It is a bad system. One champion shouldn't be able to draintank to full health constantly, likewise grievous wound shouldn't be mandatory to stop that ridiculous draintanking. What other counterplay is there in close range.
Otherwise known as, why the hell didn't my Sion build thornmail.
Big Lincoln19 votesmake the healing counterplayable a la 
and nerf lifesteal ADCs
grievous wounds can now be removed
AirKingNeo2 votesYou can nerf ADC's lifestealing simply by reducing their damage too.
MysterQ4 votesI mean i have been draintanked 20to100 by Yasuo, Aatrox, Akali. It is just a terrible mechanism for both sides. If they dont get fed they cant do their thing but tbeir thing is terrible and shouldnt be a thing.
Catastrop8 votesIf they dont get fed they cant do their thing but tbeir thing is terrible and shouldnt be a thing.
Their thing wouldn't be a problem had Riot not gone on the crack pipe and made resourceless drain tanks. That's just awful design choice that basically causes the champion to handicap themselves. Since they can't be gated by a resource to have some drawback, they end up paying with power from their kit or having under tuned numbers that only work if ahead.
Over Innsmouth4 votesthey end up paying with power from their kit
Is...this a problem? I get healing as Vladimir, lots of healing, stupid amounts of healing, and damage. My tradeoff is garbage crowd control, low ranges for a mage, and I gotta hold off on scaling. Even my healing is tied to either my ultimate, or a really telegraphed bright yellow-red bar under my HP.
Is paying power out of your own kit a bad thing? You understand how power budgets work, right?
NineTailedMystic4 votes[deleted]
Over Innsmouth4 votesessentially ungated
Because needing gold for AP values and cooldowns suddenly don't exist?
Crimson Rush has a 5.5 sec CD at absolute minimum anyway, plenty of time to play around. If you can't, then you have bigger problems than what you're complaining about.
NineTailedMystic2 votes[deleted]
Over Innsmouth3 votesYes, that's how Vladimir works. His gameplay fantasy is being a health-stealing mage.
I mean, if your argument is that he could be healthier, yeah, I agree. If your argument is that he, as a health-stealing mage, shouldn't be allowed to health-steal to an effective degree, then I think you're wrong.
Are you asking for his Q to be unreliable or what?
NineTailedMystic1 votes[deleted]
Over Innsmouth2 votesWell, part of that is because having a heal with a health cost would just defeat the purpose, and the other half is because it's already gated by range and only every second or third Q (depending on how well you manage stacks) actually heals and damages for a notable amount.
there's no reason to not use it
Unless you're holding on to the 1/2 filled bar so that you can time a dive or an engage, or you're full health and using it would just waste the next time it comes up because it's too soon.
Pre-MYMU Vlad was kept intentionally shit as you described a few comments ago, because of the interaction-abuse of WotA and because his counterplay began and ended at "be outside of his ranges". Post-MYMU Vlad is actually allowed to be decent/strong because Q was given counterplay in that it's obscenely telegraphed, and E now has both strong telegraphing and can be body blocked by minions/your tank.
Coming into a thread about GW and Healing, and deciding to just have an argument about Vladimir that isnt really related to the discussion at all is just unproductive and petty. You havent even suggested how Q could be changed, or how Vladimir's kit could be changed to support a playstyle where there's more micro play (something that's unnecessary anyway) required, you've just come in and whined about "the healing champ's Q heals reliably and I don't like it".
NineTailedMystic1 votesWell, part of that is because having a heal with a health cost would just defeat the purpose, and the other half is because it's already gated by range and only every second or third Q (depending on how well you manage stacks) actually heals and damages for a notable amount.
I'm not saying throw an HP cost on it, because you're right. That'd be pointless. His W, E, and to a lesser extent his R, are all great. W costs a huge amount of HP and has a massive CD, on top of being his only real protection. His E has to be charged and positioning matters for himself and his enemies, while costing HP. His R can be whiffed or only hit one person on top of timing the heal from it. His Q is pretty much always "JUST DO IT", whether it be minion, monster, or champion that's in his range.
Pre-MYMU Vlad was kept intentionally shit as you described a few comments ago, because of the interaction-abuse of WotA and because his counterplay began and ended at "be outside of his ranges". Post-MYMU Vlad is actually allowed to be decent/strong because Q was given counterplay in that it's obscenely telegraphed, and E now has both strong telegraphing and can be body blocked by minions/your tank.
I misjudged his stats since I never really see him (nor would I want to, high on the dodge list). It looks like he's doing pretty okay right now in WR and PR, I just remember his plethora of nerfs following his update, along with some minor buffs, but he seemed to be a very delicate issue in regards to pro play (for his R) and solo Q (for his tankiness and damage), scraping the line between useless and outrageous. But like I said he seems pretty okay right now.
Coming into a thread about GW and Healing, and deciding to just have an argument about Vladimir that isnt really related to the discussion at all is just unproductive and petty.
I disagree. I think Vlad is a prime example of "essentially ungated healing that requires Grievous Wounds to be kept in check" that Catastrop brought up of
"Their thing wouldn't be a problem had Riot not gone on the crack pipe and made resourceless drain tanks. That's just awful design choice that basically causes the champion to handicap themselves. Since they can't be gated by a resource to have some drawback, they end up paying with power from their kit or having under tuned numbers that only work if ahead". You say that it's obscenely telegraphed, and while it's easy enough to play around it in laning phase, Vlad will almost always have a Champion to heal from in teamfights.
Without Grievous Wounds, his healing is unbearable. With it, he's at a fairly balanced healing level because he has to be balanced around Grievous Wounds.
You havent even suggested how Q could be changed, or how Vladimir's kit could be changed to support a playstyle where there's more micro play (something that's unnecessary anyway) required [...]
Because my ideas would be bad, and I should feel bad. I'd say something like "Change it to basically old spellvamp to heal based on damage dealt, lowering his reliable heals if he has to Q the Tank." or "Q only heals off of Champions and Epic monsters." or "Q's CD is increased if used on a non-Champion or non-Epic monster". I'm not a good theorycrafter, nor am I well versed in Vlad. For all I know, his current Q is the glue that holds his kit together.
you've just come in and whined about "the healing champ's Q heals reliably and I don't like it".
I don't think I really "whined".
Over Innsmouth1 votesHis Q is pretty much always "JUST DO IT", whether it be minion, monster, or champion that's in his range.
Well, yes, it's not the most intensive of skills in terms of decision-making requirements or micro, but considering that (you at least) admitted that WER are fair abilities that do require decision-making (although the damage amp on R has proved time and again to be an issue for balance and IMO needs to be removed at this point), that's 3/4 abilities that are fair. That's pretty good if you ask me.
I just remember his plethora of nerfs following his update, along with some minor buffs
Yeah, MYMU-patch Vlad had a passive that made full-tank builds ludicrous. I used to rush DMP and Spirit Visage and still output big damage. That was nerfed, then he had some more HP ratio and base damage nerfs, then got some AP buffs.
resourceless drain tanks
I figured that refers to costless, CDless ADCs with lifesteal, rather than Champions who are a) designed around sustain and b) still have to deal with cooldowns or melee-ness. That might be my interpretation being wrong, but Vladimir also has not-ignorable costs on the rest of his kit, as you yourself has pointed out.
Grievous Wounds itself is partially a problem for what it is at it's core, but the main issue is how it's applied. There are three itemization methods of GW, the most accessible of which simply adds it to your AAs, meaning there is fuck all you can do about it when the ADC starts rightclicking on you. If it was on a cooldown, or was an active like BotRK, it'd be much more reasonable to deal with as a healer, and then you could amp the value of the anti-healing so that in the sparse moments of when the GW is active, it's really worthwhile.
Because my ideas would be bad, and I should feel bad.
Well that's being unfair to yourself, and if you expect to have bad ideas you're more likely to have bad ideas. I'm sure in a discussion about Ahri or one of your other favourite Champions, your ideas would be better since you have better experience and insight.
...That being said, what you've suggested are straight nerfs, rather than the power-shift we need, and nerfs isnt what Vladimir's Q needs.
"Change it to basically old spellvamp to heal based on damage dealt, lowering his reliable heals if he has to Q the Tank."
That just makes life hard for the Vladimir player, since you shouldnt have to gauge how much health you're healing for per target.
Q only heals off of Champions and Epic monsters." or "Q's CD is increased if used on a non-Champion or non-Epic monster"
Basically just remove Vladimir from the game. That's like if you doubled mana costs for all skillshots if they miss Champions.
Something I might suggest, but am hesitant to do so because Transfusion needs to be reliable, is that they "Veigar" his Q. Remember when they changed Veigar's Q from point-click to a skillshot, but the tradeoff is that it now has higher range and can hit two units?
Of course, because of the way Transfusion works it'd have to be backwards, starting at a cast-point and moving towards Vlad.
But that's the only thing I can think of and be confident with, and even then it's iffy.
PrinceOfStorms2 votesYeah, and Vlad needs that because his E costs 10% of his max health, and his W costs 20%.
PrinceOfStorms3 votesVlad doesn't actually do that much healing with his non-empowered Q (relative to his health pool), which is his primary source of healing (along with his ult).
R is on a relatively long CD, and Vlad's empowered Q is one of the most telegraphed abilities in the game.
NineTailedMystic1 votes[deleted]
PrinceOfStorms3 votesnon empowered heal is 20/25/30/35/40 + 35% AP. It's actually garbage. The empowered heal is 35% effective against minions and is Vlad's primary source of sustain.
Vlad needs nearly 200 AP to heal for 100 HP without the empowered heal, and needs about 460 AP to heal for 200 HP.
His Crimson Rush heal with 460 AP would heal him for 20+10*level + an additional 22.5% missing HP when used against anything that's not a minion.
NineTailedMystic1 votes[deleted]
Over Innsmouth2 votesExcept you're comparing a Champion who isnt identified by her healing and just has it tacked on to her kit for fun, to a Champion who's entire gameplay thematic is about healing.
In comparison to other Champion's who actually are designed to heal themselves, or even just comparing it to the rest of Vladimir's kit, yeah, 20-40 + 35% AP is garbage, especially early game when you have no AP to scale the ability with, and since there's a penalty against minions for the Rush part.
You can also proc Ahri's heal against the entire minion wave, meaning the value written in the tooltip really should be multiplied by 3-6.
NineTailedMystic1 votesHer passive isn't "tacked on for fun".
idk man, 30.5 HP (with 30 AP) per 9 seconds at level 1 is way better than any champion other than Fiddlesticks could hope for.
Anyways, I apologize for mentioning Ahri as it's a habit I'm trying to break, and I apologize for trying to say Vlad's healing is better than you say it is and a prime reason why he's usually pretty undertuned.
Over Innsmouth1 votesI think Riot's in a pretty happy place with Vladimir right now, they'll only buff/nerf him if his winrate and pickrate are out of whack.
Apology accepted, there's nothing wrong with being passionate about your main, it's just about time and place. Vlad heals a lot, that's for sure, but if he was an actual problem, there would be more fanfare about it.
PrinceOfStorms1 votesBut the issue is that Vlad has HP costs on his W and E, and needs to have that healing built into his kit- and the non-empowered heal will never be enough to compensate for a single use of E, whose HP cost is 10% max, never mind a use of W, whose cost is 20% current (unless you're really low when using W)
Catastrop2 votes[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iKM4fleI,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-13T19:05:17.700+0000)
Is paying power out of your own kit a bad thing? You understand how power budgets work, right?
It doesn't have to, but there's a point where the champion ends up paying way too much for very little benefit.
AirKingNeo2 votesYasuo builds ADC items.
Aatrox sucks right now and if you refuse to play around his obvious counterplay then I don't know what to tell you.
Akali is really broken.
Pierce The Veal1 votesI mean i have been draintanked 20to100 by Yasuo, Aatrox, Akali. It is just a terrible mechanism for both sides. If they dont get fed they cant do their thing but tbeir thing is terrible and shouldnt be a thing.
"How dare any champion have something different from a generic champion."
Teridax683 votesI agree fully with this. Grievous Wounds are a mechanic designed to prevent poorly-gated healing from getting too far out of control, but it would have no reason to exist if sustain were given proper gates in every instance in the first place. I feel it's a pretty large contributor to the excessive amount of sustain in the current environment, because it's pretty much guaranteed to appear in organized games (and its application is pretty easy now through fairly cheap items), and so healing is balanced around being cut in half and still working properly.
At this point, I think the only real troublemaker champions when it comes to sustain are Mundo and Swain, both of which are slated for eventual VGUs, whereas the rest generally have at least passable gates to the healing in their kits. Marksmen as a class do pose a problem with the huge amounts of resourceless self-healing they can get through life steal, and I think the stat needs to be at least toned down, if not phased out eventually. Ultimately, self-sustain should likely only be given to champions who are expected to be durable in prolonged fights, but even now most self-heals are adequately designed, even if some of them are too strong when uncountered.
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesDont forget kayne
Krinu4 votesAs a Soraka main, I would love for GW to be removed and healing to be balanced around its removal.
Having my favorite champion be overpowered without it and underpowered with it really sucks to play.
It Hertz When IP3 votesNature of the setup. IMO the Grevious Wounds effect should be removed or HEAVILY nerfed, and healing/self-healing effects nerfed accordingly to bring them back in line.
Over Innsmouth2 votesHealing on a cooldown (basically everything that isnt an ADC) is something you can play around, since cooldowns have downtime.
Healing on AAs, which don't have cooldowns, is something you can't play around since they're nice, constant, right-clicks that you can't do shit about beyond perma-CCing the enemy.
So yeah, fix Lifesteal and remove GW, that's the solution.
PrinceOfStorms2 votesGW needs to exist because of Soraka.
We need to delete lifesteal and leave GW in the game, but not have it affect self heals.
Over Innsmouth1 votesGood point, I forgot about Soraka!
Kloqdq1 votesShe can be balanced out around the removal of GW.
TimX24968B2 voteswhy not get rid of all forms self healing in that regards, if thats what you want? there's nothing wrong with something being binary, unless it only allows for minimal counterplay. Things can be binary by design.
MysterQ1 votesThe problem is it is completely binary right now. They either heal so much you cannot kill a good player. Or you buy Grievous Wounds and they are gimped hard enough they feel bad.
FantasySniper2 votesIt's because GW is a slap-on, one-point-wonder hard-counter. Unlike resistances or penetration that are generally inefficient without other synergistic stats, you can buy it once (and for relatively cheap) and completely forget about healing.
If they were to implement 10 or even 20% reduced healing on various items, you would actually have spend more than one über-efficient slot to properly counter it.
Dengeden2 votesIf only League was a 1v1 game, then this might be slightly relevant.
Escheton1 votesWhat did your Sion build? Because my Sion games tend to have me grab bramble soon as I finish 1 or 2 items.
MysterQ1 votesI was first time ADC, so I wasn't really paying attention. ... but when Fi 1v5 us.... and someone said her lifesteal. I changed my buildpath and bought Mortal Executioner, but it was too late after a 1v5 that late. After making this topic, I went back. He had like rush Sunfire. Then somewhere went Spirit Visage and ... ZZ Rot.
Sion, what are you doing man. WE might have been able to win. (I Tripled) and it was FI vs 5... but we stood no chance. This is after an earlier 4 man teamfight, that she solo'd us. This time she actually ran and the team chased her like bad plays. Her lifesteal wasn't as ridiculous, but she was taking no damage with parry and everything so I said stop chasing.
I mean my team is talking about getting countered. But if you can't even do so much as buy the first part of Thornmail, then you deserved to lose... which meant I deservd to lose :( After making this topic. I also want to follow tutorial and build Thornmail on Ashe. Might have helped me.
Escheton2 votesI was first time ADC, so I wasn't really paying attention. ... but when Fi 1v5 us.... and someone said her lifesteal. I changed my buildpath and bought Mortal Executioner, but it was too late after a 1v5 that late. After making this topic, I went back. He had like rush Sunfire. Then somewhere went Spirit Visage and ... ZZ Rot.
Sion, what are you doing man. WE might have been able to win. (I Tripled) and it was FI vs 5... but we stood no chance. This is after an earlier 4 man teamfight, that she solo'd us. This time she actually ran and the team chased her like bad plays. Her lifesteal wasn't as ridiculous, but she was taking no damage with parry and everything so I said stop chasing.
I mean my team is talking about getting countered. But if you can't even do so much as buy the first part of Thornmail, then you deserved to lose... which meant I deservd to lose :( After making this topic. I also want to follow tutorial and build Thornmail on Ashe. Might have helped me.
Given Sion can waveclear with a Q-W combo, that Sunfire was redundant. Looks like you were dealing with a novice Sion. Pity,
MysterQ1 votesI mean i feel even real tanks dont want Sunfire anymore, but i wasnt upset that game or sad he rushed it. But postgame i was def sad to see no grievous wounds besides morello that never triggered.
Gentleman Jey1 votesRemove all self healing, buff Pots. Balance champions that heal other champions around the new rules.
Kloqdq1 votesThis is an interesting case of, do we really think we should have an unbalanced stat that hasn't aged well or do we just remove it and balance out the game with it's removal. Personally, I think GW has gotten far to powerful and some heals, Maokai, Swain, Mundo, etc. are all too strong when you don't have GW but are too weak when you do. There can't be a happy medium because both ends of the exchange are kind of busted. Either you stack or gate it better, like what Tides of Blood suggested down below;
If it was on a cooldown, or was an active like BotRK, it'd be much more reasonable to deal with as a healer, and then you could amp the value of the anti-healing so that in the sparse moments of when the GW is active, it's really worthwhile.
I like that idea if we had to keep GWs. Otherwise, I would rather it be removed simply because it feels awful to play as one of these champions and just be gimped because you or the people around you got auto'd. That is the main issue with this.
Buckeye20021 votesMaybe Riot should come out with champions that don't have healing in their kits. Playing Vlad, it's annoying that my signature thing...healing....is made into every champ nowadays........
Joseraph1 votesSssh, keep my 
freelo alive
Noblewind1 votesReworking GW and how forms of healing work doesn't necessarily make the game less binary. In a sense you're just asking to simplify how damage vs tankiness operates, i.e. all damage vs our HP bars are more straightforward. Honestly sounds like a ton of work to redesign a lot for an end goal that's not really going to be that different, gameplay wise. Like you aren't going to play the game that differently as a champ that this relates to if you changed how these work IMO.
Rinkle Dinkle1 votesTBH drain tank champions at the moment are designed around healing directly through the grievous wounds lol
Elkington VI1 votesWho even heals from 25% to full hp reliably besides late game ADCs? It certainly isn't a melee, because every burst mage buys 
.
Most sustain-reliant champions never actually get to live their fantasy since grievous wounds is so prevalent, even more so with the new thornmail.
DragonShea1 votesLife Drain and Grevious Wounds are too strong. both of them are overturned and nerfing and capping LS and GW should make the game feel less like LS is OP. Its one reason why New Thornmail is now being used by so many champs that would look like a joke if they got the old thornmail. I don't mind the cap for LS was 40% or something like that or 46%(Not 52% that would be OP) with Spirit visage.
So yeah life steal needs to have some kind of cap to stop drain tanks from being OP.