X Champ is Broken: A Rant

SecretAgentHulk··17 votes·1,297 views

Dear Summoners,

Until you have worked on balance for a game with millions of players, in which you have to balance gameplay for over a hundred champions and world-class to world's-worst skill levels, you are unqualified to give Riot crap about their balance updates. Are they perfect? No. Is there room for disagreement? Yes. Is there more than one valid way to do things? Of course.

However, just because you see the world one way does not mean that's how the world is. The Gameplay and Balance team gets paid to look at all roles across all ELOs. You do not, and probably cannot because a) you don't have access to all the data they do, and b) you're most likely stuck in your own personal bubble (e.g. I'm a bronze supp/top bruiser. Also this is not to say that Reds don't have their own personal bubbles, but they are better equipped to see past them).

There's room for disagreement. Disagree! I personally can't play Sona anymore because her new range is too small for me and I find the auras a little too weak. But don't be mean. Riot generally knows more and sees more than you do. Keep it respectful.

<3 u all. Hulk out.

ETA (repost from below): I welcome "X is OP" threads, and I love reading them even when I disagree. (A lot of times it gives me insight into play and counterplay.) This was more ranting against the idea that Riot doesn't know what they're doing, and level 22 RandoSummner could fix the whole game if Riot would just listen to him. It was trying to be a plea for politeness and understanding. I would never want to shut anyone up, but I find "X is OP Rito sux", without explaining why or while espousing The One True Solution, extremely annoying.

28 Comments

Quantum Weeb10 votes

I disagree with most "X is op" threads too, but saying that people shouldn't voice their opinions because they don't have a game design degree is simply wrong. Most of time, Riot is right, but there are some times where they weren't, and they admit to that. The fact is, people who complained that the Lucian nerfs were buffs were actually right, and Riot was definitely in the wrong.

I GONNA FK ON U6 votes

Riot rarely ever admits to their mistakes. They'll more often than not just ignore all threads regarding it and address the problem a year later.

Hero of skyloft4 votes

If they address the problem later, that doesn't mean they ignored the threads.

That is just a test of patience.

Remlap12231 votes

It means they're trying to sweep it under the rug, and they'll finally do something about it after the whines from the player base get too annoying for them. Unless of course, you're Lee Sin. Then you'll get hyperbuffed because favoritism.

SecretAgentHulk7 votes

I could have maybe been clearer, I think. I welcome "X is OP" threads, and I love reading them even when I disagree. (A lot of times it gives me insight into play and counterplay.) This was more ranting against the idea that Riot doesn't know what they're doing, and level 22 RandoSummner could fix the whole game if Riot would just listen to him. It was trying to be a plea for politeness and understanding. I would never want to shut anyone up, but I find "X champ is OP Rito sux" without explaining why so annoying.

I GONNA FK ON U3 votes

Olaf.

SecretAgentHulk3 votes

Is he still broken? I don't see him much. (Not sarcasm, honest question.) If so, how?

I GONNA FK ON U3 votes

He was competitively viable in S2, then Riot made him trash based off of some play Voyboy made.

SecretAgentHulk3 votes

That happened a year ago. Is he still trash?

Dryditch3 votes

He takes a fuckton more skill to play well, and often ends up getting completely rekt by any competent team.

Remlap12233 votes

The player base has every right to voice their concerns over champions. And Riot has made more than a few "oopsies" because if they haven't, I'd be seeing more than 20% of the champions picked 80% of the time.

Here's the oopsies in terms of Olafing just recently:

Braum Cassiopeia Gragas KhazixKogMaw Maokai Nami Skarner Soraka Yasuo Ziggs

And now on the flipside, the new term for overbuffing champions, something I'd like to call "Tristying"

Lucian Tristana (Maokai, and Nidalee were formerly on this list, followed by a good Olafing afterwards, and have gone the way of other Olafees.)

Long story short, Riot has proven that they can't balance their game. I'm sorry, but even a Bronzie like me can see that pile of shit that is Riot's balance choices. I play Smite as well as LoL, and Smite has NONE of the balance issues League does. Mobility creep? Hardly. Every god in the game either has a leap or a crapton of utility to back up their lack of mobility. Incredibly OP champions? There's a couple of gods that leave a bad taste in my mouth every time I play against them (Freya, Poseidon, and Zhong Kui for the most part for me) but that list is minuscule to the champions that I fine absolutely toxic in this game (Amumu Blitzcrank DrMundo Fizz Garen Irelia Jax Kassadin Kayle Leblanc LeeSin Leona Poppy Renekton Rengar Shaco Singed Teemo Tristana Tryndamere Urgot Veigar Vladimir Volibear XinZhao Yorick Zed Zilean).

Riot sure talks a big game, but they have nothing to back it up. It's time to face the music that Riot's gotten too big for its own good. Gone are the days of the good ol' underdogs that listen to the player base and make real interactions with the community (the Cassiopeia rework and lore retcon are glaring examples of this) and it instead has been replaced by Blizzard Entertainment. Hell, the way that the lore setup is hypothesized to work in the future is already looking like WoW anyways, so it be fitting.

"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Xenohaz2 votes

"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

I love that. Did you come up with it?

Remlap12232 votes

Not sure if sarcastic or trolling...

Ryvaku2 votes

Not sure if sarcastic or trolling...

Trolling because it's hilarious.

SecretAgentHulk1 votes

This was more ranting against the idea that Riot doesn't know what they're doing, and level 22 Bronze RandoSummner could fix the whole game if Riot would just listen to him.

That there are more summoners and skill levels than you, and that someone's job—not hobby—is to balance them for all of them, is what I'm asking you to see. If you honestly think that Riot can't balance the game properly, I would hesitatingly posit that you have no clue how game design works. (Also if you think all those champs are unbalanced, just wow.)

Remlap12232 votes

It'd probably help if you actually read my comment. Toxic =/= unbalanced. Toxic = unfun. They may not be dominating World's anytime soon, but that doesn't mean that they are healthy to the game. The only exceptions I think I listed up there that are viable competitively due to being OP are Fizz, Lee Sin, Leona, Rengar, Tristana, and that's it. Everyone else everyone says are in "bad spots" mostly due to the fact that they provide so much toxicity for the game. I'm pretty sure Riot flat out said that part of the reason they're not nerfing Lee Sin into the ground (besides obvious favoratism) is that they're worried that Shaco or Allistar would make a comeback. While I can see why they'd be worried about it (Allistar was the most toxic Jungler in the game, Shaco is tied for second with Lee Sin) the fact that they think that a champion who had the monster damage gut out of his passive, and a jungler that still does not properly convey jungle buffs on his clones for possible juking potential is a testament to why they don't know how to balance their game.

I don't even need to bring up those points. The last patch is a testament that they don't know how to balance their game. Remember Garen? The first time in, IDK forever, they touched Garen, and instead of doing what they needed to do which was get that ultimate off its ridiculous cooldown, they instead turned Garen into Dr. Mundo 2.0, hyperbuffed his passive, and just turned him into a late game annoyance (the same reason why Dr. Mundo is toxic, you just can't kill him.) And unlike Mundo, Garen has full all-in potential, so your squishies are going to feel the pain of the Destruction Man diving under your towers all the time. Again, Garen is in a better spot than he was, but it was the wrong spots to the wrong places. Tristana and Lucian's "nerfs" are another testament to that. I mean, increasing the attack speed scaling on her Q for a lesser attack speed per level? It already costs 0 mana! The only thing you're doing is giving her a Kayle style E where that's what she uses when she goes ham and bursts you down quicker than you can get away from her E and W. And Lucian? After his mini-rework turned him from nasty OP poke marksman to nasty OP lane bully marksman with unrivaled burst potential and still carries the game hard late, they nerfed the mana cost on his E, which is a moot point since once he builds triforce his mana problems disappear. Again, only superficial nerfs, doesn't gut what's really causing him to be a problem (early bullying during laning phase better than MissFortune, yet carries harder than everyone besides Vayne and Tristana.)

So yeah, you can give me all the shit in the world for being Bronze. I'll be going on to my second year playing this game, and for being a first-year in ranked almost out of Bronze I when lots of people sit in Elo hell for years is a testament that I'm not just another scrub who thinks every champ is OP. You see, I'm a gamer. I don't need to have a degree in game design to tell you what is a piss way to balance your game. Any fucking critic does that. Saying that Riot is immune to criticism because the community doesn't have degrees in game designs is a piss-weak and bullshit argument. Anyone has the right to criticize anyone, and it's the FACTS that determine who is right. And before you start going on about the stats of the champions that I listed as toxic to disprove my argument, my ideas of toxic are SUBJECTIVE. I made a thread many moons back about what champions "grind your gears" and got answers all across the board. My ideas on who is OP Fizz LeeSin Leona Lucian Ryze Tristana are OBJECTIVE. There's a clear stats overload, utility overload, or unequal early game safety/late game power trade-offs that cause the champions to be picked over counterparts (Ryze instead of Cassiopeia, Lucian instead of MissFortune, etc. etc.) Your argument is a false dichotomy, and therefore bad.

SecretAgentHulk1 votes

First, way to write a word wall on the one comment that didn't have anything to do with the main thrust of my argument. (Criticize respectfully.) Second, if you think there is objectivity in something like this, I would pay money to watch a reality show where you work on the Balance and Gameplay team for six months. Third, I'm entering my second year of play, and am Bronze I. Same boat as you. Fourth, I've already said this isn't about stifling criticism. It's about criticizing respectfully. There's a difference, which it seems you are don't quite understand. Fourth, there is not One True Way to achieve balance. If you think there is, you are not being objective. Fifth, your previous comment used the champions you find subjectively toxic as evidence that Riot can't balance; I responded accordingly. Sixth, you maybe haven't seen Riot try to somewhat nerf the OP champs (Fizz not OP btw), although they couldn't do so much in the past couple months because of the leadup to worlds.

If you really think that Riot is incompetent, and if their balance issues grind your gears so much, go play something else made by a competent developer. Have fun with Smite. Try HotS or Dota 2. Be happy. Be free.

If you love the game, then play and critique like you love it. Respect the fact that Riot loves it too, and that it may be your friend, but it's their baby.

Remlap12234 votes

I do love the game. What I don't love is Riot taking a massive dump on something that they actually did right (Cassiopeia Skarner). And no, your argument does stifle criticism. You flat out said in your original post that you can't give Riot shit about balancing the game until you join the balance team at Riot.

Until you have worked on balance for a game with millions of players, in which you have to balance gameplay for over a hundred champions and world-class to world's-worst skill levels, you are unqualified to give Riot crap about their balance updates.

Cassiopeia players have every right to give Riot shit about them gutting their champion. Skarner players have every right to say "why the fuck did you fix Skarner, then Olaf him the instant he saw competative play and a playrate above 1%?" Olaf players have every right to ask why Olaf has gotten gutted so much he's become a trope and buzzword for overnerfing champions, yet Lee Sin is untouched despite being the reigning jungle god forever? It's their baby yes, but they're neglecting it for eSports. It's a little disheartening because Riot has shown that they can actually balance their game. I think the Nid Rework patch was the best patch they ever released (that I have been around for). The only thing that bit them in the ass that patch was the Tristy mistake, and at that time Tristana was in a very poor spot, so I can't give them too much shit for that because even I didn't forsee them creating such a monster. Everything else was QOL changes that made skarner go from a 0.94% playrate to a 5% playrate (if I'm not mistaken, I think that's Rammus' playrate right now, so there you go.) Nidalee went from being toxic Q to QQ, to a very fun and balanced champion. This was before they Tristana'd her and made her the top lane AD terror.

This is why I'm frustrated. It means either Riot made a big fluke and I'm caught up on it since, or they're just not interested in making real changes because they're too busy focusing on eSports. For a company that's supposedly priding itself on being community focused, it sure turns its back on 99.98% of the community for the 0.02% that are professional gamers 9 months out of the year.

I shouldn't have to turn my back on a game I love so much due to lack of care or effort by the developers now that they're big enough to run on eSports alone. Maybe one day Riot will cross your line, and you'll start to see things my way. Then you'll realize how heartbreaking it is to see the game that you hold so dear just abused and neglected, and fallen from grace so much.

SecretAgentHulk1 votes

OK, I think maybe our disagreement stems from the part of about giving Riot crap? (BTW really really sorry if I was inflammatory earlier, as I probably was.) I think there's a difference between disagreeing and giving them shit, and that didn't come through so clear in OP. Disagreement is fun. Different people have different ideas and Riot's definitely not perfect. I just hate when people dump on them because they're not perfect (which again, is different from simply disagreeing). There's a difference between saying "Cass rework sux here's why" and "Riot balance sux they don't know how to do their job".

You also have some valid criticisms. I haven't seen Olaf enough to know what he's like (although anecdotally, I've been rekt with new Cass and my buddy loves current Skarner) but I know and agree with Lee Sin needing a bit of a nerf. I think the example of Nid shows that they really do listen and evaluate and then try to make the best choices, but again, I don't want to be the person to say nobody can disagree.

They've also crossed my line a few times already, and I know how that feels (again, sorry for my lack of empathy for you in a post asking people to empathize with Riot). Sona was the first champ I ever mained, and I can't play her after the rework. I started playing Teemo top after the Jax nerfs (which tbf he needed).

I disagree that Riot abandons low ranks to focus on esports, but surely we can disagree on that :)

Remlap12232 votes

I'll forgive you since you actually seem to be a reasonable person on the internet (probably won't be using those words in the same sentence for a while...), but I understand where you're coming from too. Far too many threads I see are "Akali needs to be deleted from the game, discuss." I know how you feel, it makes the people with actual valid criticisms have to deal with the mains and bandwagoners attacking them because they lump them together with the morons that just say "HURR DURR DELETE JAX", when in reality they have actual real valid criticisms. When one of your own champions comes under flak, you'll get defensive as well (after the Nid rework patch I hit some of this, because I REALLY liked what they did to Skarner, and the nerf was completely unjustified and quite frankly unfair).

If I have some advice for you, just keep doing what you're doing, but watch how you word yourself. Misunderstandings can come from how you word things, and people can interpret an honest criticism into a direct attack. Hell, the fact that you're taking time out of your day to post on the forums about making the game better is commendable. We're the 1%! Out of all the people in League, we're the ones the actual devs interact with the most! With great power comes great resposiblity (I promise, no more superhero movie quotes), and if you use it responsibly enough, you can actually get the devs to listen and possibly apply your criticisms.

Case and point, the Karma and Heimerdinger changes. Karma and Heimerdinger are allowed to cast their ults while silenced because some random guy or girl on the forums was like "hey rito, we should be able to at least cast our ults on donger and karma when silenced because every second counts." I was on that thread, and while I didn't really see the big deal in that (mostly because Karma and Heimer both have a huge window of time when they can cast their next ability after using their ults to upgrade that) a red agreed, and the changes went live. Now that is Gangplank buff rare, when a Red will go with a specific balance change brought by some random joe-shmo on the forums, but skins they'll usually bite on.

I think I may have somewhat disproved my own argument, but for the most part I still think it's valid. I think the best way I can describe Riot at this point is "bi-polar" Volibear.

Raptamei1 votes

"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

You just complained that Leblanc (44% winrate), Zed, Volibear and Garen are OP.

Stop QQ, Dota has snowballers and invulnerability and invis and kits consisting entirely of point and click spells, and the game is FINE. You've been babied to the point where you cry about anything and everything that kills you.

NoMonku2 votes

Your heart is in the right place Hulk, but sadly, your plea will be forgotten as soon as it goes off the main page :P. Players who come here to cry in an angry way are kind of funny because trying to get actual feedback and answers from them proves a lot of the time that they have no idea what to do or what their counterplay options are. Also sometimes they are playing something that is countered hard by said "OP" champion, like TF into Fizz. Fizz will DUMP on TF, so barring some REAL outplays and/or mistakes on fizz's part, TF should always lose, at least in the 1v1 matchup.

The other type of "X is OP" are the people who try to use numbers and "facts" to try and sway people. Some of these people just seem angry and will disagree with you if you don't agree with them, but some of them are just misinformed and end up learning from the experience, so it is potentially better that they do it, as I feel remaining ignorant is a sin. It isn't your fault if you're ignorant about something, but if you can actually do something to enlighten yourself but turn AWAY from it, thats a different thing.

DarthSpectrum2 votes

Pretty much this.

That is not to say though that Riot always make the best decisions. It is even worse when they won't admit that they are wrong. It is mostly the latter part that attributes to the majority of imbalances in the game.

I understand that it is impossible to balance every champion and satisfied everyone, although Riot is doing a fairly decent job at it. The problem is that when they do screw up, it is as if the concept of balance went out the window. ie. Kassadin.

Players should still voice their opinions regardless, even if they are non-conformist, their feedback is still part of the data Riot uses to balance the roster. The moment people stop complaining, is the moment that the X champion will end us all.

SecretAgentHulk1 votes

Agreed.

Biggg O2 votes

Akali

Drunk Rummate2 votes

skimming through i think i agree with your message, but i just want to make sure it's clear that there's nothing wrong with arguing about champions and mechanics and which we think are overtuned or need to be looked at and improved.

yes, riot probably has better insight than random posters here in general, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't take our suggestions and use them. that's what these forums are for, after all. it's not just riot's game, it's our game, and that's why it's a popular game - because riot continues to make this our game.

SecretAgentHulk1 votes

yep

Pandemic Punch1 votes

Xerath is so OP that he can crash the game with his Q.

More from Gameplay

More by SecretAgentHulk