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@Meddler: Tank Fizz is a problem, when and how will this be addressed?

Tundra Fizz·6/2/2016, 8:47:47 PM·63 votes·5,904 views

I've been pretty surprised that there have been no changes to fix the issue that is tank Fizz in the last several PBE updates. Building tank items like IBG, Sunfire, Spirit Visage, and Banshee's Veil is too good thanks to Fizz's W.

This image should speak for itself.

http://i.imgur.com/2l3JpY7.jpg

14 of those 16 games is where Fizz was played top with tank items just because it's so much more superior compared to bringing him mid.

I also noticed that Fizz has a couple nerfs planned for him on the PBE which was put up today.

http://i.imgur.com/Xc9vY3V.png

Removing his ghosted passive will have an extremely small effect on top Fizz, but it will hurt mid Fizz a lot more because he heavily relies on it when dealing with mages.

Similarly, top Fizz doesn't value Playful/Trickster as much as Seastone Trident. You ALWAYS max W when going top so you can easily bully your lane opponent while building tanky. Your E is mainly used for utility and you likely will only use it once anyways during any engagement.

As for mid Fizz's Playful/Trickster, this is the skill that should be maxed since he relies on it a lot more than W. Since it much more valuable compared to Seastone Trident, it will again hurt mid Fizz a lot more.

TL;DR

Top Fizz is a problem, and the current nerfs will do almost nothing to solve top Fizz from running rampant. The nerfs will however have a large effect on mid Fizz.

Assuming the current nerfs go through, there will be almost no reason to play Fizz mid when you can just go top and faceroll your opponent since the nerfs will barely scratch what makes top Fizz strong.

53 Comments

Fisherman Fízz6/2/2016, 8:53:11 PM25 votes

They should nerf his W % missing health passive and maybe increase the AP ratio to benifit the AP builds over the tank ones, that should work. I also agree that removing the ghost part from his passive will hurt his mid laning alot.

Juru171Galuth6/2/2016, 8:54:48 PM13 votes

a fizz main that isn't biased?????

Quepha6/3/2016, 6:05:59 AM9 votes

Nerfing the free ghost just seems like the wrong direction to take Fizz no matter what you're trying to accomplish.

The main thing it hits is his really early lane phase which is already at unplayably bad levels, and it was thematically very fitting for a tiny, slippery fish to squeeze past any other units.

IAMS4T4N6/2/2016, 9:11:24 PM7 votes

wait ur logical and not biased?????? nice!!

FiddlesOnTheRoof6/2/2016, 9:16:23 PM7 votes

Riot only balances around pro play.they don't care about the 99.9% of players that aren't pros...they EXCLUSIVELY balance around lcs. Tank fizz will be a staple of summer split, so don't worry, he will be nerfed in a few weeks after being high priority in pro play. On another note, why is it so hard for them to figure out that tank items are over tuned right now? Diana, akali, fizz, and ekko can all build tank and have great dps. Personally think they should just gut his w scaling UNLESS he builds ap

Tychusfindlay9196/2/2016, 10:46:06 PM6 votes

Ehhh his playful trickster cd needs to be bumped a bit. My disagreement with riot is bumping it up early game.

Instead, it should be so that late game the cooldown is higher but the early game remains unaffected.

But 5 second terrain hopping invul/untargetable is just fucking garbage.

RdePZ6L3ru6/2/2016, 11:45:46 PM5 votes

This is a recurring problem with a wide variety of champions, honestly. I don't understand why Riot doesn't just flat out buff the AP/AD scaling of certain champions (Akali Fiora Fizz Ekko MasterYi to name a few) in exchange for nerfing their base damage/base damage scaling. This resolves the problem of traditional full-tank builds, while keeping their midlane/assassin damage intact. Simply flat nerfing champions isn't going to change anything. Re-balancing them into their /intended roles/ will actually help out with "diversity" in the long run as well. Rather than having a handful of gimmicky picks that are FOTM, giving each champion a unique role and identity will ensure that each is picked according to their merits, rather than how ridiculously powerful they are due to certain item releases.

MunchCrunchLunch6/2/2016, 10:04:11 PM4 votes

iceborn gauntlet is the problem. honestly if you want to be a tank that absords damage ibg is bad and frozen heart is way better. cdr and damage. also base damages ans masteries. most tank items are not stat efficient. they are weaker than they used to be last season. also they cost more. the only thing that changed is masteries. also when ad carries get so much dps their sustained damage turns to burst you don't have much of a choice but to build tanky.

just rework ibg. remove the sheen.

also i dont want to see any buffs to ap fizz because its strong regardless. and the ghosting on passive hurts him more in top because of longer extended trades in minion wave top. meanwhile mid fizz usually goes in for burst with ap builds.

fizz obviously destroys tanks with his W. also he does more damage than ekko after his 3 nerfs.

Shadow Hazard6/2/2016, 10:17:37 PM4 votes

Part of the issue is that the AA damage reduction on his passive actually scales the more tanky he gets, but for full yolo damage fizz, it is really useless. Building armor and magic resist plus smart usage of E helps tank fizz deal with burst really well, and the AA damage reduction from his passive acts like bonus armor against AA type champs that he will already be having armor against.

The best way to deal with the passive tank synergy would be to give it a permanent damage reduction that only scales with ap. That will take away a good component from tank fizz and reward the ap fizz players for building and take away a strong component from tank fizz. Also a point to think about as long as E is fizz's only form of AoE sunfire will be too good to pass up for farming in lane.

Calabok6/2/2016, 9:02:23 PM4 votes

Sweet! Mid fizz is too annoying

devdev4636/3/2016, 11:51:36 PM4 votes

I feel for you fizz mains. I always used to call fizz brainless but after you play him you realize he does take some skill to play and that makes you feel a little salty inside. But tank fizz really is cancerously easy to play it's disgusting and I feel bad when I play it. I bet most ekko players felt exactly the same when tank ekko was a thing.

Eedat6/2/2016, 10:24:02 PM3 votes

It'll be addressed when Riot fixes the itemization. They need to stop putting damage on tank items. They also need to stop cramming CDR onto every item they possibly can.

Gnart Even Close6/2/2016, 11:19:34 PM3 votes

I mean, I don't think anyone but Fizz mains will complain about Fizz mid nerfs. But they should be focusing their nerfs more on tank top Fizz than AP mid Fizz since he's the greater of two evils. Fizz really needs a rework, he's such a toxic champion to play against. The only good thing is that he has to use his E to do everything, so he can't hold on to it if he really wants to do damage. He really should have to land an ult to be able to kill someone though, and he should be easily punishable for messing up his E. Tank Fizz simply put shouldn't be a thing ever, and if it was, then it should be really suboptimal compared to assassin Fizz.

CerealBoxOfDoom6/2/2016, 10:50:05 PM3 votes

"DUUUURRRRRR LETS INCREASE THE PLAYFUL TRICKER COOLDOWN SO I'LL FEEL LESS STOOPID WHEN I FUCKUP" ~Gameplay forums

next day he has to legasp, play like an assassin while still full tank and anticipate the few more seconds of fail you are gonna throw at him uselessly.

meanwhile an AP assassin continues doing sustained % hp damage with an onhit undertower farming ability

kk

Sohleks6/2/2016, 9:35:06 PM2 votes

Yeah, with the Triforce and Wits End buffs tank fizz will probably be even more problematic.

Adjustments to the base damage need to be considered before attacking the E cooldown.

Sad because 1-2 extra W ranks is quite a valuable slightly niche option for even AP mid fizz.

Voluug136/3/2016, 1:47:22 AM2 votes

Maybe its time to analize why an assassin has an anti-tank tool, instead of nerfing tank itemization even more because of TumorFish.

Swiftstrike46/2/2016, 8:59:08 PM2 votes

Tank fizz may replace tank Ekko? Not sure, but both champions are similar in terms of their damage and mobility. Just Ekko had CC while fizz doesn't. I don't see a lot of tank fizzes yet.

Ultîma6/3/2016, 4:22:06 PM2 votes

It isn't tank Fizz that's the problem - it's Fizz's kit. % DoT Health damage, invulnerability, high stats... Fizz doesn't have a kit that gives him the ability to do anything if he doesn't 1-shot someone, or for anyone to respond in case he does. He needs a rework, badly.

Irelia Bot6/3/2016, 12:33:30 AM1 votes

Nimble Fighter (Passive) no longer ignores unit collision. Playful / Trickster (E) cooldown increased to 18/16/14/12/10 from 16/14/12/10/8

Looks like they will try something in 6.12

But this seems like an all around fizz nerf more then anything.

Troll for Trump6/3/2016, 6:14:23 AM1 votes

tl;dr His E is a problem with Fizz as a whole, his W is abused more on Top Fizz, but on Ap fizz, it's not as annoying as his Q/E on 45% CDR.

Menstruating6/3/2016, 1:47:35 PM1 votes

I hope he gets Ekko'd

EpicMusic6/3/2016, 2:19:34 PM1 votes

NOOOOOO MY PLAYFUL/TRICKSTER </3

Darios6/3/2016, 2:22:14 PM1 votes

Darius

Rush item 3065

What is tank fizz?

SuperSizeCoke6/3/2016, 8:41:50 PM1 votes

This is so true. I couldn't put this any better myself.

MLDzXnRRR6/3/2016, 6:10:56 PM1 votes

Fizz is not a "CC machine" and only his fish deals some dmg without AP...

YveItaI6/3/2016, 4:43:56 AM1 votes

Kinda agree with you op.

Personally, I love playing Fizz as he is just a champ I've playing since around season 4~, and as soon as this tank bullshit popped up my heart dropped. This is basically the time where either Riot is going to tear Fizz to pieces in all roles in time over the tank bullshit, or they will cut to the chase and find some way to circumvent the appeal to building tank.

I may not know the answer to fix the issue, but seeing them take the ghost off his passive is going to be one of many steps to fuck over Fizz in the wrong way. Hope this thread can gain enough traction to at least stop some wrongly placed nerfs or something.

stealthfox946/3/2016, 5:31:57 AM1 votes

Legit just played it, went 8/1/11 my only death was when I was roaming and got caught out by the entire enemy team. I also had AD runes by accident.