Ivern has a 32% winrate

Cabruh·Oct 12, 2016·1 votes·850 views

"Ivern-ed this."

"I am treely sorry for you."

11 Comments

Big LincolnOct 12, 20162 votes

people are trying to play him like a mage and not a support

RalanrOct 12, 20161 votes

I'll be honest, I rarely see the difference.

Desolas ArteriusOct 12, 20162 votes

He's more of a tank support from what I gather.

People are probably trying to build him pure AP, and are getting upset when they can't do anything.

Similar to how Bard was when he first came out. People were trying to play him as an AP Damage support (think Lux) instead of a utility/disruption support like he was supposed to be. After a few months Bard's winrate started to rise once people figured out how to play him. Even seen some pro play because his utility is pretty damn good.

Ivern just needs a month or two of people figuring him out. Obviously number tweaks are needed, but yeah :P

RalanrOct 12, 20161 votes

I meant between a mage and a mage support. I really don't see the difference in terms of what items to build.

Desolas ArteriusOct 12, 20162 votes

Mage supports still build items like item 3174 item 3222 item 3060 item 3504
Whereas mages would avoid those items all together.

If we're talking "Mage supports" like Brand, then obviously there is little difference outside of item 2049 item 3092 , but those are special cases since Brand wasn't intended to be a support, but works pretty well as one. He still has to prioritze damage items obviously, but those come after his two core items.

Also playstyle affects the difference. A mage is just there to get kills, objectives, and carry the team, whereas a mage support is there to support the team/adc and assist in kills. Whether that be locking down enemies, chunking health, or disrupting them, they focus on assisting the team and complimenting their abilities, rather than focusing on themselves and killing the enemies. They also have to worry about warding and clearing wards more than the other roles.

I hope that makes sense :) Mages and Mage supports are still very different. It just gets hard to tell when you have mages become supports that originally weren't (Morgana, Brand, etc) and vice versa.

And with Ivern's case, there has never been a true "Support Jungle". So a lot of people are probably having to learn how to be more of a jungler who supports the team, rather than a jungler who carries/controls objectives/whatever else junglers do haha.

NavaruneOct 12, 20161 votes

I think the mage tag on him is misleading, and maybe inaccurate. In terms of other mage supports, there is some difference in what can be effectively built (though in some cases there is even less), but Ivern doesn't do well with AP builds.

NavaruneOct 12, 20161 votes

You don't see the difference in playing support vs. playing a mage? If that's the case, here's a (very) brief explanation.

Mage Role: Do damage while occasionally inserting follow up CC. Generally mages have very bursty, frontloaded damage (with a few exceptions) with good AOE. Some can be good initiators, like Kennen, while others are better at cleaning up fights--Viktor for example. Mages tend to focus on building damage items and usually stay in the backline during teamfights. You often find mages in solo lanes because they scale well with both the solo experience gains and gold flow, and they tend to be squishier than many junglers so they don't clear camps as well.

Support Role: Support is a much broader role, but when thinking of this as a role within a team comp, it is very important to note that support has 3 major responsibilities: 1) Initiation, counter initiation (peel), enhancement, and/or sustain/shielding; 2) Vision control; and 3) Poke. The mission of a support is to empower your allies in their respective roles and enable them to do what they need in order to win the game.

How does this apply to the conversation around Ivern? Well, people are expecting him to be able to bring damage from the jungle like a Fiddlesticks or Yi. Or if not that, they are expecting him to bring tons of lockdown CC, like a Nautilus. The thing is, he is something altogether different. He's a bit like what I would expect an effective Lulu jungle to look like.

CorghanOct 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

He's a bit like what I would expect an effective Lulu jungle to look like.

I'm glad you said it this way. I've been trying to play him support and I think of his kit a lot like Lulu support. Mainly shield the ADC and poking with passive range, use brush to help the ADC disengage. The Q is closer to a Morgana Q, which is also nice to have in the bot lane.

EarthenDragonOct 12, 20161 votes

My personal win rate for him in ranked is bad but in normals I've only lost like 2 games.

Desolas ArteriusOct 12, 20161 votes

Just give him a month or two. People haven't figured out how to build or play him yet since the majority isn't used to playing Support junglers.

He'll even out once everyone figures him out ;) He's still only a week old so no one has really mastered him yet fully.

Just look at Bard in the past :P Same thing though he was 36% I think. Still low until people figured out he isn't an AP damage support, he's a utility support haha.

I do like your tree puns though :3 boo-tiful~