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Kindred is (are?) the worst champion in the game: Change My Mind

zeskgames··4 votes·3,349 views

I have the solemn belief that Kindred: The Eternal Hunters are the worst champion in all of League of Legends. In this list I want to detail a few reasons why I think so, and what I think could be done to make them better. 1. The Passive: On paper, Kindred has an amazing passive. Get stacks by killing certain champions and/or monsters, those stacks enhance your other abilities and every 4 stacks increases Kindred's attack range. Sounds great right? Wrong. Kindred's passive is like communism, it sounds great on paper but when you read between the lines you see how horrible it is. Firstly everyone on the map and their grandma can see where Kindred's hunts are, for some reason. So, how do you play against Kindred? Simple, just check to see where their next mark is, grab a teammate or two, wait for them to show up and, ta-dah, free kill. If I had a dollar for every-time I went into to enemy jg to just to get ambushed by two or three enemies sitting in a nearby bush, I'd probably only have like 34-ish dollars, but it still happened a lot. The Solution: I have two for the passive; A. Make some of the early hunts spawn in Kindred's jungle. Why do I have to risk my neck going super deep into enemy territory to get stacks that are ESSENTIAL to my play style? That's like having Nasus only able to stack if he's in the enemy base. Why not throw Kindred players (all 7 of them) a bone and have some of the earlier hunts spawn in the player's jungle? And maybe after 3 or 4 successful hunts then they spawn in the enemy jungle? Or B. If A is to extreme for you how about this, make it so that enemies, ya know, CAN'T see the HUNTS? If jungle-camp-based hunts were not on the mini-map, it would allow Kindred to actually counter-jungle without the threat of being insta-bodied as soon as they get to the mark. The marks are essential to their kit, but people use them to set traps and rake in the free kills, so what's even the point? It feels like the game itself is trying to get you killed. Think of it like this, what if every time Evelyn went invisible, her position was marked on the mini-map for everyone to see? Seem fair to you?

2. The Ultimate: Kindred's ultimate, without sugar coating at all, is terrible. My main gripe with the ultimate is why does it make enemies invincible? Does Kayle have the option of Ulting her opponent? No, Does Kled Ult speed up enemies? No, Does Soraka heal everyone on the map? No, Can Yasuo Ult damage teammates? No. I could go on for every single champion Ult in the game but you get the point. Kindred's ultimate is in most situations actually more advantageous to their opponents than it is for their own team. The Solution: Make the invincibility and heal for teammates only, that's right I said it. I know some people would think that's broken, but I would say the following. "If you think Kindred's ult being teammate only would be busted, then how come I don't see you complaining about Soraka ultimate not healing enemies?" Other ultimates don't effect both teams the same way, so why does Kindreds?

Conclusion: Counter-play is good and essential for all champions to be balanced, but Kindred is a perfect example of a champion having to much counter-play, and enemy players can and will take advantage of it. As long as Kindred is in this state they will continue to be in the bottom of the barrel and almost never see any play outside of a few weirdos who like their play-style and general theme (like me). But, as I said in the title, I am open to discussion, so if you think you can, change my mind.

25 Comments

Chembaron Yamada6 votes

Kindreds ultimate is not the only one affecting both teams equally. Bard Taliyah

And making the invincibility just for Kindreds team is an absolute no-go. Think for a moment about the consequences here:

  • towerdiving with Kindred becomes absurdly easy, since the enemy can't jump into their ult to save themselves from death. Meaning that you get a big time window to kill the enemy under tower and then hopping away with a bag of gold and a free stack
  • after level 6, contesting objecives against Kindred would become almost impossible. It wouldn't affect dragons/baron anymore, you can't kill Kindreds team in that time, but Kindreds team can easily kill your jungler if he dares to go for a smite-fight
  • extreme teamfighting potential, we are talking about 5 man invincibility here. And unlike Tarics, which makes his team invincible, Kindreds ultimate is instant, while Taric has a long and highly telegraphed built up

They would have to gut their ultimate after this change, decreasing the duration, giving it a long windup like Tarics ultimate, etc. I don't think you would really want that.

zeskgames1 votes

Here are my counter-points to the consequences you raised;

  • I will admit you have a point about the tower-diving, but think about this, in order for Kindred's ult to completely encapsulate a tower's radius, they have to be standing in the center of the tower. Meaning Kindred would have to waltz under tower without the opponent retreating or hitting them with CC in order to use the invincibility to it's fullest extent. Also Kindred has no hard CC, so people could do the same thing they would if hit by Jarvan ult, just flash or use a dash (lord knows every single champ has one these days) to get out of the radius and to safety.

  • Well, Kayle is already in the game and she can contest objectives in the same way and no one is complaining.

  • I can think of two other champs with big, team-fight winning AOE ultimates, Neeko and Illaoi, and with Kindred in a team fight people can do the exact same thing. Just walk away, wait for the ult to end, and jump right back in. Or they could use champs like Blitzcrank, Camile, or Tristana to yank team members out of the circle and kill them.

Also in your post you say "they would have to gut their ultimate after this change", and honestly I'd be fine with that. Because I'd rather have an ultimate that gives a small advantage to my team, than an ultimate that gives a big advantage to both teams. Honestly I could think of a few changes that could work, maybe make it so all ally champs take reduced damage in the radius, then a big heal. Or make it so it just is a big heal, or give a big wind up to the ultimate, whatever I'm game.

Finally, you give the examples of Bard and Taliyah of ults that effect both teams. Since Taliyah's ult is terrain like Jarvan, Yorick, and Aniva I'm going to disregard it for now. Now Bard and Kindred are both champs whose ults I have issue with. I'm still of the belief that ults should NEVER give a positive effect to enemies, it just doesn't make sense to me. That'd be like the US constructing fallout shelters for everyone in Hiroshima before detonation, it's just not a good way to win. I also ask myself the question of "why do Bard and Kindred ults effect both players, while Soraka is running around with a global, no strings attached heal for allies only?" To me champions like Bard and Kindred are examples of Riot designing unfairly, making certain champs weaker than others on purpose. But that could be delving into conspiracy theory territory.

(Edit 1: Finally got the bullet points to line up)

Quepha4 votes

The ultimate is about the only part of the kit that I like because it's weird, situational, niche, and really evokes the life/death idea of the character. Everything else in their kit, however, is really dull and boring and completely fails to sell Kindred as a duo, you simply feel like you're playing Lamb.

In terms of balance it seems like they're a pretty big failure too. It seems like Riot has to take the natural systems in the game and make them bend over backwards to give Kindred a decent power curve and they can go from broken to useless at every stage of the game every other patch depending on very minor changes. It seems like it must be brutal to be someone who likes playing Kindred when you might want to spend half a season avoiding ranked because you auto-lose, and then the rest of the season praying you don't get banned out because no one can stand to play against them.

zeskgames1 votes

I get where you're coming from in terms of the Ultimate. It is probably one of the most unique ults in the game. But the problem is that it's a little to niche, if that makes any sense. It kind of feels like Riot wanted to make an ult that "looked cool" and was "different" rather than one that was actually any good. I also think you are correct in the fact that Kindred is one of the most "coin-flip" champs in the game. It's either they do really well and stomp everyone from the get go or they get completely and utterly destroyed by the 5 minute mark. I have never seen a Kindred just do "meh" it's either they are great or garbage, no in between.

cars3n3 votes

I don't think Kindred's marks are an issue, coming from a kindred player. They put a giant target on the map, yes, so instead of letting the team trap YOU, outmaneuver and outsmart the enemies while they're focused on the mark. If my mark is on red side krugs and top is looking bad, of course i'm not forced to go pick it up. Instead, while the enemy jungle beelines to the mark, I'm going to go clear their entire bot side along with dragon. Tracking the enemy jungler is even easier when the marks are there because they disappear soon after taken (makes kindred easier to track too, not really a big issue) so you can go gank without the threat of being countered and pick up a mark from a lane instead. Don't fight over marks if you can't, just trade something even better. [galio-happy]

Quepha1 votes

This sounds like some of the reason that Kindred's balance state is so variable depending on small changes to the game. Is losing a mark worth dragon? what if it's a cloud drake? a kill from a gank? or blue buff? a couple tower plates? pushing someone out of lane? The answers to these questions change every couple patches based on some really obscure math, and whether Kindred is strong enough to contest when they want the mark also rides on a razor's edge. It might make her more boring but maybe her power would be more stable if stacks weren't worth as much and Kindred instead just had more baseline power from levels, so a stack could just be seen as a nice bonus but not really worth planning around.

zeskgames1 votes

I understand your point about playing mind games, but that feels more like an effect than a cause if you know what I mean. To me, despite what you say, it still feels like this part of the passive is giving to much agency to the enemy team. It feels like its to much counter play. Think of it like this what if going invisible as Eve/Twitch/Rengar/Teemo marked your location on the mini-map for enemies to see? It would completely invalidate the use of that ability. That's what if feels like with Kindred passive, marking their location for enemies to yoink completely invalidates having a passive in the first place.

Side note, since you are probably a more experienced Kindred player than I (that's not sarcasm I swear), I wanted to ask you about the idea of having the first 3 or 4 marks spawning in ally-controlled jungle instead of just enemy jungle? Do you think that would be to much to ask for? Because whenever I choose Kindred I end up thinking "why am I fighting tooth an nail for all these stacks, when I could just play Nasus and get them for free?"

cars3n1 votes

{quoted}

I understand your point about playing mind games, but that feels more like an effect than a cause if you know what I mean. To me, despite what you say, it still feels like this part of the passive is giving to much agency to the enemy team. It feels like its to much counter play. Think of it like this what if going invisible as Eve/Twitch/Rengar/Teemo marked your location on the mini-map for enemies to see? It would completely invalidate the use of that ability. That's what if feels like with Kindred passive, marking their location for enemies to yoink completely invalidates having a passive in the first place.

Side note, since you are probably a more experienced Kindred player than I (that's not sarcasm I swear), I wanted to ask you about the idea of having the first 3 or 4 marks spawning in ally-controlled jungle instead of just enemy jungle? Do you think that would be to much to ask for? Because whenever I choose Kindred I end up thinking "why am I fighting tooth an nail for all these stacks, when I could just play Nasus and get them for free?"

I think having the first few marks on your own camps would be a little too easy, but I think it'd be ok if scuttlecrab was more than just the first mark.

Lambtail3 votes

While I do agree that Kindred has room for improvement when it comes to QoL, I don't think this is the best way to go about it. One thing you're not considering is the consequences, and how it may look on the enemy team. For starters, as great as it sounds to have early marks in the ally jungle sounds, you have to keep in mind how much they give, and for how long. This means that the enemy jungler has to invade to put Kindred behind in the stacks department, which not every jungler can do. As for your Nasus analogy, imagine Nasus getting to farm freely for 10 minutes without anyone to poke him out, simply because they'd have to put on an aggressive and just as equally predictable strategy to put a stop to that. It's very similar to Devourer, and all the issues it had. You also have to always consider how you play, and the elo you're in, too. If you've learned that the enemy jungler likes to wait at your mark or to prioritize them, then take advantage by doing something else. I can assure you that pushing for tower plating or even a dragon, or even the enemy jungle camps as a punishment is absolutely worth just one mark, considering how little they give. Stacks no longer being visible on the enemy map, though, is a huge no-go. Picture the same Nasus analogy, but you don't know where he's going to be. And while you're clueless, they stack up. One sided information has little to no counterplay. As for Lamb's Respite, I quite like it the way it is. It's highly skill expressive in the means of knowing when it use it, and how to use it. It's obnoxious as is to be on the opposing end a lot of the time, though, so imagine if it's a 5-man Tryndamere Ultimate. Nasty stuff. Either way, Kindred is just fine where they are. I generally think there's not much need to change anything, considering even a slight tweak could end up putting Kindred in perma-banned territory again. Speaking of tweaks, I'm still salty that complaining was enough to justify a nerf to riot towards the already weak slow on Mounting Dread lol. But if they're gonna make any changes, I think they're better off doing something along the lines of either making marks disappear the moment they're killed for equal information, similar to how Skarner's spires work. Or, just an outright passive change again. I think everyone can agree that Kindred seriously needs more to do with their passive, since that's the whole thematic. I hate having to pass up marks because they're not worth the time in most cases. but it's a lot of effort and time to figure out a balanced solution for it. Not even reverting the passive to what it was initially would save it, even though I wish it would. Or maybe even make Champion marks unique, like Rengar. Stronger buffs for Champion marks only, but in turn can't mark who you've gotten a mark from already. Hell, even adding amplified damage to marked champions or boosted movement speed towards them would be a welcomed change. Though, of course, take these with a grain of salt. They're nothing more than food for thought.

zeskgames1 votes

As I didn't play League when Devourer was a thing I can't really speak on that regard (if you could enlighten me I'd greatly appreciate it). But I still don't see the issue with the first 3 or 4 marks spawning in Kindred's jungle. Getting those first 4 marks are essential to Kindred's play style, and quite frankly, it's bullshit that the enemy team has the ability to completely shut down Kindred from ever seeing those first 4 marks. This of the equivalent of playing Nasus, but the enemy laner has the ability to turn off his ability to stack at any time. If Kindred's marks were in their jungle, it would encourage aggressive junglers to go on the offensive and stop Kindred from getting those stacks without making Kindred totally unplayable.

Next, I have to disagree with you on Lamb's Respite, I think that entire ultimate needs to be changed, you say that "It's highly skill expressive" but the way I see it, it is a luck that completely relies on dumb luck or even worse, incompetent teammates, in order to be effective. I've always hated ultimates that benefit both teams equally, in another comment I gave the analogy that Kindred's ultimate is the equivalent of the US Air Force building fallout shelters for everyone Hiroshima before nuking it, it's just not an effective tool for winning. There are so many other issues with Kindred's ult, I'll list a few;

  • How come Kindred ult gives invincibility to both teams and Taric's doesn't, for all intensive purposes they're the same ult, so wouldn't it make sense for Taric to give both teams invincibility?
  • How come Kindred ult effects both teams and Soraka's only effects allies, if all ults were created equal then Soraka should heal all players currently alive, friend and foe, right?
  • If you think it about it, it does nothing, all it does is extend fights and give the opponent a better chance to kill you while your waltzing around in the circle.

Are their benefits to the ult? Probably but all of them are outweighed by the fact you are literally making your opponents invincible! I could go on but you get the point, I think the ult needs to be changes so that it only effects teammates, and if that means the ult is changed, that's fine I have a few suggestions. Maybe it could give all allies a buff in it's radius, or give all allies a big heal, or damage resistance, or anything other than giving.

Finally, you say this "You also have to always consider how you play, and the elo you're in, too." Now, I don't even know you, but I do know that argument is beneath you. All this is saying is "Shut up noob you'll never understand". It's a completely useless and unhelpful argument that does nothing but make you look like an elitist asshole (which I hope you aren't). It makes me think that you are trying to invalidate my argument just because I don't play ranked (because I find it stressful). Rant over.

spicymonki1 votes

I want to talk about what you just brought up because I found the way you think... interesting... to say the least. First off, I'm going to address the point you made about the passive stacks. I don't know how you managed to disregard the huge power spike that kindred receives when she reaches 4 stacks. It affects her dueling potential, her overall damage, and her usefulness in the early to mid game. In fact, a champion that has a similar passive is Bard, but as you seem to have a disdain for the champion, I won't bring him up again. Not only are her stacks able to be obtained from enemy jg monsters, but also from kills and assists on targeted champions. As _yifftail _said in the earlier post, part kindred's playstyle revolves around mind games. You can mark the enemy top, make him think that he's coming to you, have him tell the team that he thinks you're coming to gank top, and then instead gank bottom. However, as you don't play ranked, you may find what I said difficult to comprehend, given that you've probably never considered this.

For her ultimate, I have to disagree with you that there's no skill involved. I feel like good kindred players know that their ult is a double-edged sword, so only those who can properly assess the situation can effectively make the decision of when and where to use her ult. If you do it right, then you prevent your team from dying and prevent the enemy team from getting into your ult. There could also be a situation in which you were about to die hadn't you used your ult, then play mechanically skilled enough to out-duel someone in your ult. In fact, your ult doubly f**ks the champions that rely on burst in their kits. Also, if you ping your ult when you go into a team fight, your teammates can expect you to use your ult in the fight, giving your team time to make an outplay over the enemy team.

You also point out kindred's flaws in your bullet points by comparing her ult to similar ones in the game, so I'll try to make this easy for you to understand. Taric is a support. Soraka is a support. Kindred is a hard carry adc. Taric is designed for cc and plays fights in a way where he has his passive on an engaging ally champion and stun whoever that person engages. If he were to fight kindred, who would win? Kindred would win because she can Q dodge his stun. Most of Taric's kit is useless in a 1v1 if he doesn't have someone to back him up. Soraka wouldn't win in a 1v1 with kindred because all she has are heals and a slow, which are all skill shots that kindred can dodge. On top of that, her ult doesn't help with an immediate threat. Her ult is the same as preemptively putting a bandaid on an incoming gash wound, and using the movement speed to run away before they cc her. The only time when her ult is good is when it doesn't only benefit her.

You probably played with people who either objectively weren't good at the game, reading the situation, or they may have misclicked and used her ult at a bad time.

In all, kindred is a champ that teeters on a knife's edge. If you change even 1 part of her kit, she becomes almost entirely broken, or borderline unplayable. You say that kindred should have her passive changed, but then you would need to change her kit and her identity in the meta because then her ult wouldn't synergize with her E ability, which is hard enough to proc as it is, and change her passive, because like I said: broken or unplayable.

Forgive me for sounding like "an elitist asshole," but you state as much when you said that you aren't able to comprehend an argument in which the mechanics of the game and the probable thought process of enemy players, not champions, are taken into account. Rant over. [galio-happy]

Lambtail1 votes

For starters, I'm not gonna tell you that I'm the best Kindred player there ever once was, even regardless of the time I've spent on this champion. So, I can guarantee you that by regarding elo, it wasn't a jab to quiet you down. Elo judges how things happen, such as what you can get away with because the elo you're in consists of those who don't know how to punish you for it. Which brings me to the passive, again. Kindred's marks being in their own jungle has no counterplay, that's as simple as it gets. And, bud, forcing the enemy jungle to counterjungle to put a stop to that ezpz stackage just ain't fair. You have to consider lane priority as much as you do wards and teammates who listen to pings the instant they come out. As for the ultimate, my answer is heavily based on the comment by Tormentula, seeing as how they said it better than I ever could regarding your examples of Soraka and and Taric. Huge wind up, for Taric, Raka's kit being centered on one gimmick and all that jazz. If anything, I agree with you that Lamb's Respite is a little bullshit. I mean, I like it 'cause I'm biased and enjoy that it gives me breathing room along with a pleasant "I managed to pull that off because I did it right," kind of satisfaction. With that said, for the sake of letting this topic rest seeing as how arguing won't prove anything considering both parties are equally adamant about their claims, this will be the last that I'll contribute to this thread. Edit: Devourer was a farming jungle item enchantment. Forgot to mention. Once you've farmed enough jungle camps, Devourer would change, and essentially become a buffed version of what it was. Though, that's based on hazy memory, considering I saw the tailend of its lifetime.

Ahri Baka1 votes

Kindred is a jungler by the way.

zeskgames1 votes

Thanks for the info, I already knew that, but thanks anyway!

Gercmaster1 votes

I use kindred as my main but I don’t use her as a jungler more like a support on every lane I don’t fight monsters besides drake and baron and when I play draft I go support and tell them I’ll help them out equally

Mavëríck1 votes

You don't like people knowing where Kindred's hunts are? Yet nobody ever mentions how Rengar, the invisible hunter/stalker, alerts his prey whenever he's near... what kind of sense does that make?!

Tormentula1 votes

Kindred is fine rn.

The fact that the current meta consist of these;

JarvanIV Elise LeeSin Rammus Kayn RekSai Hecarim Nunu Evelynn

and a marksmen jungler somehow manages to have a balanced statistic with them in Korean Diamond according to lolalytics, being 51.42% WR, 7.98% pickrate, and averaging an 8% banrate over the past week... should speak for itself. Even IWD climbed to grandmaster playing kindred (not exclusively but he's a meta slave user typically)

  1. High elo kindreds actually abuse this too well, if you're inexperienced with kindred then it'll feel like shit considering efficiency of getting marks is part of their skill ceiling. Doesn't matter if everybody sees it on the map, what matters is if the kindred can predict where the next mark will be via the number of marks they currently have and what jungle camps are spawning in addition to having jungler tracking experience to track which camps come up first, something good kindreds can abuse. Kindred's terrain scaling and just being at that camp when it spawns is what nets them stacks. Of course inting for ones you obviously can't go for without priority isn't a viable option, but its way easier getting marks then you make it out to be. Of course enemies can also predict these marks, its this concept called counterplay. (and lets be real, unless you have the wiki open and are constantly clicking to check kindred's marks whenever they show in vision, its unlikely the enemy can predict these as easily for this to consistently be countered)

A. this solution makes things worse because it essentially invites the enemy into your jungle. If marks are in their jungle, there's only two locations they can be, making prediction easier (or play making, say they do go to your marked gromp on their side of the jungle, and you trade for rift herald or top. If they instead go in your jungle to invade that mark, you're cornered with fewer options as the goon squad goes into YOUR jungle instead of camping into THEIRS.)

B. This removes part of the counterplay. The thing is that mark gives information as to where potential pathing options maybe, if only kindred is given that information, that's a huge disadvantage to the opponent who has absolutely no interaction to be able to deny that mark. This is why skarner's changes were fine because neither team had more information, and you could still identify the spires by scrolling around looking at them, and tracking via taking them and knowing when they're been switched on or off. The only balanced options would be both teams or neither team could see the mark, and i think that would be even more frustrating for the player actually trying to find them (kindred).

  1. Let this sink in; a 6 item marksmen that can reach 600 or more range, with invincibility. Yea thats actually dumb, if anything that ult needs removed entirely if thats the design. Fucking hell you're basically giving kindred the entire gold funneling strat with taric+yi (ranged yi mind you, i fucking played against this 3 times TODAY and the mere thought of another one tilts me even more) in a single kit, even kayle doesn't auto during her invincibility considering she can just 1v9 if she did, fuck she does that currently. Old kayle perhaps, but her kit limited her to AP itemization so she wasn't actually stacking as much damage as a crit or on-hit marksmen, and she didnt benefit well from defensive items like QSS, maw, Phantom dancer, Death's Dance, etc.

It affects everybody because it doesn't auto win the game for kindred, and there are still scenarios where its actually beneficial to ult enemies (you can ult baron to deny them smiting it, in a tower dive you can save the enemy longer to juggle the aggro to somebody else before commiting to fully killing them, etc). Typically, if you have to ult, its when you're about to die so its a lose-lose either way, except it gives the chance to bring them low enough before you die either for a) your team or b) to kite them out of it and finish them with a properly timed E execute.

"If you think Kindred's ult being teammate only would be busted, then how come I don't see you complaining about Soraka ultimate not healing enemies?"

Because that wouldn't make sense??? lol?? Kindred is a hyper carry that needs counterplay so it doesn't 1v9 at the press of a button. Imagine ranged tryndamere with runaans, thats what you're asking for. Raka essentially gives up a teamslot just to heal allies, it doesn't need to heal opponents because her kit dedicated to doing basically one thing is already the drawback.

I wouldn't say kindred has too much counterplay. If anything I'd say there isn't enough lmfao. Even some pros wish kindred didn't have such bullshit terrain scaling and the ability to do whatever the fuck they want because high elo kindreds actually track junglers and position smart.

######also kindred isn't trundle atm.

zeskgames1 votes

its this concept called counterplay.

I'm not an eight-year-old, I know what counterplay is. And on that note I still think Kindred has way to much of it. Think of champions like Master Yi, if Master Yi got what I'm calling the "Kindred Counterplay Treatment" he would;

  1. Appear on the minimap whenever he used ult
  2. All enemies near Yi would get a visual indicator telling them that Yi just ulted.
  3. When Yi ults, all enemies would also get an attack and movement speed buff just like his Kindred is a testament to the fact that that not all champions are created with equally viable kits. Kindred has so much counter-play that a Jungler with half a brain can completely stop Kindred from ever getting stacks.

if only kindred is given that information, that's a huge disadvantage to the opponent who has absolutely no interaction to be able to deny that mark.

You say this, yet Veigar, Nasus, and Rengar all have the ability to stack, yet have no indicator of what stacks they are going after next. How come Kindred is the odd one out who shows enemies where stacks are?

Because that wouldn't make sense??? lol?? Kindred is a hyper carry that needs counterplay so it doesn't 1v9 at the press of a button. Imagine ranged tryndamere with runaans, thats what you're asking for. Raka essentially gives up a teamslot just to heal allies, it doesn't need to heal opponents because her kit dedicated to doing basically one thing is already the drawback.

Despite your loling, my point still stands, Kindred's ult at the end of the day is making your opponents invincible, there is no context in any situation, ever, where making your opponents invincible is a good thing. The fact that Kindred has an ultimate that is equally beneficial to both teams completely invalidates any usefulness it might have, it still stands that it is a total waste of an ability that does nothing but give your enemy multiple chances to kill you as soon as it's duration ends. It needs to be changed, if that means it's nerfed or gutted then fine. I would rather have an ultimate that benefits me and my team very little than one that give my opponents equal benefits.

Finally a quick question

the entire gold funneling strat with taric+yi (ranged yi mind you, i fucking played against this 3 times TODAY and the mere thought of another one tilts me even more)

When the fuck did they make Yi ranged? Either you or riot must be smoking that pack.

Tormentula2 votes

{quoted}

And on that note I still think Kindred has way to much of it.

Think of champions like Master Yi, if Master Yi got what I'm calling the "Kindred Counterplay Treatment" he would;

  1. Appear on the minimap whenever he used ult

y? lol. Yi's ult is not why he's broken. Kindred's passive and ult are why they are considered broken and that correlates to why those parts have counterplay.

  1. All enemies near Yi would get a visual indicator telling them that Yi just ulted.

Its kinda fucking obvious if you have eyes LOL

  1. When Yi ults, all enemies would also get an attack and movement speed buff just like his

tbh nobody would probably notice this change. Consider yi wins most duels anyway and that buff doesn't do shit for non-adcs/hyper carries. He'd still come on top due to red smite. Again the ult isn't the problem with yi so there's no reason for that to offer counterplay. The problem with yi would stem from either his E true damage, Q untargability, double auto passive, or damage reduction W, or even synergy with items for that matter (double procs of true damage+faster passive+faster CD Q with guinsoo's). If counterplay is needed, thats where to target. Kindred's itemization, W, and E, aren't problematic as the E can be dodged, the W can be kited out of or ignore because it does little anyway, but the mark system is what gives kindred the range, ability scalings, and the ult is what can turn winning scenarios into losing ones even if the kindred is 0/10 merely by ulting before dying and then bringing you low enough only to flash out and kite you out and suddenly come back into the game.

Kindred is a testament to the fact that that not all champions are created with equally viable kits.

What the fuck... lmfao That's a joke right?

No champ has an equally viable kit to the other.

If you played league competitively as long as anyone else, you'd know every champ has shown in the spotlight repeatedly and gone out as well. Kindred actually has a history of being picked A LOT, at release and in both 2018 and 2019 LCS.

In patch 9.8 alone, kindred has been picked 29 times in LCS. For comparisons:

LeeSin picked: 13 RekSai picked: 35 Elise picked: 7 JarvanIV picked: 36 Karthus picked: 9 Sejuani picked: 17 Gragas picked: 10 Hecarim picked: 26

PLUS

Kindred was banned 20 times,

https://lol.gamepedia.com/Kindred/Ban_History

please do research. You're right about one thing, not all kits are equal in viability, cause kindred is eons better then most of them lmfao.

Kindred has so much counter-play that a Jungler with half a brain can completely stop Kindred from ever getting stacks.

Clearly that's why they're so successful in Korean masters+

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389945345594884098/575522751767379969/unknown.png

You say this, yet Veigar, Nasus, and Rengar all have the ability to stack, yet have no indicator of what stacks they are going after next. How come Kindred is the odd one out who shows enemies where stacks are?

Because they're in a fucking lane where they get stacks for last hitting with abilities or hitting you. Even rengar you can check by clicking on him and hovering the ability icon, you don't play around these champs stacking you just play the game with the intention of ending before they stack too much, or in rengars case, just play to survive regardless of the stacking mechanic at all as it caps the moment he assist in at least a single teamfight anyway. Their counterplay is clear; fucking win, bully them early on, don't get hit by spells, stay out of range or buy QSS, group up so they don't single you out.

Kindred as a jungler is less clear because you can't necessarily stop them from doing their thing especially if they understand what lane priority, vision control/sweeping, objective trading, and they can hyper carry if they do get those stacks (nasus, rengar, and veigar can't really kite and rip teamfights apart as they are mainly single targeted burst, a kindred ahead with runaan's, mark range boost, and with peel will basically carry to the extent of a marksmen.)

Despite your loling, my point still stands, Kindred's ult at the end of the day is making your opponents invincible, there is no context in any situation, ever, where making your opponents invincible is a good thing. The fact that Kindred has an ultimate that is equally beneficial to both teams completely invalidates any usefulness it might have, it still stands that it is a total waste of an ability that does nothing but give your enemy multiple chances to kill you as soon as it's duration ends. It needs to be changed, if that means it's nerfed or gutted then fine. I would rather have an ultimate that benefits me and my team very little than one that give my opponents equal benefits.

You don't understand how to use it that's why lol.

I remember when bard had this same argument years ago, good times.

Finally a quick question

When the fuck did they make Yi ranged? Either you or riot must be smoking that pack.

Taric+yi gold funnel is broken because the invinicibility taric gives on yi is just too fucking good. You're trying to turn kindred into a self funneler that also has range advantage. I'm comparing kindred to this strategy because we do have a visual on what a jungle hyper carry with invincibility from a different source looks like, except what you're proposing is the ult is thrown on said hyper carry itself, and the hyper carry is ranged with a shit ton of terrain scaling and mobility.

Hard truth is this; You can't just play norms, go 0/5 on kindred, then rant about why kindred is bad when you haven't even gotten ranked experience on your account (and there is no excuse for that to be a smurf with those performance rates). Your points don't still stand because you don't even understand why the ability has to function that way for game health, and the way in which it does infact benefit the champ. I've already mentioned the scenarios about how it benefits and I'm not going to /r/kindredmains for you to get more or a kindred coach to have this discussion with. You need to focus on improving to gain a better understanding of the game and less on champ design for something you don't even have a long history of playing (you have 30,618 mastery on kindred, thats not a lot of experience, Thats about between 30 - 60 games depending on the win/loss ratio, in norms.). If you want to continue arguing instead of getting advice, God bless, but it ain't gunna be from me. I'm not trying to be toxic (but i know i suck at it), I just don't know how to convince you reality when you're adamant about not being convinced.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kindred/

spicymonki2 votes

Finally, a good fking comment from a competent league player. Cheers m8! [sg-miss-fortune]

LegacyDAP1 votes

Kindred is actually insane right now in high elo solo queue.

tunehunter1 votes

So I read some of the arguments in the lower posts and read the original post, but I think it would be NICE and would help low elo players that like Kindred if they added a visual tracking for their passives cool down on jungle camps. Those that play kindred a lot know that they remark a camp 45 seconds after another camp died so if there was a way for the kindred player to see that timer preemptive guessing where the mark will spawn would be much easier for the kindred player and could make playing them easier for low elo players without changing their effectiveness at high elo's. Just a thought. They currently have the cool down for marking champs available, but if they found a way to show this as well I honestly believe most of the complaints about low elo kindred being weak might disappear as people would now know when a mark was about to spawn and could thus learn how to predict WHERE that spawn was going to happen.

Wordson1x1 votes

Kindred is one of my mains and after reading most of this it would make the so Champion op. Kindred is a high skill jungle, that's why you see mostly pros play them. So in order to make them work you have to be very good with them. But if Riot was to make these changes in pro play they would be a prema ban. Mark 4 is a power spike so giving a Kindred their 4th mark in their own jungle would just be dumb. And the ult only working for 1 team wouldn't even be fair! It last for 4 sec and heals at the end. So whoever has the Kindred on their team would win most of the time.

zeskgames1 votes

Well since I have you here can I ask a question? I've been playing Kindred on and off and I can't seem to make things work I either get stomped on all game and lose or get ahead because of teammates spoon-feeding me kills or dumb luck. Also a general theme I've seen from other comments has been that I just need to get better at Kindred. With all that said, do you mind sharing some tips and tricks on how to do well as Kindred?

Shahamut1 votes

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