Currently Yasuo is balanced (I think) but trades nothing for his mobility really

Arakadia·Jun 21, 2016·99 votes·7,561 views

I mean sure he is kinda squishy but many bruiser/assassins are. He has poke and he has no mana. He has utility and good anti-poke. He has CC too. He trades nothing for his mobility. So I suggest either he has energy, a charge system, or something for windows of opportunity where he cannot dash and enemies can react accordingly.

Don't downvote me into oblivion, I'm not saying Yasuo is broken at all. I am merely saying he trades nothing for his mobility. If you can provide a good argument on what he does trade, then sure I'll change my mind.

255 Comments

Over InnsmouthJun 21, 201645 votes

The tradeoff for his mobility is that it's situational, it's dependent on minions and that it fails in extended fights due to the on-target cooldown. Whether that's fair or not is up for debate in my book, though I'm inclined to personally say it is.

IMO, the current issue with Yasuo isnt anything to do with his base kit, but it is to do with the items he's building. Now I havent played League in a couple weeks because I'm abroad, so don't take anything I say as gospel or firsthand experience, but I've been told that Yasuo's arent even buying Crit Chance half the time now, and relying on the sustained damage that his resourceless, low-cd kit offers.

The theory of Yasuo (a high-damage, high-mobility, squishy character with power dependent on the situation (unit-based dashes and cc-based ulti) is balanced and well-designed. Take away the squishiness however, and you get some shitstorm wankstain dashing to and fro dealing respectable, consistent damage without suffering for it.

ArakadiaJun 21, 20167 votes

Your right, thats actually a really good point. While his mobility isn't that situational as there are usually minions or jungle creeps around (but if you even live to find one to dash to is another problem). Good point.

EDIT: Many bruisers don't have any mobility, so what does he trade for the mobility he does have?

Over InnsmouthJun 21, 20165 votes

Supposedly: squishiness, an ult reliant on cc, and an ability (windwall) that can be entirely useless if the matchup deems so.

DarkSunSovereignJun 21, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h9ediL0U,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-06-21T09:30:09.244+0000)

and an ability (windwall) that can be entirely useless if the matchup deems so.

Or be an insta-win, which is bad game design.

Over InnsmouthJun 21, 20163 votes

It does heavily shut down certain Champs, I agree.

But IMO it's not the scourge of the earth for ranged Champions it's hated for.

My Waifu VanillaJun 21, 20168 votes

Hardly insta win. It's still on a 24 second cd so it might block 1 out of every 4 projectiles in lane and it does almost nothing top lane unless you are against Gnar.

Count ZubatJun 21, 20167 votes

But pretty much negates projectile combo based champions. You just won't land that combo because wind wall.

Papa SlothyJun 22, 20164 votes

if you can't bait it out, the yasuo deserves to avoid an all in

KanzlerJun 21, 20163 votes

He literally just told you what he trades. Reliability. Reliability on his mobility as well as his ultimate.

You said you think yasuo is balanced. That alone means you think his mobility has an appropriate power budget. What is the point of this thread?

ArakadiaJun 21, 20161 votes

His ult is kinda like landing a skillshot really, anyone with a skilshot ult will have similar difficulties except Yas can fire this skill shot several times.

His mobility is situational. But its still massive mobility and situational mobility is much more than most champions even have. So sure his mobility is massive but very situational, but what does he trade for this massive, situational mobility.

KanzlerJun 22, 20163 votes

You don't seem to understand power budgets. If he didn't have that mobility, he might have more damage, more utility, higher base stats, etc to compensate.

1 thing we do know that he trades, which has been said countless times already, is RELIABILITY. It's strong when he has a minion wave, useless when there isn't one. By making him strong in some situations and weak in others, he averages to a balanced champion.

I don't know what more you are looking for when the answer has been provided since his champion spotlight.

KewlipoJun 21, 201612 votes

Going to get a lot of downvotes for this, but honestly, he is balanced.

That is Yasuo's core playstyle: mobility. When he's not mobile, he's easily killed. Grab some hard cc ( Annie Amumu Pantheon MonkeyKing Viktor Zac ...) and he becomes very vulnerable to being burst.

Also the windwall that everyone hates, it's on a VERY long cooldown, longer than many other champion's regular abilities, excluding ultimates.

Honestly, if you're a good Irelia Jax Darius Tryndamere and so on, Yasuo becomes very easy pickings.

GayFluffyUnicornJun 21, 20162 votes

People didn't care about Zed's W having such a long cooldown. When we compare yasuo W and Zed W, yasuo's W should have 35 seconds cooldown....

StaliniumJun 21, 20161 votes

COUGH Fizz's E...

why is that garbage not on the same cooldown as Zed's W?

GayFluffyUnicornJun 21, 20165 votes

I don't know. I always hated fizz for that reason. It's just bullshit Fizz can easily hop on E and completely delete Zeds ult for example and set in on full cooldown. Or Syndras ult. For that reason alone his E should have 30 seconds cooldown. Seriously.

DefendedJun 21, 201611 votes

i think he has too much in his kit tbh..

That windwall is too good

Void NargacugaJun 21, 201611 votes

He has an on-target cooldown for each champion, minion, or jungle creep he has dashed through as seen here in bold:

Sweeping Blade RANGE: 475 STATIC COOLDOWN: 0.5 / 0.4 / 0.3 / 0.2 / 0.1 On-Target Cooldown: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6

Running into your own minion waves is just giving him new targets to dash through and is just asking him to chase you. Running into the jungle is much more productive since there are MUCH less things he can see to dash to, he does require that he can see the target to dash to and the dash is a fixed distance no matter what he dashes through even if he is right next to it he dashes the same fixed distance.

CppLJun 21, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bow hunter 16,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h9ediL0U,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-06-21T06:05:13.758+0000)

He has an on-target cooldown for each champion, minion, or jungle creep he has dashed through as seen here in bold: STATIC COOLDOWN: 0.5 / 0.4 / 0.3 / 0.2 / 0.1 On-Target Cooldown: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6

Running into your own minion waves is just giving him new targets to dash through and is just asking him to chase you. Running into the jungle is much more productive since there are MUCH less things he can see to dash to, he does require that he can see the target to dash to and the dash is a fixed distance no matter what he dashes through even if he is right next to it he dashes the same fixed distance.

So when im laning against him i have to run into the jungle? well thats a new counterplay i guess...

KewlipoJun 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So when im laning against him i have to run into the jungle? well thats a new counterplay i guess...

Bow Hunter was referring to instances where you have been ganked or simply out traded by the Yasuo, and you are fleeing. Running into the Jungle is a godsend for you, as Yasuo does not have minions to e through to catch up to you.

NineTailedMysticJun 21, 20166 votes

345 Base MS, and likes to build Zeal items which all give %MS. You're not running from Yasuo either way.

CeexSettJun 21, 20165 votes

Just because he is a bit fast you don't need to run away?

Ok next time I get ganked by Hecarim I'll just stand still, since he is so fast I can't possibly get away right?

Next time I see a Rammus press Q I'm just going to leave the game, he is too fast, can't get away.

Hyrum GraffJun 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Just because he is a bit fast you don't need to run away?

Ok next time I get ganked by Hecarim I'll just stand still, since he is so fast I can't possibly get away right?

Next time I see a Rammus press Q I'm just going to leave the game, he is too fast, can't get away.

You're being sarcastic, but all of these statements are pretty much true if I'm playing an immobile champ. My only chance is to cc them before they run me down, and Yasuo will save his wind wall to block my cc if he's good.

Additionally, high base MS is harder to run from because I can cc Rammus during PowerBar and when it runs out he has low mobility again. Cc yasuo and he just keeps running.

Tychusfindlay919Jun 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h9ediL0U,comment-id=000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-21T12:08:03.726+0000)

You're being sarcastic, ~~but all of these statements are pretty much true if I'm playing an immobile champ. My only chance is to cc them before they run me down, and Yasuo will save his wind wall to block my cc if he's good.~~

Additionally, high base MS is harder to run from because I can cc Rammus during PowerBar and when it runs out he has low mobility again. Cc yasuo and he just keeps running.

Darius Did he say immobile? only chance is to block Yasuo's cc?

Nasus What are projectiles? What is running away from Yasuo?

CeexSettJun 21, 20161 votes

Irelia There is no way I can win a duel if he blocks my projectiles/CC.

Jax What are projectiles again?

Akali 5 second CD Q to 20 second CD W... I think I can do it.

Hecarim Hey Jax, when you find out tell me.

Garen I also want to know.

NineTailedMysticJun 21, 20162 votes

You know, all of those are top laners. Except Akali she can go mid or top, when the real frustrating match ups are the mages he shits on in mid lane.

CeexSettJun 21, 20161 votes

But Yasuo mid isn't rocking too hard, really. His winrate is at low forties, only passing 50% with more than 50 games, so...

NineTailedMysticJun 21, 20163 votes

frustrating match-ups. It's not fun when his W can negate a champion's entire kit, or make trying to hit him with a skillshot a chore due to E.

To be honest, no Yasuo is not a good champion. His base stats are awful, he's been nerfed into oblivion, and unless you actually know him you're not gonna do well with him. But because of how awful he is to play against he's not allowed to be strong.

67chromeJun 21, 20167 votes

Currently Yasuo is balanced (I think) but trades nothing for his mobility really

He's melee ranged and extremely squishy, seems like a fair trade off.

Especially when champions like Nasus and Volibear can deal tons of damage with crazy defense and champions like Lux and Ziggs can deal tons of damage from max range. I'm not sure if I'd even call Yasou's mobility that great considering it's only a med-range dash he must target an enemy with, repeat casts or no. Yasou's mobility is predominantly only useful for offense and lacks a lot in regards to defensive mobility, being limited to uses more akin to Amumu's bandage toss or Malphite's unstoppable force than something like Vayne's Tumble or Nidalee's Pounce where it's always available to sidestep oncoming danger as well as available to run away.

NineTailedMysticJun 21, 20161 votes

Nasus and Volibear

Requires stacks, no mobility

Requires ramp up time for W, only an MS increase.

Lux and Ziggs

Skillshot reliant, no mobility

Skillshot reliant, long CD mobility that might take his enemy with him.

Malphite's Unstoppable Force

He can totally use this to run away.

Trust me I hate Lux, and while I think she's braindead to play, she at least has to aim.

67chromeJun 21, 20162 votes

Requires stacks, no mobility Skillshot reliant, no mobility

My point is mostly that defense, mobility, and range seem to be counterbalanced against one-another.

Nasus and Volibear are about as defensive as you can get, so they have minimal mobility and range. Lux and Ziggs are as ranged as you can get, so they have minimal mobility and defense. Yasou is pretty mobile: and lacks a lot of range and defense.

Valor BotJun 21, 20167 votes

My problem with Yasuo is that he seems to lack clear windows of vulnerability in lane. Wanna poke him? He's got his passive shield. Wanna hurt him after his shield is down? He's got his wind wall. Want to trade with him? Cool -- he'll just dash in, knock you up, and dash back out before you can retaliate. By that time, his passive shield is already back up because it's generated by moving, and good Yasuo players will always be on the move. It just feels like Yasuo's the one that's always holding the cards.

MunchCrunchLunchJun 22, 20165 votes

lol I knew it. i called it i knew people gonna start complaining about Yasuo after zed. anyway. I do think the style of Eing and knocking me up landing 2-3 autos and then backing out while his shield absorbs any trade damage is just the most frustrating thing ever

HellsTrueKingJun 22, 20165 votes

First let me say that I just recently picked up Yasuo and find him fun, yet challenging; however, I do believe there are a few problems with him.

He gets doulbe crit chance. That's a little too much in my opinion, but I do believe that he should have something in that realm.
His W. Personally I think its a neat idea but blocks too much.
His mobility. While he does have high mobility, I don't think it's his biggest problem.
His shield. I don't necessarily think its a good idea to give him a free shield given all the other utility he possesses.

Now after all those problems, he does have a few trade offs that kinda even him out.

He is SUPER squishy, as an assassin should be. This almost makes up for most of his problems. He needs to move in & out and block attacks because even the slightest breeze will blow him away (that was an accident).
He is SSSOOOOOOOOO DIFFICULT to play. This might be his best drawback. If you've ever played him, you know he is no Lux. Due to his high difficulty, you need a ton of practice to be relatively useful. While a great Yasuo can carry, a decent to bad one can drag his team down.

That all being said, I do believe a couple "small" things can help. ⚫ Lower his crit magnification, you don't have to delete it, just lower it. ⚫ Give a limit to how much he can block with W (not sure about this one).

Eclipse1337Jun 21, 20164 votes

What do you mean? He trades mobility for having no mana! https://media1.giphy.com/media/xT1XGwogKYOqAr9Cx2/giphy.gif

A Basic IslandJun 21, 20163 votes

so, you're saying he's balanced

but you want his mobility nerfed

lolwat

stfu

is being squishy, his mobility being 100% situational, and his ult ALSO being situational not enough?

ArakadiaJun 21, 20163 votes

Please don't tell me to stfu when you didn't even read the post.

I don't want Yasuo to be nerfed. I was pointing out I didn't see his flaws really. His mobility is however situational, but he really doesn't trade the fact that his super mobility is situational for anything. Alot of champions have no situational mobility, or any mobility as a matter of fact.

He can get targeted ults btw with a E>Q combo. And I'm talking about what does he trade for mobility, not his ult.

Rinky DinkyJun 21, 20163 votes

He trades reliable CC, base stats, and tankyness.

The mobility is also situational, as is his Ult, as is his damage.

invisiblecat1Jun 21, 20163 votes

YES KILL IT DIE YASUO DIE item 3751 Yasuo

ArakadiaJun 21, 20162 votes

I'm not asking for nerfs, but an answer for what he actually trades for his mobility.

Blue Moon WolfJun 21, 20163 votes

Honestly, resourceless kits are just really big on the no trade off thing. You would expect them to have higher cooldowns to compensate for the abilities being free, but then you see plenty of champs who have long cooldowns on abilities that cost mana to use.

In a perfect world, Mana would mean low cooldowns, resourceless kits would have high cooldowns, energy would be somewhere in between and Health based kits would vary based on how much health their abilities use and what they have to restore that health.

Pika FoxJun 22, 20163 votes

His mobility is gated behind a short range and requiring a target within said range.

He is also melee, meaning his mobility can be higher since his overall threat range is low.

ArthimetesJun 21, 20162 votes

Hes hardly squishy anymore, every yasuo I see rushes statik shiv then tank (like every other assassin with low cd's and high base damage)

Rito u need to reduce assassin base damage and increase scaling across the board, this is getting out of hand.

SOLOQSUPERHEROJun 21, 20162 votes

I have two really huge complaints about Yasuo.

His Ult has wayyyyyy to long of a delay to be active. On nami, if you bubble him, and you get knocked up, he can still ult you after your cc is finished. It was point blank for the record.

For a champion that is so difficult to pin down for certain champions, you ABSOLUTELY should be rewarded for doing so. It's pretty bogus that the delay time is so high.

His lane phase for certain champions is extremely punishing. My champ pool honestly is not good against him, I can play around him but he just has an answer to far too many things.

Does he really need the high mobility, the high base value shield with a short recharge time and duration, and the wind wall - which sure it has a large cooldown at low ranks, but the duration is pretty long in itself.

I think there's a lot of ways to make him a little bit more reasonable, mainly hitting the duration of a lot of his skills. Keeping his outplay potential there but just reducing the window on his ult follow up, shield and wind wall would go a long way.

MalignisJun 21, 20163 votes

I had this exact problem the other night too. I was playing Taliyah mid against a Yas and it was fine, I ended up getting ganked and so I was fleeing through the jungle, I figured I was a safe enough distance away so I threw out an e w combo, however Yas also threw out his nado at the same time. Both of our abilities went off at the same time, but despite the fact that our cc should have ended at the same time, he was able to ult me. The delay on his ult should be changed, there is no reason why he should be able to get it off when you crowd control him during his knockup.

The large distance he can cover instantly, the cc, the armor pen, and the refreshed shield should be rewarded for precise timing and avoidance of enemy cc, the window for activation is just too long.

SeraphizeJun 22, 20162 votes

Poke? No mana? Trades nothing for their mobility? No idea what you're talking about Katarina

CasterGilgameshJun 22, 20165 votes

kats laning phase is terrible this is why she isnt common pick in ranked as much as other champions like zed yasuo

SociopathFriendJun 22, 20162 votes

He trades a little- using it forces him to push the lane- which opens him up to Jungler ganks.

As a Malz main lemme tell you- that's no small thing to be forced to perma-push a lane.

arc95Jun 22, 20162 votes

he is only mobile in a minion wave he has no mobility outside of it...and he must manage his mobility in the wave since he has a long cd when redashing to the same point... where many other champs have mobility regardless of location Ahri Azir Corki Ekko Ezreal Kassadin Riven Shen Lucian etc

they all have dashes/blinks with mana or without... on long cd and short... many have multiple dashes

also his dash like windwall/ flow shield are integral in his kit if your nerf those you have to buff him else where or he will be trash... because he uses these abilities to dodge or mitigate damage so limiting his dashes will mean you have to buff his surviveability

Sire HippingtonJun 22, 20162 votes

Currently Yasuo is balanced (I think) but trades nothing for his mobility really

Thats quite a paradox statement. If Yasuo is balanced, he obviously does trade something for his mobillity. If he trades nothing for it, then he also isn't balanced. What yasuo trades for all the things he has in his kit is reliabillity. His mobillity, poke and cc and to some extend damage are all conditional. Unlike a riven or zed, he can't just use his mobillity whenever he feels like it, he needs an opposing target. He also has a rather slow dash, with fixed range(running towards a yasuo that is about to dash into you will make him miss the Q as he dashes to far behind you) and that gets interupted by any hard cc, not just displaces. His knockup needs him to built up stacks, so he doesn't really have it at the start of a fight, the full shield can be poped by something as little as a sunfire-tick, his Q can miss, his windwall has a huge cd, and the ult needs a knockup as setup.

Imo if there is any issue with yasuo, then it's the windwall, or more it's duration to be specific, and the AA dps with his double crit. imo his Q should be his main dps source, as it is avoidable, but currently his AAs just deal more damage while beeing more reliable, makeing him rather easy mode once he gets a lead. Another big issue is his laneingphase, as most restrains mean little here. He has plenty of targets for the dash, can stack up the knockup befor trades and can play defensivly to wait for his passive and windwall. A good way of adressing this would be showing the E-cd to opponents(the circles that show which targets he already dashed to and how long it needs till he can dash to them again). With that information, it would be much easier to position in a way that prevents him from closeing in easily and/or getting out again, just how you avoid to stay next to a low health creep vs irelia.