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Do you remember this, Mr. Ghosctrawler?

Love Anastasia·Jul 9, 2018·130 votes·20,609 views

"Burst is a “bad thing” when it removes counterplay for the other side. When the only realistic answer to “How should I have prevented dying to that assassin?” is “You should have been somewhere else,” then that is a really frustrating situation to be in, the kind of frustration that makes players want to quit your game and play something else.

There are, hopefully, answers for when a mage bursts someone down because a lot of their abilities are skill shots, so the answer to the above question can be “Dodge the shot, or get behind minions” or something similar.

When a tank bursts you down and the answer is “You have to kite that dude. You can’t just stand toe to toe with him,” then that’s acceptable from our point of view. If the answer is “There is nothing you could have done except be somewhere else,” then it’s the same situation as with assassins, and if we have tanks like that in the game, then we need to fix them."

https://askghostcrawler.tumblr.com/post/155359682718/why-is-burst-such-a-bad-thing-on-assassins-why

Tell me how the enemy ADC can counter my wukong appearing from no-where, using E+Q+R and deleting him in 0,1 sec while I knock up everyone and get out of the TF with the movement speed buff of NImbus cloak to repeat the same.

Note: Say "Dont picking adc" is NOT an acceptable answer [slayer-jinx-unamused]

157 Comments

saltranJul 9, 201831 votes

Tell me how the enemy ADC can counter my wukong appearing from no-where, using E+Q+R and deleting him in 0,1 sec while I knock up everyone and get out of the TF with the movement speed buff of NImbus cloak to repeat the same.

Why would an ADC counter a diver/assasin? I thought that it had to be the opposite.

(And I say this as a main MF, an immobile adc)

Love AnastasiaJul 9, 201816 votes

{quoted}

Why would an ADC counter a diver/assasin? I thought that it had to be the opposite.

(And I say this as a main MF, an immobile adc)

Because, as Ghostcrawler said in the text, Burst is a bad thing when it removes the counterplay for the other side. So how do you counter someone that goes invissible from out of the screen (Movement speed boots + Youmu) and 100-0 you in 0,1 sec?

Wicked FlamezZJul 9, 20185 votes

Well ADC is not a good role to use for that burst rule because your supposed to be with support so the question is, how did you AND your support fail to kite a wukong 2v1? If your running around alone as an ADC an assassin SHOULD be able to global you, that's their job.

Love AnastasiaJul 9, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wicked FlamezZ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iAQve4JF,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-07-09T16:44:33.535+0000)

Well ADC is not a good role to use for that burst rule because your supposed to be with support so the question is, how did you AND your support fail to kite a wukong 2v1? If your running around alone as an ADC an assassin SHOULD be able to global you, that's their job.

I will tell you what i do, i build Youmu + mobility boots, and go from outside the screen to instakill the adc. Doesnt matter if he has a support with him because i destroy him before they can do anything (And, of course, i knock up them with my R)

Wicked FlamezZJul 9, 20181 votes

That's probably due to supports not taking exhaust more than anything. Even in low elo people can exhaust champs like wukong mid leap and they just fall over and die. Assassins become alot harder to stop their damage when every support takes ignite.

Love AnastasiaJul 9, 201813 votes

Good luck exhausting someone in the 0,1 sec time gap between I become invissible and I one shot the adc

And i'm talking about Diamond 4-3, which isnt close to be low elo

saltranJul 9, 20184 votes

Because if you have ignite and the enemy supp has exaust is really easy to kill in the 2vs2, that's why Ignite is the most used summoner spell for supps on all elos.

And I highly doubt that a bronze supp can land an exaust before the monkey that comes from stealth jumps btw.

Wicked FlamezZJul 9, 20181 votes

idk about bronze but it happens in low silver and gold so I expect better from plat+.

Love AnastasiaJul 11, 20182 votes

Even when i doubt that people in silver/gold does it, you miss an important point. A diamond wukong is not gonna do the same than a Silver wukong.

GigglesOJul 9, 201812 votes

Supports can't stop them from being burst after that last set of changes either...

Anu3isIIJul 9, 201834 votes

I think he meant outplay, which in this case would mean surviving an all-in.

If I remember it right, Riot specified that in order to get a kill, an assassin should either land all their skills or position perfectly. I guess it is pretty annoying when an assassin doesn't need to land skillshots in order to get kills.

saltranJul 9, 20187 votes

I honestly think that what you are talking is more a Wukong problem with his kit being too outdated.

GigglesOJul 9, 201820 votes

Back in earlier seasons adc's built Randuins, Warmogs and Banshess veil. (sometimes 2 of 3) It was just enough to stop getting 100-0'd. It was declared as OP, and Unfun for assassins. Then it was unfun that tanks could cc assassins out of a kill, (they were nerfed). Then it was declaired that it was unfun that supports could protect the adc, They were just recently nerfed.

Now we are where we are... Where I don't even bother building tank items on anyone, because they don't do anything.

GelsominoKillerJul 10, 20181 votes

Supports have invalidated assassin's from the end of the lethality meta since now.

I think that now they deserve a bit of agency.

GigglesOJul 10, 20184 votes

It’s supports job to invalidate assassins. I’ll give you a hint that’s why it’s called support.

GelsominoKillerJul 10, 20181 votes

No offense, but it's incredibly evident that the same exact argument can be applied to the class of assassins whose job is to kill the carries.

And in their case the name "assassin" is much more explicit than the word "support" which implies nowhere that their reason to exist is to "invalidate assassins".

Hong Kong AnnieJul 10, 20183 votes

See this is part of the problem. An assassins job used to be to clean up fights and kill isolated targets that are out of position. Being able to dive in and guarantee a kill is a flaud design even if it was a 1 for 1 trade.

GigglesOJul 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wayward Son,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iAQve4JF,comment-id=00020002000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-10T21:18:18.710+0000)

Being able to dive in and guarantee a kill is a flaud design even if it was a 1 for 1 trade.

Just like a tank being 100% unkillable is a flawed design.

That’s why we need to work in the middle.

Hong Kong AnnieJul 11, 20182 votes

Right now that's not a problem tanks die almost as fast as carries. That said an unkillable tank is a better design than the instant kill assassin.

Red WreckageJul 10, 20185 votes

item 3147 item 3095 is busted as fk on any AD assassin. throw in dark harvest and its pure toxin.

JarvanIV Rengar Khazix MasterYi . just get in melee range to land 1 AA. carry is dead unless item 3157 item 2419

Darkone7001Jul 9, 20185 votes

And if you play zed you don't even need to position correctly.

FoxstepJul 9, 20183 votes

The moment zed finds you (a squishy) alone he outplayed you already. He had better vision controll and therefore wiped you out. If you died it’s absolutely your fault

HayaishiJul 10, 201817 votes

{quoted}

The moment zed finds you (a squishy) alone he outplayed you already. He had better vision controll and therefore wiped you out. If you died it’s absolutely your fault

Yeah my bad for leaving base.

Ulquiorra0123Jul 10, 20184 votes

Lol thank you

BALDG1VEN BOOMERJul 9, 201822 votes

Remember when Mr Scrawler also said they go back on champions after dumpstering them.

Pepper ridge farm remembers.

SaiannaJul 9, 201811 votes

Remember those 3 seasons when ADC were dealing sustained burst damage? Often 1-2shotting anyone that wasn't a tank or bruiser?

Oh wait, ADCs were nerfed a bit and everyone going nuts on "how unbalanced everything else than ADC is", or "how poor ADCs are getting their asses smashed".

It surely sucks to be on the other end of the stick at least once a decade, right?

What i learned while playing LOL is lower DPS ADC/Mage is better than dead ADC/Mage. Build defenses if you get sacked every 2 minutes. Even if that means getting 2, if not even 3 defensive items. Don't blame everyone because "mah glass cannon dies so fast Q_Q".

Also if you see Wukong rushing ADC, don't just stop him. Bait him. You know what and how will he do it. Don't wait for him to kill your ADC.

Other than that, silly itemization (the current main issue) is/was always a thing. Just recipients changed. Adapt.

Love AnastasiaJul 9, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Remember those 3 seasons when ADC were dealing sustained burst damage? Often 1-2shotting anyone that wasn't a tank or bruiser?

Oh wait, ADCs were nerfed a bit and everyone going nuts on "how unbalanced everything else than ADC is", or "how poor ADCs are getting their asses smashed".

It surely sucks to be on the other end of the stick at least once a decade, right?

What i learned while playing LOL is lower DPS ADC/Mage is better than dead ADC/Mage. Build defenses if you get sacked every 2 minutes. Even if that means getting 2, if not even 3 defensive items. Don't blame everyone because "mah glass cannon dies so fast Q_Q".

Also if you see Wukong rushing ADC, don't just stop him. Bait him. You know what and how will he do it. Don't wait for him to kill your ADC.

Other than that, silly itemization (the current main issue) is/was always a thing. Just recipients changed. Adapt.

You talk like if i were main adc, when in fact im the wukong in this story lol, do you find strange someone complaining about how trash is a role that isnt his?

The problem is the next: At this current meta, where everybody has stupid damages, build 1 defensive item as adc wont save you, only will keep you totally behind

Seems like people acutally dont know how to "bait him" or know how and WHEN he will do his job, since i've had 70% winrate as him in middle diamond solo Q in 70-80 games (A winrate that only decayed when ppl stopped play adcs). I remember you that Wukong is invissible, and with youmu + mobility boots he can go to your adc from outisde the screen. Good luck having it warded with wards that dont show wukong, or keeping a red trinket everytime and giving up all ur vision (Because you cant buy wards) only to delay the Wukong one shot to your adc until he has flash

saltranJul 9, 20184 votes

The problem is the next: At this current meta, where everybody has stupid damages, build 1 defensive item as adc wont save you, only will keep you totally behind

Agree with you there, is worthless to buy 1 item since it wont protect you and you are delaying your core build.

Exin0Jul 9, 20182 votes

Yop one item dont save you, damage is too high but dont forget another aspect absurd AS and LS which promote building as many damage as possible a pray to deal enough burst through LS to just make a dent...

saltranJul 9, 20183 votes

3 seaons also count when you had to play Ashe/Varus/Jhin to be an ult bot and give your team utility because the rest of adcs were worthless or you talk about the last 3 years like if it was a homogeneous meta?

But well, you don't even paly the game so...

Acheron16Jul 9, 201812 votes

Wukong player stating how retarded champs like wukong are, giving specific example of how works versus mages

Random dude on boards comes in and starts ADC hate circlejerk

You guys are fucking amazing

DracocrashJul 9, 201810 votes

If an adc gets cought out alone 1v1 vs an assasin, is the ADC expected to live?

Not arguing about wukong being broken or not, he definitely is.

But if an assasin catches out an adc alone without his support, without his team split pushing he should be able to kill them 1 vs 1 reliably, and then be useless untill his cooldowns come up. This is acceptable to me.

Hexs FortuneJul 9, 201810 votes

{quoted}

If an adc gets cought out alone 1v1 vs an assasin, is the ADC expected to live?

Not arguing about wukong being broken or not, he definitely is.

But if an assasin catches out an adc alone without his support, without his team split pushing he should be able to kill them 1 vs 1 reliably, and then be useless untill his cooldowns come up. This is acceptable to me.

How would you define "catching out" ?

Farming alone under tower = catching out?

AkumuJul 9, 201810 votes

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/217783255720656896/458471052981305346/ddr.png

Notice how i have item 3191

Fair.

Galaxy DestoryerJul 10, 20184 votes

When a Zoe player complains about wukong yikes city

Galaxy DestoryerJul 10, 20188 votes

Plz don’t say atleast I have to land skills shot u can go blind fold and still one shot people with ur q

Madsin25Jul 9, 20187 votes

The thing is ADCs used to be unstoppable. If you failed to 100-0 them as say wukong you would be punished with death(this happened with every assassin).

Now adcs can't exactly turn on you and 100-0 you with endless shields and heals, and your insane damage to counter their damage has since been left unchecked.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20188 votes

lie, adcs PLUS jannas used to be unstoppable. Turns out, not everybody had a premade janna to play with during ardent cencer

Madsin25Jul 9, 201810 votes

Ignite was weaker heal was stronger. Are we just gonna forget the period of time where ADCs were taking barrier and supports took heal?

Infinity edge 2nd item power spike was basically an RNG burst clown fiesta that could instantly slaughter assassins.

Love AnastasiaJul 9, 20187 votes

{quoted}

lie, adcs PLUS jannas used to be unstoppable. Turns out, not everybody had a premade janna to play with during ardent cencer

Agree. The best part, after Janna having >56 % winrate and being at the same time the first pickrate champ for 1 year or so, they nerf her (And the other shield supports).... Just 1 patch after nerf adcs

Like, they could have nerf Janna BEFORE and test how adc work then, they could have nerf adcs and let Janna as she was. But do both things in 2 weeks? Seems legit and a great idea

Love AnastasiaJul 9, 20184 votes

{quoted}

The thing is ADCs used to be unstoppable. If you failed to 100-0 them as say wukong you would be punished with death(this happened with every assassin).

Now adcs can't exactly turn on you and 100-0 you with endless shields and heals, and your insane damage to counter their damage has since been left unchecked.

How can you fail in 100-0 the adc as wukong? Only if they're ezreal AND have a Rakan/Janna/Soraka with them

ßluęJul 9, 20186 votes

You have an adc?[sg-janna]

Blue Moon WolfJul 10, 20185 votes

You want to know the real problem with Wukong? his kit is outdated as hell and Riot hasn't done anything about it. Look at any other champ that's been updated or are in need of an update. Taric and Sion had ranged point and click stuns. Pantheon STILL has a point and click stun and a passive that literally lets him ignore an instance of damage after every few attacks. Galio had giant AOE taunt that did damage based on how much damage he took and Amumu has a giant AOE stun and was #1 in win rates for most of last season.

The fact is that its not surprising a change like a new item that synergizes with a champ like MonkeyKing broke him, it was inevitable. The updates happen FOR A REASON. They happen because old champs don't have the conterplay and player interaction that champs today have. The fact it happened shouldn't be a shock, the shock should be it took THIS long for something to go wrong. If you REALLY want something done about Wukong, tell Riot he needs an update instead of that champ that's been updated several times but still needs work done.

CasterGilgameshJul 10, 20183 votes

well your not wrong but try telling that to his mains or the mains of any champion since every body likes to complain about reworks and im not talking about genuinely bad reworks like Mordekaiser and IMO monstrosities like Karma rework

Galaxy DestoryerJul 10, 20184 votes

If Assassins are this op why aren’t the pros playing them instead they are playing bruisers hmmmmm sound more like aa player problem

No counter play to assassin if that was true I’m pretty sure in pro play the bot lane would be mage only right now but nope still adc/mage/support

AhpeJul 10, 20184 votes

Mages are taken over assassins because they can practically do the same job but with distance and also scale way better. A pro team will do a much better job at keeping their carries alive than 5 people put together where 2-3 of them are probably already arguing within the first 10 minutes.

There IS counterplay to assassins, but that counterplay is like using a scooter to run away from a cheetah.

The EcdysiastJul 10, 20185 votes

Let's look a few months back, shall we? And I'll ask you:

If Ryze is so overpowered in pro's (60-65% winrate) how come he's balanced for everyone else?

Likewise, jumping back up to all patches since his nerfs, if Ryze is balanced in professional play how come his winrate at all ranks bronze through diamond is around 42%?

The answer is glaringly obvious: The coordination of a 5-man team drilled in playing this game day in and day out with explicit knowledge of their allies AND enemies drastically changes the effectiveness of certain types of champions.

CasterGilgameshJul 10, 20182 votes

so like 1% of the player base has no problems with Assassins so that means there is no problems with the assassins at all....Hmmmmmmmmm

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CraftyInfiniteBluejay-max-1mb.gif

Ulquiorra0123Jul 10, 20183 votes

Pro play is completely different than solo queue, this statement is just under a naive view that they are the same game, they are not.

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