is there a way for me to explain that max hp doesnt work on soraka or is this actually a good build?
the build i was trying to recommend was this
or
(but we were playing ascension so you cant buy wards)
Guyy Fieri3 votesExplain to them how you heals cost %hp, meaning you still run out health faster while they also scale off AP, meaning you heal your team for less. Now the spirit visage/warmogs combo is why people go for it as they will be constantly regenning health. Basically just tell them that playing that way you don't get nearly what Soraka should really be doing (giving low health allies half their health bar with her ulti in the middle of a team fight).
Edit - if you want a heavy AP item, I would just go deathcap, not Ludens. The straight AP really improves Sorakas heals by a ton. And the little bit of burst Soraka has isn't impacted all that much by Ludens Echo.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesi normally do but i got a lot of flack the last time i mentioned deathcap on soraka so i was trying to avoid it this time
Guyy Fieri1 votesWell I don't really suggest deathcap anyway I'm just saying it'd be better than Echo.
I feel like Talismen, Ruby Sightstone, Boots, Ardent Censer, Locket or Banner of Command and then something like Zeke's Harbinger would be optimal. Between the Ardent Censer buffs and Zeke's buff you would be able to massively buff up your ADC come late game.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesi dont feel like soraka can make good use of zeke unless she's zipping around a low hp marksman on bottom lane. it wouldnt scale very well into late game i wouldnt think. it takes quite a bit of stacking to get that buff and if whoever youve bound it to dies you lose a lot of its utility and power. i like banner. not a huge fan of hp builds so i dont care much for locket. i build that on my support tanks. i havent done a lot of experimenting with ruby sightstone yet. i usually build the sightstone income item. however im starting to work towards putting ruby into my builds and just getting the increased buff version of the income item. ive been looking for a build with actives that matter and passives that dont stack. possibly some like the following
to go with
's passive
Guyy Fieri1 votesZeke's can be underrated. Think like an ADC. You really want 100% crit. But you also want some more AD and some safety stats. Take Sivir for example. One two items of Essence Reaver and Phantom Dancer you're at like 60% crit I believe. Now it's really nice to go straight into I Edge and keep bulking up your damage. But say they have a LeBlanc or Fizz or even Viktor, basically and burst heavy Mage. Sivirs going to need Hexdrinker to just survive to deal damage. Thus, you have to give up some damage for the mid game in order to not get instagibbed. Having Zeke's would help the damage output while still granting Sivir the safety.
Ok so what if that person dies or isn't with the team?? Just remind with someone. It gives AP too you know right? So say you ADC gets popped and no one else is really great for using it. Bind with your mid laner.
I will agree that Zeke's isn't the best late game (at it requires a lot of set up to get the optimal DPS with it). But if your talking Soraka and taking her from a simple heal bot and finding ways to enhance her builds, having Zeke's active with the buff from Ardent for healing allies can actually greatly buff up your ADC and you almost start playing more like a Janna or Lulu and just enabling your ADC to deal more damage.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesI'll give it a shot from time to time. Sorry I didn't reply sooner. The diamond's pushy attitude over warmogs kind of rubbed me the wrong way. At least silvers (you) know how to explain their theory as well as listen to others instead of "always do it this way never ask why because it doesn't matter - shut up just do it you can't back it up numbers mean nothing I don't have to prove you wrong I'm diamond " which is literally all I got out of talking to him.
soh1gh21 voteswarmogs out of combat regen op
CFGnoah1 votesActually it depends on alot of different situations. for example you can build tank items on soraka with HP to help with bursty / all in comps. Personally when I play soraka I build Talisman ruby sightstone merc/ninja/lucid boots locket frozen heart or spirit visage depending on comp i'm facing and mikael/ardent.
L Psy Kongroo1 votesWarmogs is just too good on Raka, so she needs at least 3K HP to proc its passive. RoA gives her everything she needs, and Rylais helps you land the second part of your E. The first build is perfectly fine IMO; a bit too much MR for my taste, but depending on the enemy team comp, it can work. Other AP items are just luxury items for her tbh, to be bought only after she's reached Warmogs threshold.
Orinne1 votesHealth on Soraka isn't necessarily a bad thing, between and Q keeping your health up through obscene amounts of regen.
If anything your build doesn't really make sense to me, at least in terms of Summoner's Rift. isn't too great on Soraka as she doesn't do enough damage to really take advantage of the heal passive and doesn't really enable her abilities in any way like how makes landing the 2nd half of her E easier or how refunds some of the health she's using to spam heals.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesto be honest i forgot about the eternity passive on rod of ages.
i disagree about your statement regarding unholy grail
the purpose of ludens echo is to increase her movement speed while granting her more AP. at 10% movement speed plus the 55 movement from swiftness boots you should be able to outrun most champs that arent exclusively buying movement speed or already at 355. soraka starts at 325 which is really really slow. even with her passive you're not getting anywhere anytime soon without movement speed. the passive also improves your damage output on your Q helping to stack charges with grail if you hit multiple champions that werent inside of the aoe's
i dislike the idea of building warmogs for a few reasons - it requires you to buy hp which limits your healing potential that has already been reduced to essentially flat healing based on skill points invested. her W costs 10% of her max hp per cast. warmogs only grants 15%/5 seconds after 8 seconds of being out of combat. that's 3% per second if you build it versus the 10% you're spending which varies by cooldown reduction. resulting in an overall net loss until out of combat for 10-30 seconds. buying those 4 items grants soraka 200 ap. 60% of 200 is 120+200 = 320 healing. at 320 healing for 3k hp you're spending 300 health to heal your allies - not including the additional health past the 3k hp. at that point your opponents could just let you kill yourself while they focus whoever you're healing.
Orinne1 votesIt's fine if you disagree, but virtually every statistic site shows that pretty much no one picks up Athene's on Soraka, but Warmogs makes its way on several popular/successful builds.
What's MS going to give Soraka that makes so necessary? You're not exactly weaving in and out of fights, given that your heal forces you to be really close to your allies and your only other tool is a long cooldown AoE silence that you're generally not spamming. What exactly do you need movement speed for, when you're literally doing nothing but spamming heals and hopefully landing Qs?
Health on Soraka makes it less health-efficient for her, yes, but aside from making her heals just a little bit stronger, Soraka gets very little benefit from actually stacking AP, and in return, she becomes a lot riskier to play, because she's more prone to dying quickly. Sure, losing 300 health when you're 3k health sucks, but losing 180 health when you're at 1.8k isn't that much better, and ultimately, say if you end up using 3 heals in a fight, a 2100/3000 health Soraka is more likely to survive a fight than a 1260/1800 health Soraka, of which you got 360 more heals to do so, half of which probably got lost because of 
.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesmy build - 40% cdr, 95 mr, 200 ap, 125% mana regen, 100% hp regen, 55+10% ms, 300 hp
passives
15% heals and shields power, 8% movement speed, 15% attack speed and 30 magic damage on hit for allies healed/shielded
20% conversion of flat damage into charges 100-250 max based on level, healing or shielding heals for up to the charges amount, mana and health regen 100% faster in relation to one another
a spell shield after not taking damage for 40 seconds
echo deals 100+ 10% of ap as magic damage to up to 4 additional targets on hit
25% slow resist
hp build - 2500hp, 200 ap, 125mr, 400 mana, 500%hp regen, 20% cdr, 30 armor
passives
- eternity heals for up to 25 hp per spell cast based on mana spent. refunds mana for 15% of damage taken
- warmogs heart at 3k hp heals 15% of max hp every 5 seconds after 8 seconds of not being in combat
- spell shield after not taking damage for 40 seconds
- blocks 12% of basic attack damage
- 25% increased healing received
- 40% movement speed reduction for 1 second on abilities.
in other words you have two builds completely opposite in their opinion of how soraka should be used.
1 treats her as the first-responder medic she was intended to be and the other 1 treats soraka as a worthless heal aura totem that cant do anything for herself.
Orinne1 votesOkay, so you can list what each build does, and that's apparently enough evidence to show that one build is "how she's intended to be played" and the other is "worthless".
Quite honestly though, I don't get the point of this discussion, when one build is too expensive for Soraka to reasonably complete in a game and the other is filled with items that Soraka can't utilize well.
The most standard build is 
, which more or less, combines the best of both worlds (40% CDR, 450% health regen, gives her just barely enough health to get Warmog's passive at lvl 18, etc.) while sticking to a support budget and giving her items she can actually use, not just "let's give her Luden's because MS I don't really need and +120 damage once every teamfight".
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesi like that build actually. and you may be diamond, but youre an ass. i hope you never make it to challenger. sticks tongue out nyeh
Orinne1 votesSorry for trying to have a semi-reasonable discussion and expecting arguments with well-backed up statements, I guess?
I didn't bring up you being Bronze 5, and I'm not really that bent on hitting challenger, so I'm not sure what you're getting out of bring up my rank. If you really want to go that route though, then given your rank, I'm not terribly surprised that you can't articulate why Luden's/Athenes is the end-all build for Soraka.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesI backed up my statements.
I gave you a mathematical model as to why warmogs is bad. You also gave more credit to my model by saying anything over 3k is a waste. And the example as to why warmogs is a good buy on her you need to account for the fact that she will likely not draw the attention of the enemy because of her high hp bar which lowers her peel potential nor would she be able to due to her slow movement - in other words if her team doesn't win the team fight she's a sitting duck.
I showed you that without the income item in the build (save the 10% cdr because both items provide that) the stats were balanced out providing a little bit of everything vs the tank build which focuses all stats into regen and defense. Which does very little to supplement her abilities for her team.
I explained the purpose of the builds with their mind set - first responder vs heal shrine.
you commented on how much more expensive rylais and roa were so I don't even need to bring that up. The only item in my entire build that's remotely expensive is ludens. Even my boots are cheaper.
my build emphasis is in the wind speakers blessing keystone. Nothing listed up top in the hp build even comes remotely close to providing stats for the cunning tree line. It seems to be more of a resolve line. Which completely defeats the purpose of bringing a healer. The cunning tree line allows for greater movement speed for squishy champs as well as more regen for the champs that need it. It's literally a combination of a utility/assassin tree and when you don't provide stats to supplement that through your runes and items you're wasting potential.
a support that can't kill the other support is a wasted team slot. You might as well be playing lulu and buying nothing but armor and magic resist and going "oh but I am helping out see my little butterfly? It will keep you safe while I do no damage get singled out and die as I waste my ultimate shield etc running away"
because of sorakas low ap% scaling on her Q and E you can't force 2v2's. No amount of hp is going to prevent her from dying once her ally is dead. That's why you need movement speed. That's why you need some damage. That's why hp stacking on soraka is a bad idea.
Orinne1 votes[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iE9aYJHl,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-02T12:02:14.098+0000)
I backed up my statements.
I gave you a mathematical model as to why warmogs is bad. You also gave more credit to my model by saying anything over 3k is a waste. And the example as to why warmogs is a good buy on her you need to account for the fact that she will likely not draw the attention of the enemy because of her high hp bar which lowers her peel potential nor would she be able to due to her slow movement - in other words if her team doesn't win the team fight she's a sitting duck.
'Warmogs is bad because out-of-combat health regen is disabled in combat and you're using more health to heal for less' is barely a mathematical model. You're just assuming that because out-of-health regen is unusuable in combat that the item is now a liability. Warmogs is already quite efficient without its passive, but it becomes several more times efficient when you have the health to activate its passive.
Strawmanning my argument isn't going to help you here. I offered you a build in which you'll get just enough health to activate Warmog's passive, but even without that passive, as I said, it's very gold efficient, and Soraka can still make great use of 10% CDR and 200% health regen, even in combat. Your belief is that Soraka shouldn't be building a max health build, which is all fine and good, but it's also the minority of Soraka players.
As Soraka, you probably don't want to draw enemy attention to yourself, as you do want to heal as much as possible. How exactly is ~35 less movement speed affecting her ability to peel? I've had no issues moving around with just Ionian's boots and ardent censer if I get there.
I showed you that without the income item in the build (save the 10% cdr because both items provide that) the stats were balanced out providing a little bit of everything vs the tank build which focuses all stats into regen and defense. Which does very little to supplement her abilities for her team.
You still haven't answered how Soraka is getting anything out of Athene's or Luden's, aside from reiterating what their effects do, so as far as I'm concerned, you still have a build with 5000 gold wasted on other items you could make better use of.
I explained the purpose of the builds with their mind set - first responder vs heal shrine.
You dismissed one build because you think it's not how Soraka should be played, by stating what each item does in each of the builds. That's not an explanation, that's just lazy reiteration of common information.
you commented on how much more expensive rylais and roa were so I don't even need to bring that up. The only item in my entire build that's remotely expensive is ludens. Even my boots are cheaper.
The tank build is more expensive. It's also got more synergy with Soraka.
my build emphasis is in the wind speakers blessing keystone. Nothing listed up top in the hp build even comes remotely close to providing stats for the cunning tree line. It seems to be more of a resolve line. Which completely defeats the purpose of bringing a healer. The cunning tree line allows for greater movement speed for squishy champs as well as more regen for the champs that need it. It's literally a combination of a utility/assassin tree and when you don't provide stats to supplement that through your runes and items you're wasting potential.
So we're assuming that one build goes down one tree, and the other goes down another tree? Pretty sure 0/18/12 is the way to go on virtually every Soraka build, so again, you're bringing in a strawman argument.
a support that can't kill the other support is a wasted team slot. You might as well be playing lulu and buying nothing but armor and magic resist and going "oh but I am helping out see my little butterfly? It will keep you safe while I do no damage get singled out and die as I waste my ultimate shield etc running away"
A 200 AP Soraka isn't going to kill anything any better than a 0 AP Soraka. You've also just kind of proved that you know nothing about the support role, since you think that a support needs AP to function. They don't.
At least in higher level play, a support build generally consists of 
and their income item. Yes, even on Soraka.
Supports function based on the utility their skills provided, not off the big numbers they may potentially put out if they had 200 AP.
because of sorakas low ap% scaling on her Q and E you can't force 2v2's. No amount of hp is going to prevent her from dying once her ally is dead. That's why you need movement speed. That's why you need some damage. That's why hp stacking on soraka is a bad idea.
Extra movement speed isn't going to matter if you were forced into a 2v2. By the time you get 200 AP, you're probably in a 5v5 40 minutes into the game, so I'm not sure why you're bringing up a 2v2. I thought you were arguing that Soraka's supposed to be a healer, but now she needs damage? HP stacking isn't the best way to play Soraka, but it stands a better chance than your random collection of items.
Duke Anax1 votesHP builds are not bad on Soraka, as long as you take HP items that have AP as well. it's a defensive early game that pays off lategame.
Once you have Warmogs and enough AP to get some effect, you can make your team immortal.
That said I only ever use it in top lane, it's somewhat expensive for a support.