Veigar' Dark Matter

Shiznyte·Oct 18, 2017·4 votes·615 views

This skill has a 1 to 1 AP ratio (on a champion with INFINITE AP scaling), 900 Range (112.5 Radius), gets down to a 2-3 second CD, and is AoE. Many people have been having issues with Veigar and I think the issue lies here. Some may say it's his stun, but with Merc Treds or QSS you have some wiggle room to outplay it, His Ult while is very strong is only single target and was changed to an execute so he cannot just cast it to 1 shot someone. And his Q while is very good, has some short range so most back liners should be able to steer clear of it. The Dark Matter is dodgable, but it's extremely hard to avoid in Team Fights where its near impossible to see with all the other animations going on around the fight. IMO the ratio should be looked at because he is nuking Squishies as well as Tanks hitting 2-3 targets at a time in most cases in chaotic team fights. Very Few mages have 100% AP ratios and for a good reason...

16 Comments

Very Hard EngageOct 18, 20172 votes

but then you realize. with its 1.2s delay you have to be literally cc'd into oblivion or have the awareness of a baboon to ever get hit by it. not even minions can BS the enemy player into getting hit by it.

ShiznyteOct 18, 20171 votes

Pretty sure i said yes while you can avoid it... but in a 5v5 team fight late game it's extremely hard to see that shadow with all the chaos going on...

Kai GuyOct 18, 20172 votes

People with a bad matchup vs him really need to consider summoner 1 over summoner 7 and summoner 21 . Just my 2cents as a long time Veigar player.

ShiznyteOct 18, 20171 votes

Totally agree! summoner 1 for a Champion with low mobility or summoner 21 for ADC's

Taliyah RocksOct 18, 20171 votes

You forget that this spell is probably the easiest to avoid in the game, it has a massive delay, the only way he should ever be able to hit you with it is by stunning you, and if he only has one point in is E, the stun's duration is relatively short and can still be possibly avoided.

While it is true that in chaotic lategame teamfights it is hard to track his Dark Matter, it can still be tracked and easily avoided if aware of it. Better and more experienced players will also have a easier time keep track of it in teamfights, which is why Veigar is often considered a strong pick in low elo, but weak in higher.

Also he is much like Nasus, very weak early game, he literally represents no threat until level 6. Banshee will screw him. While some champions are early game bullies, Veigar's only goal is to be a late game carry.

ShiznyteOct 18, 20171 votes

Pretty sure i said yes while you can avoid it... but in a 5v5 team fight late game it's extremely hard to see that shadow with all the chaos going on...

ZerdunOct 18, 20171 votes

Yea.. its pretty easy to dodge the tetris block tbh. Its not like his giant stun circle has a delay or that giant falling rock fails to have a drop time. Besides that you know you can set his AP scaling behind by harassing him, ganking him or just by playing zed, fizz, talon, Kassadin.... well just about any assassin.

ShiznyteOct 18, 20171 votes

yes a late game champion does have weaknesses early on we all know this. but at the end of a game would you rather have zed/ talon or veigar? Seekers / zhyonas will save him from an AD assassin and fizz, Kass I agree will do well (but he will not shut him down early because he is also bad early on) but he is a monster always anyways. My point is at the end of the game Veigar is doing way to much damage (and i mentioned what skill is doing to much and the reason why it is doing so much) and farming and playing safe early on is easier than you maybe giving credit. I play a fair amount of Veigar and yeah certain match ups like a Syndra can give him trouble because of her range and damage, but most melee / AD match ups are pretty easy to survive if you just rush seekers and play safe.

ZerdunOct 18, 20171 votes

Playing too safe also removes your ability to get the double q stack proc. Which in turn makes more of a balancing game for Veigar and forces interactions with the lane. Is he doing too much damage? I think that's debatable in our current meta where its quite common to have adcs crit for 900 twice every three seconds minimum. Like if players wanna stand on the fire from the heavens and effectively eat something along the range of 900+ damage when the Veigar has reached critical mass then that's more of a skills problem for the team (not diving / focusing the mage or looking for picks away from him correctly). You should be punished for it. Its not like Veigar's abilities don't have relatively prohibitive mana costs attached to them during the laning phase in order to balance this all out.

FWIW : Veigar is one of the few mages left that can consistently hit 1k AP and do serious damage like the current ADCs do. For what reason should a fragile burst mage with VERY CLEAR strengths and weaknesses be nerfed. Outside from what you claim, which is in a team fight. This can be countered with the fact that EVERY champion and their abilities are harder to read in a team fight.

ShiznyteOct 18, 20171 votes

good thing you can stack Q's on over extended champions who are trying to harass you down a bunch i guess... and yes if you compare him too the Broken ADC's which we all know are doing way to much damage veigar is slightly less... compare him to the mages and you may have different results. If he drops a monster W in team fights ever 2-3 seconds he can be easily doing 800-1200 damage on multiple targets. Dont compare him to ADC's which we know are broken compare him to other mid lane mages and you will see his damage is off the charts.

Around999PeopleOct 18, 20172 votes

We all? I don't know they're broken. Proof?

ShiznyteOct 18, 20171 votes

lol nice meme dude!

Kai GuyOct 18, 20171 votes

Well... damage is not exactly the end all be all. Karthus has the highest average of damge in every elo source . he does not have infinite scaling even.

Just for some perspective.

In Bronze he is close to 4k damage above the 2nd place about 5k over the leader adc KogMaw and 7k over Veigar .

Silver 3-4k over #2 Ziggs 4-5k over Koggles again and 7k on veig.

Gold Karthus has around a 2k lead over.... himself....(yes mid and top karthus are the #1 and #2 top damage dealers in gold... and every mmr to come.Ziggs is 3rd with a gap of about 4k, and then its 4k lead over adc... koggles once more. again beats veig around 7k.

Plat. double karth, #1 beats #3 champ, ziggs again. By 3k and beats adc by about 4k (still koggles. ge golly gosh %hp must result in high damage whoda thunk it.) Veigar still behind by 7k.

Plat +. 1 and 2 karth. beats ziggs by about 3k, koggles adc leader and beats him by about 4k, and once again its close to a 7k gap for veigar.

ZerdunOct 18, 20171 votes

so you force him to make a choice when you harass him? CS and more stacks VS harass and 1 stack? sounds legit. unless your talking about someone going full ape and eating q after q after q... That is a player skill issue. In addition to the summoner alternatives players can also build item 3814 item 3102 or item 3140 / item 3139 because there's CLEARLY no itemization that helps vs this shenanigans.. Hell I've built QSS vs veigars who can land stun well even without the intention of building merc sim because its not good for my champion. just so i can end him and give my team the w.

ShiznyteOct 18, 20171 votes

he can kill minions and harass champions with Q at the same time... i never said it was easy but it is very possible. if someone is going to try and poke you down an harass you all game chances are pretty good you can harass them back. I never said you would win early i said you can survive and stack! item 3157 will save veigar in almost any teamfight vs an assassin or carry who builds the items you have listed. And as i stated before the Stun is not the problem on veigar, I listed many ways to deal with it. This issue was about the Dark Matter W and its damage / Scaling and how hard it is to dodge in late game team fights so lets try to stick with that please.

ZerdunOct 18, 20171 votes

That has EVERYTHING to do with the enemy not knowing how to position themselves then, generally you stand below or above the minion line so when he goes to CS you harass him and make him chose to see if his q hits minions or the enemy champion.

EVERY Veigar will do their best to survive and stack that's LITERALLY his game plan. Its around playing according to that and understanding what veigar does in order to do you best to deny Veigar where you can. I have deliberately missed cs to let an enemy veigar's wave push closer to my turret in order to deny him both farm and Q. Because if he does come in he risks death if your team knows what your doing and your friendly neighborhood jungler comes ans says hi. EVERYBODY knows Veigar stacks and therefore he becomes a priority target so he has like 5 deaths @ 15-20 minutes.

item 3157 will not save Veigar every time like you believe either. assassins flank and do not necessarily have to all in to force a trinket which leads to a double switch on targets as it goes on and off. Plus ive seen good assassins literally chunk 2/3rd or more out of a Veigar forcing him out of the fight (or risking death) with a minor rotation. or even out right destroying him in a combo. item 3157 honestly isnt even THAT good of an item considering the 2 minute CD and the relatively lackluster AP you get for it. does the Utility help? yes! will it save you if the item 3147 champ decides to all in you because you were caught? Probably not. Because that assassin flanked if they had half a brain so you literally have to rely your team to peel after that. Which probably wont happen as much because its currently a babysit your adc meta. If only the assassin dives its also a bad play by the assassin. most times Veigars gonna get whacked with some poke before the dive so he can then get obliterated.

If it was not like this you would see him have a way higher pick rate in plat and above. Veigar currently holds about a 3% pick rate according to OP.GG in comparison to more common champions like say Orianna sitting at 13%