does to balance. He misinterpreted some of those numbers anyway (which is why I'm a lot more concerned about thinking up a much simpler W. It's too confusing right now.)

Ok it all seem pretty clear now. But if you want others to understand I would make the tool tips more clear about how exactly you want each ability to work. That includes the exact description of how Q and E work together too, also move the notes and stuff not part of the ability description out to a notes section, even the parts where you say what official ability it is similar to

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Lol. Pretty sure he added the 10 seconds AFTER my post. What numbers are there to be misinterpreted anyways?

GetMariahCarried1 votes

Actually, no, I didn't. That BULLET cough has always been there. But, I even suggested a nerf to that in another BULLET cough in reply to you ANYWAY (5 seconds and a 36.5 second toggle charge time, leading to only one recon mode every 75 seconds). In addition, there's FIVE numbers in that W to "misinterpret". Now I understand. You didn't misinterpret. You just didn't read anything. Oh, and just to preempt a nonsense reply, I'll note: those 5 numbers were there before you wrote this.

Regardless, W's description has WAY too many bullets (yes, I'll disparage them) and that's half the problem. Given that recon always had a limited duration (yes, it really did, try not to feel shocked that you missed something. I'm frankly not surprised.), I probably shouldn't even describe it as a toggle, but as an over-time cast that you can interrupt by clicking W again at some point. Then I can get rid of those stupid "toggle charges" (that you basically need two of for both ways, which is weird) and the weird fact that, with Valor being a toggle already: yo dawg, I added a toggle to your toggle, so you can toggle while you toggle.

Feel free to use my future REAL edits to the original post as incontrovertible proof that I changed everything on you, whether I actually did or not. I'll just leave this here.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, no, I didn't. That BULLET cough has always been there. But, I even suggested a nerf to that in another BULLET cough in reply to you ANYWAY (5 seconds and a 36.5 second toggle charge time, leading to only one recon mode every 75 seconds). In addition, there's FIVE numbers in that W to "misinterpret". Now I understand. You didn't misinterpret. You just didn't read anything. Oh, and just to preempt a nonsense reply, I'll note: those 5 numbers were there before you wrote this.

Regardless, W's description has WAY too many bullets (yes, I'll disparage them) and that's half the problem. Given that recon always had a limited duration (yes, it really did, try not to feel shocked that you missed something. I'm frankly not surprised.), I probably shouldn't even describe it as a toggle, but as an over-time cast that you can interrupt by clicking W again at some point. Then I can get rid of those stupid "toggle charges" (that you basically need two of for both ways, which is weird) and the weird fact that, with Valor being a toggle already: yo dawg, I added a toggle to your toggle, so you can toggle while you toggle.

Feel free to use my future REAL edits to the original post as incontrovertible proof that I changed everything on you, whether I actually did or not. I'll just leave this here.

guys pls stop argueing this a kit that I think can be pretty viable with some tweaks and nerfs, but it wont get anywhere if we continue to argue

also " yo dawg, I added a toggle to your toggle, so you can toggle while you toggle." HAH funny, yo dawg i heard you liked toggels

GetMariahCarried1 votes

But... but... this is League... it wouldn't be the same without toxic raging. TT

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

But... but... this is League... it wouldn't be the same without toxic raging. TT

it would be a much better community without it, comon man u kno that, it starts with every person making the decision to make LoL a better place

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Ok so E is pretty much the same right? And it appears Q was left pretty much the same as well correct? Could you please elaborate on the exact differences for me (for clarity's sake)

I know that "Q can be cast during the E-dash" was added. So how does this work? Will Valor stop his dash and maybe attack with the Q in a larger area damaging and blind more units at once? Or will he do it for a quick sec and continue on? You know what would be cool? When Q is cast during E, he does a barrel roll releasing a small cloud of feathers that slowly drift to the ground and continues on his path. (so then Q becomes like a mini graves smokescreen)

GetMariahCarried1 votes

"E is pretty much the same right?"

Not really. It would hit multiple targets now. It's also a skillshot (wasn't before). It also goes through AND PASSED the enemy in question, instead of only right up to them. That was one of the danger points before. Before, E'ing Darius was like flying into the loving arms of a passionate axe murderer. Now, it's like flying PASSED the loving arms of a passionate axe murderer and saying, "no thanks, I don't like KFC". Hence why it's more juke-ish than before.

"And Q is pretty much the same as well correct?"

Blinds and vision loss are different. Blind = Teemo dart. Vision loss = Nocturne ult. I'm suggesting you add a one-second vision loss to those hit.

I'm basically trying to add to the cc of some of these abililties while dumping the damage. Sorry if the descriptions weren't clear.

"Or will he do it for a quick sec and continue on?"

I was thinking he'd continue on. The main dilemma in my mind though is timing. Current dash takes like a quarter second. That would be hard to pick the exact moment to Q. Maybe it's a slower dash? Or maybe if you click Q and E simultaneously, Q goes off at the first moment you're near an enemy during the dash? Or, heck, just leave it difficult? Ali-wq-combo mains incoming.

"You know what would be cool? When Q is cast during E, he does a barrel roll releasing a small cloud of feathers that slowly drift to the ground and continues on his path. (so then Q becomes like a mini graves smokescreen)"

I guess that's what you thought I meant earlier on the regular Q description. It actually wasn't, but adding it to E combo's would be nifty. If Valor goes bald though I'm blaming you >:(.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

For the W (finally, he stopped beating around the brush, and just face checked it) I actually like it a lot, and it matches Quinn's in a more interesting way, and makes sense. Problem: uneeded complextity

I would recommend getting rid of this: "Toggling consumes a "toggle charge" (like akali ult charges, for instance). Can hold up to 6 charges. Gain one charge every 30 seconds (while Quinn or Valor)." Reason: lets just say that the "Toggle cooldown: 3 seconds" is enough and that Valor need to rest between each toggle. Also may consider increasing toggle from CD (only when he has switched from Recon to Dive, so the ability to toggle back to Recon takes much longer) due to what comes next...

10 sec untargetablity is pretty OP, but you can't do anything either, so I guess it balances out? Would consider reducing that time in Recon Mode.

Also get rid of: "Switching from Dive clears all cc. (juke stat #1)" i think its OP, like a GP orange, except a much lower CD, just soft CC and Airborne is enough, the other hard CC makes sense that you cant use abilities even Recon

"has vision within 800 range" I am super happy that you reduced the vision range (officially called Sight radius). I think that it is one of the perfect drawbacks to such a powerful non-ult ability. Of course it "moves with you" thats how sight radius works on him before the update. What do you mean by "has no duration" when Recon Mode ends your sight radius would go back to normal I DO NOT think that he should be able to see into bushes tho, but keeping the ability to see over a wall within the sight radius would be OK.

"is visible by all enemy champs" another great draw back, because even if he could fly away over a wall, he would be so high that they could still see him

still tho that is a lot of ground covered with that increased MS and the ability to go over walls. I would say that there needs to be a delay in cast time when going from Dive to Recon, so maybe get rid of "Switching requires zero channel time. (juke stat #2)"

Also drastically increased CD when going from Recon to Dive. And a reduced Recon time; seriously more like 5-7 sec, cause its pretty powerful

for Dive mode " untargettable state (it's a falcon dive bruh. Juke stat #4)." an additional untargettable state after 10 or even 5-7 sec is overkill (im sorry that was harsh, but it does toe the line) and it hardly matters. I would suggest removing that for balance and counter play reasons (pls dont think im heartless for saying that). The second that Recon mode ends before Valor even visually swoops down he should be target-able, sure he is moving fast but there are people who in this world (our normal world with some slightly above normal people compared to the LoL champions) who can redirect a bullet with a sword, so I think a Falcon diving is not so fast enough that someone who sees it coming couldnt deal some damage to it.

to augment his lack of AA, maybe consider giving Dive mode an initial damage component. such as Dive Mode: Valor selects an area of the ground. After a 2 sec channel Valor swoops down to the battlefield to dealing damage to enemy units in that area and gaining 50% movespeed for 0.75 sec. Last indefinitely.

Finally pls consider changing Dive mode to Action Mode

Also you really need to add your notes on each ability either after each ability or at the final end, cause it really clutters things up, most people will want the bare bones first and explanation later, it helps in digesting the information.

FINAL POSSIBLE RESULTS OF W SUGGESTIONS

W: Heightened Senses - Toggles Valor's Flight Style Recon Mode - CD 3 sec: after a 2 sec delay Valor soars above the battlefield able to pass walls for up to 5 seconds. This clears soft CC and Airborne effects to become untargettable but unable to deal damage. He becomes visible to all champions and his sight radius is reduced to 800 units, but he can see over walls. He can still mark targets. Action Mode - CD 17 sec: Valor selects an area of the ground. After a 1.5 sec delay Valor swoops down to the battlefield to deal damage in that area and gains 50% MS for 0.75 sec. No Duration.

W Notes: this is where "tanking" comes in the form of massive juking; 1.) while in Recon Mode is untargettable, 2.) Switching from Action clears soft cc and Airborne 3.) MS buffs. Basically You're like a fast-moving, player-controlled scrying orb. "It's a bird!" "It's a plane!" "We're ****ed..." Action Mode is basically NORMAL mode, giving you the rest of Valor's kit without the recon passives

pls tell me if i missed anything

GetMariahCarried1 votes

Yeah, I'm getting rid of the toggle charges. This shouldn't be described as a toggle mode.

"10 sec untargetablity is pretty OP, but you can't do anything either, so I guess it balances out? Would consider reducing that time in Recon Mode."

Been on my mind as well. I've been thinkin' 5 seconds for a while.

"Also get rid of: "Switching from Dive clears all cc. (juke stat #1)" i think its OP, like a GP orange, except a much lower CD, just soft CC and Airborne is enough, the other hard CC makes sense that you cant use abilities even Recon"

I was thinking of reducing it to roots, silences, and fears, but not taunts, slows, stuns, suppresses (I'm thinkin' like a Smite player. Smite doesn't categorize these things and the its types of cc-blocking are numerous.) Basically, Valor can clear things that aren't "bird knocked out on a window", "concussion" type cc's. Things that wouldn't hold a bird of prey down.

But another thought that came to mind: The same way there's a channel time to dive, add a channel time to recon mode that Valor can't interrupt, but others can interrupt with additional hard cc. So you DO still clear all CC, but you're stuck in one position unable to act for - I don't know, 1 second or 2 seconds? - anyway and can be cc'd right back into trouble again. I'm gonna make it a one second channel both ways.

"I DO NOT think that he should be able to see into bushes tho, but keeping the ability to see over a wall within the sight radius would be OK."

I think he should still see into a bush that he's directly ABOVE (He's technically IN the bush under those circumstances, based on 2d map coordinates) but maybe remove the ranged bush vision. I'll probably change the description to "800 sight range and can see over walls." and assume visibility in bushes you're "in" is implied.

"still tho that is a lot of ground covered with that increased MS and the ability to go over walls. I would say that there needs to be a delay in cast time when going from Dive to Recon, so maybe get rid of "Switching requires zero channel time. (juke stat #2)"

It's less move speed than Valor has now, but I did feel like the ground cover might be too much. And yes, as stated earlier, ditto on that zero channel time.

"Also drastically increased CD when going from Recon to Dive. And a reduced Recon time; seriously more like 5-7 sec, cause its pretty powerful."

Keep in mind, you can only cast recon 3 times in a row. But I was thinking that was one too many cc breaks in a teamfight too. I'd still like two swift dive bomb maneuvers in a teamfight. So I'm gonna change it to two charges max on W, one charge every 30 seconds.

"for Dive mode " untargettable state (it's a falcon dive bruh. Juke stat #4)." an additional untargettable state after 10 or even 5-7 sec is overkill (im sorry that was harsh, but it does toe the line) and it hardly matters. "

Lol, that's not harsh. But actually it DOES matter. Think about this: If a Panth ult-"swoops" in, everybody scatters (because damage) and also, well, it's a fighter. But when a squish "swoops" in? I said there's a 2 second dive time which I want to leave there for enemy counterplay, but I don't want this to turn into "Okay guys, enemy Valor is landing. X marks the spot. Gather around folks. Dinner time!" Basically, that "swoop-in" would be counter-played out of existence without something to protect it. But I was thinking it didn't need any noticable duration, since you can E the moment you land to get out of danger if need be. So I think I'm changing that to 0.25 or 0.5 seconds untargettability, just so you're not insta-gibbed every time before you can even cast E.

"Falcon diving is not so fast enough that someone who sees it coming couldnt deal some damage to it."

This aint any Falcon... this is Valor yo. Plus, the "dinner time" point made earlier. I'm nerfing it, but I'm not removing it.

"to augment his lack of AA, maybe consider giving Dive mode an initial damage component."

Well, I'm trying to avoid the damage. I didn't just replace AA's with passive marking because I thought it was cool. I was legitimately trying to get away from directly inflicted damage. But HOW much I did that is, I know, pretty crazy. I wanted to leave room for plenty of OP utility. So, I'll leave damage as it is for now in the original post. Interesting thought though.

"Finally pls consider changing Dive mode to Action Mode"

I probably won't even use the term "mode" when I've edited it, so this may be irrelevant. But, you're right, I picked a name at random, knowing it was iffy.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I'm getting rid of the toggle charges. This shouldn't be described as a toggle mode.

"10 sec untargetablity is pretty OP, but you can't do anything either, so I guess it balances out? Would consider reducing that time in Recon Mode."

Been on my mind as well. I've been thinkin' 5 seconds for a while.

"Also get rid of: "Switching from Dive clears all cc. (juke stat #1)" i think its OP, like a GP orange, except a much lower CD, just soft CC and Airborne is enough, the other hard CC makes sense that you cant use abilities even Recon"

I was thinking of reducing it to roots, silences, and fears, but not taunts, slows, stuns, suppresses (I'm thinkin' like a Smite player. Smite doesn't categorize these things and the its types of cc-blocking are numerous.) Basically, Valor can clear things that aren't "bird knocked out on a window", "concussion" type cc's. Things that wouldn't hold a bird of prey down.

But another thought that came to mind: The same way there's a channel time to dive, add a channel time to recon mode that Valor can't interrupt, but others can interrupt with additional hard cc. So you DO still clear all CC, but you're stuck in one position unable to act for - I don't know, 1 second or 2 seconds? - anyway and can be cc'd right back into trouble again. I'm gonna make it a one second channel both ways.

"I DO NOT think that he should be able to see into bushes tho, but keeping the ability to see over a wall within the sight radius would be OK."

I think he should still see into a bush that he's directly ABOVE (He's technically IN the bush under those circumstances, based on 2d map coordinates) but maybe remove the ranged bush vision. I'll probably change the description to "800 sight range and can see over walls." and assume visibility in bushes you're "in" is implied.

"still tho that is a lot of ground covered with that increased MS and the ability to go over walls. I would say that there needs to be a delay in cast time when going from Dive to Recon, so maybe get rid of "Switching requires zero channel time. (juke stat #2)"

It's less move speed than Valor has now, but I did feel like the ground cover might be too much. And yes, as stated earlier, ditto on that zero channel time.

"Also drastically increased CD when going from Recon to Dive. And a reduced Recon time; seriously more like 5-7 sec, cause its pretty powerful."

Keep in mind, you can only cast recon 3 times in a row. But I was thinking that was one too many cc breaks in a teamfight too. I'd still like two swift dive bomb maneuvers in a teamfight. So I'm gonna change it to two charges max on W, one charge every 30 seconds.

"for Dive mode " untargettable state (it's a falcon dive bruh. Juke stat #4)." an additional untargettable state after 10 or even 5-7 sec is overkill (im sorry that was harsh, but it does toe the line) and it hardly matters. "

Lol, that's not harsh. But actually it DOES matter. Think about this: If a Panth ult-"swoops" in, everybody scatters (because damage) and also, well, it's a fighter. But when a squish "swoops" in? I said there's a 2 second dive time which I want to leave there for enemy counterplay, but I don't want this to turn into "Okay guys, enemy Valor is landing. X marks the spot. Gather around folks. Dinner time!" Basically, that "swoop-in" would be counter-played out of existence without something to protect it. But I was thinking it didn't need any noticable duration, since you can E the moment you land to get out of danger if need be. So I think I'm changing that to 0.25 or 0.5 seconds untargettability, just so you're not insta-gibbed every time before you can even cast E.

"Falcon diving is not so fast enough that someone who sees it coming couldnt deal some damage to it."

This aint any Falcon... this is Valor yo. Plus, the "dinner time" point made earlier. I'm nerfing it, but I'm not removing it.

"to augment his lack of AA, maybe consider giving Dive mode an initial damage component."

Well, I'm trying to avoid the damage. I didn't just replace AA's with passive marking because I thought it was cool. I was legitimately trying to get away from directly inflicted damage. But HOW much I did that is, I know, pretty crazy. I wanted to leave room for plenty of OP utility. So, I'll leave damage as it is for now in the original post. Interesting thought though.

"Finally pls consider changing Dive mode to Action Mode"

I probably won't even use the term "mode" when I've edited it, so this may be irrelevant. But, you're right, I picked a name at random, knowing it was iffy.

YAAAAASSSS : "been thinkin' 5 seconds for a while." thanks for understanding, tho im sure a lot of people would straight up say less or time, or even saying that going over 2 walls in a row is broken (some peeps would like that valor stay a low flyer), but this is much better than before.

"I was thinking of reducing it to roots, silences, and fears, but not taunts, slows, stuns, suppresses" Just limiting it all to soft CC makes W less gamebreaking and less confusing. Soft CC includes Slow, Blinds, Disarms, and Roots, they are specifically coded to allow for abilities to be cast. Any other type of Hard CC has to be dealt with, (due to the games coding rules) and it would be unhealthy for Valor to be able to instantly get rid of them and go into an extended unhittable mode. 5 sec is already pushing it mate, but with a delayed cast time (channel), and the other disadvantages that you have tacked on, it may start to balance out, but I encourage to to limit CC cleansing to only soft CC.

"I'm gonna make it a one second channel both ways." Thats is nice it allows for counterplay because after the ability is cast Valor cannot immediately go into the air. Does he retain MS, or does he have to be still?

GetMariahCarried1 votes

Well, I didn't QUITE make all those changes in my final edits (the original post is edited now. Check it out.) But I did make most of them, and some others I hadn't thought about yet when I replied earlier.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Finally how can you get Tag Team and Sky Strike at the same time?

GetMariahCarried1 votes

Huh? You don't. (Oh right, it's probably the fact that I said this was a Valor toolkit rework. Which I don't think will be a source of confusion anyway, so I can probably remove that comment. While we're NOT editing Quinn toolkit TECHNICALLY, we still have to edit Tag Team since, well, that's a toggle to Valor, and therefore technically part of Valor mechanics.)

SexySoapTurtle1 votes

Its a good thing this kit will never happen LOL

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

"I think he should still see into a bush that he's directly ABOVE (He's technically IN the bush under those circumstances, based on 2d map coordinates)" it makes since, but it could also count as a nice disadvantage to not have that, that would be a reason for him to come down. Not making an official suggestion right now, but keep that in mind. "but maybe remove the ranged bush vision." good idea

"Keep in mind, you can only cast recon 3 times in a row. But I was thinking that was one too many cc breaks in a teamfight too. I'd still like two swift dive bomb maneuvers in a teamfight. So I'm gonna change it to two charges max on W, one charge every 30 seconds.

I thought you were getting rid of the Charges part? Well I guess that was if it was a toggle right? Now its not so you brought the charges back huh? Heres and idea to compromise: First a mini CD between cast, second the Second charge of the ability should last for a much shorter duration.

Remove "in-place" on W's channel, all channels are normally scripted to stop the player and force them to remain still and unable to cast other abilities, unless specifically coded to allow for one of those things. Remove " but is interrupted by hard cc" for same reason as above.

"Channel cannot be canceled" This is the whole point of a channel, it allows for counterplay, its more than just a delayed cast, it allows an enemy to stop an action that they would not want. I really think that you should let the channel be canceled, first because its pretty short so its not bad, but also unlike some other abilities that make the champion untargetable, its way more balanced, especially since his unhittablity is the longest in the game.

ive got more suggestions..., but fo now

W: Reconnaissance: Valor breaks soft cc, after a 1-sec channel, soars above the battlefield for 7 seconds. Can be ended early after 2 seconds. Holds 2 charges. 2nd Charge duration of flight is reduced to 2.5 sec. Gain one charge every 30 seconds (while Quinn or Valor).

Upon returning to the battlefield after another 1-second, in-place channel, Valor has 50% bonus move speed for 0.75 seconds and is untargettable for 0.25 seconds. While above the battlefield, Valor

is untargettable has 800 vision range can move over and see over walls cannot cast Q or E loses untargettability for 0.5 seconds whenever basic attacking is visible to all enemy champs ("It's a bird!" "It's a plane!" "We're screwed...")

also you post is looking MUCH better and clearer now, really gud job there

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Ok so casting W after being in Recon is like Panth's ulty, ok i got it. It will be a short channel and no damage, got it. Also He should screech, enemies should also hear him coming. Im still urging a further nerf of duration down to 5.

and I know know and acknowleged that W is no longer a Toggle, it is in short: A 1 sec channeled ability that allows him to fly above walls untargetable with a reduced sight radius for a short duration. And on second cast or when the duration ends there is another channel before he comes back down.

Question when you say Channel cannot be canceled, you mean by Valor him self. Ex - Recasting W will start the channel but once started entering another move command will not stop the channel correct? I guess I misunderstood that before, I thought that you meant that an enemy could not stop the channel, my bad.

"Channel cannot be canceled, but is interrupted by hard cc" you mean on the way down right? But isnt he already untargetable? no one can hit him until the channel is over for him to come down anyways.

"Can be ended early after 2 seconds." could change this to a Static CD.

Still don't think that he needs to be untargetable when switching between Recon and regular flight. He already is moving faster than any other champion, especial during the dive. Also an enemy champion that is trying to hit him will not know exactly where he will land, even if they are trying to get right under him. His dive speed boost will help him juke enough (if you dont think so then just add some MS to the dive).

SUGGESTED EDITS AND RESULT

W: Reconnaissance: 2 charges/ Static CD: 2 sec/ Gain one charge every 40 seconds (while Quinn or Valor). 1st Cast: Valor removes soft cc. After a 1-second channel, and flies above the battlefield over walls for 5 seconds reducing his sight radius to 800 units, able to see over walls. Valor becomes untargettable, visible to all enemy champs and cannot cast Q or E. He loses untargettability for 2 sec whenever AA'ing. 2nd Cast: after a 1 sec channel Valor screeches and returns to the battlefield gaining 75% bonus move speed for 0.75 seconds.

add ignores unit collision to E, you want him to fly through, or over enemies right? But make sure that everyone knows that he cannot go over walls with this, thats for Recon.

starting to get the gist of this. I understand now it really is a support kit, kinda like a Bard or Zilean kit where only one spell does damage and the rest provides some kind of utility. Ok the next thing that needs to be done is developing Valor's support focus. From what I can see it appears that Valor will be helping to ward and gain vision of the map and location of enemies. I think that is super cool. Can he mark neutral targets too? This is seen in the Marks of the passive, if he marks and enemy that will show them to them to his team. Also of course W. Q is nice because it plays the opposite side for enemies by reducing sight. And I have an idea for E: allies passed during the dash gain a slight MS buff for 5 sec if they follow Valor. This will help allies lagging behind catch up to the enemy that Valor has seen.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

at a minimum i would like to see "E: (Quinn) dashes in a straight line, damaging, interrupting, and slowing all enemies in the path. Q can be cast during the E-dash and does not interrupt the dash." Implemented as the new E for when Valor is carrying Quinn in the rework.

Also it would be nice while using the Ult that every other AA activates the Mark.

DUUUUUUDE you know would be sooo nice with the reworked Quinn if when reactivating R, Valor tosses Quinn up in the air becoming untargetable for 1 sec. It makes since because then those arrows just don't come from no where

GetMariahCarried1 votes

I just saw that they're adding a reduced vision to Quinn's Q on the PBE. Interestiiiiing. I had some ideas for how to combine some of these Valor kit ideas with Riot's current Valor ult style to get the best of both worlds, but I kinda lost the mental energy to continue pursuing this line of thinking. Maybe I'll revisit this thread some time this week to post my thoughts, since Riot's already moving one of Quinn's abilities in the direction I was thinking for valor's kit. IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME... sort of...

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