How to counter Kayn as Zoe?

Lady Luminous·Nov 30, 2017·2 votes·1,429 views

Kayn can walk through the sleep, dodge her q and then proceed to one shot her. I dont see any way except being lucky enough to catch him with his wall walking ability on cooldown and hiting the E+R+Q1+Q2 combo. And Zoe seems underwhelming when fighting against champions that have a lot of long ranged aoe damadge (Lux,Annie). She is really fun though and I love her design, it just seems hard to play her in the current meta with a lot of tanks and Kayn jumping around. Also what should she Zoe be doing during big team fights?

15 Comments

Gives No LuxNov 30, 20174 votes

Kayne, and any other assassin for that matter, is the natural counter to Zoe. If you want to beat him in a 1v1 you're going to need a pretty good outplay. Wait for him to come out of the wall, then while you're dodging his W land your bubble while he's stuck in the casting animation. If he's shadow assassin well, then good luck, shadow assassin pretty much kills any immobile mage. Wards are your only hope.

JustMonika13Dec 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gives No Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=guf76mUB,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-30T21:50:34.762+0000)

Kayne, and any other assassin for that matter, is the natural counter to Zoe. If you want to beat him in a 1v1 you're going to need a pretty good outplay. Wait for him to come out of the wall, then while you're dodging his W land your bubble while he's stuck in the casting animation. If he's shadow assassin well, then good luck, shadow assassin pretty much kills any immobile mage. Wards are your only hope.

Really? I’ve been doing well on Zoe (or at least breaking even) against any Assassin who’s name isn’t Kassadin. Then again, I play in Silver-Low Gold MMR, no one has a clue as to what goes on here in Hell. Her bubble does give Assassins an incredibly tough time though.

redniwediSNov 30, 20172 votes

Some champions are fairly reliable and can be easily played into difficult matchups. Others are more feast or famine, and can't function properly against certain champions. Zoe is in the latter group.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 30, 20172 votes

Zhonya's, timing your bubble better, and prepping your Q for right after he comes out of ult. Saving any Exhaust you pull with you W will help a good amount. Or, if he goest Rhaast, saving your ignite(s) will help, too.

Some champions just aren't meant to do well into certain others, though.

aCup of TeaDec 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Some champions just aren't meant to do well into certain others, though.

Amen to that!

WeedbroNov 30, 20171 votes

hit kayne with sleepy bubble :)

Lady LuminousNov 30, 20171 votes

His ability that makes him walk through walls counters that completely.

AzadetheNov 30, 20171 votes

Kayn's actually pretty easy to counter with Zoe. Just keep moving. Dodge his E so that he can't get the ult off, and if he ults, Zhonya. if you know how to dance with him, you can sleep him if he gets too close, and then you can punish him or get away.

The key is not to get near walls. If he lacks walls to reach you through, he has to come down a lane. If he has to run at you, it's linear, which means you can sleep easy, given his range.

He isn't like Kha or Rengar who can 1 hit easy. You have time to react. use the same kit you use vs Zed: expect the dive and sleep defensively.

aCup of TeaDec 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Kayn's actually pretty easy to counter with Zoe. Just keep moving. Dodge his E so that he can't get the ult off, and if he ults, Zhonya. if you know how to dance with him, you can sleep him if he gets too close, and then you can punish him or get away.

The key is not to get near walls. If he lacks walls to reach you through, he has to come down a lane. If he has to run at you, it's linear, which means you can sleep easy, given his range.

He isn't like Kha or Rengar who can 1 hit easy. You have time to react. use the same kit you use vs Zed: expect the dive and sleep defensively.

I can't imagine a Zoe player avoiding walls. Just pick Lux or something of similar burst potential if you run away from walls with Zoe ;0.

Btw, I don't think it's easy, his ult is up after he AAs you and he will get there it's not difficult for Kayn to get to Zoe. It's just one of the champions that are stronger against Zoe them most of the others. He can dodge buble pretty easily as well as Q and then it's good bye for Zoe.

AzadetheDec 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=aCup of Tea,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=guf76mUB,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-01T00:00:16.659+0000)

I can't imagine a Zoe player avoiding walls. Just pick Lux or something of similar burst potential if you run away from walls with Zoe ;0.

Btw, I don't think it's easy, his ult is up after he AAs you and he will get there it's not difficult for Kayn to get to Zoe. It's just one of the champions that are stronger against Zoe them most of the others. He can dodge buble pretty easily as well as Q and then it's good bye for Zoe.

You need to be able to decide when to be defensive and when to be offensive. Offensive Zoe likes walls. Defensive Zoe doesn't, as Talon, Kayn , and a few of the others which tend to be able to kill Zoe generally all play with walls.

He can't dodge a bubble. If you can't hit him with a Bubble at 500 range, you shouldn't be playing Zoe. By the time he's anywhere near you he should be asleep, and you should be poking and running. If he Flashes, you should be picking it up for extra damage to use against him.

aCup of TeaDec 1, 20171 votes

I'm sure defensive lay as Zoe without walls is just your loss. Using bubbles over walls defensively works great for Zoe and her team, if you don't use it you are losing half of the potential she has for nothing.

Kayne can q the buble even from melee range because Zoe E has a wind up and isn't instant with high particle velocity. Try playing against a decent Kayn and you will see or just try a custom game with a friend to see timings. Considering he will have higher ms as well because of runes and items it's as I said before definitely not an easy match for Zoe.

if you are looking for an easy match then try Zoe against champs such as ziggs, or others with skillshots and no mobility. Kai' is certainly not an easy match up no matter what you do. if you think you can hit a bubble you should compare it to an opponent who can with the same ease dodge it. His ult will also make him avoid your spells as well when he gets on you.

AzadetheDec 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=aCup of Tea,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=guf76mUB,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-01T19:33:25.614+0000)

I'm sure defensive lay as Zoe without walls is just your loss. Using bubbles over walls defensively works great for Zoe and her team, if you don't use it you are losing half of the potential she has for nothing.

Kayne can q the buble even from melee range because Zoe E has a wind up and isn't instant with high particle velocity. Try playing against a decent Kayn and you will see or just try a custom game with a friend to see timings. Considering he will have higher ms as well because of runes and items it's as I said before definitely not an easy match for Zoe.

if you are looking for an easy match then try Zoe against champs such as ziggs, or others with skillshots and no mobility. Kai' is certainly not an easy match up no matter what you do. if you think you can hit a bubble you should compare it to an opponent who can with the same ease dodge it. His ult will also make him avoid your spells as well when he gets on you.

You don't seem to understand. If you are being chased by a champ that is sure to kill you, being away from a wall is much smarter than being near one. Sleep bubble through a wall is nearly always offensive, unless to save an ally whose out of place.

Kayn's Q is 350 core range. Bubble is 800. If you aren't standing next to a wall, you should have plenty of time to aim and proc a bubble. If he Q's sideways to dodge it, fake him out on a run. Go into a bush he doesn't have warded, and then as he goes in, dodge right back out if he hasn't warded ahead of himself, and by then your bubble should be up again. Or, just be smart and don't cast it until it's a sure thing. He will likely use a flash in this exchange of trickery, so you'll also have another tool to get away or set up a kill.

aCup of TeaDec 2, 20171 votes

It seems you are kind of misusing some comparisons here.

First of all no it's not smarter it's still worse then not using them. When someone chases you it's better to go around walls and use corners and walls to your advantage. You can Q him when he chases you from fog of war. Same with E. It's much more difficult to dodge if you can't see it.

For your information Kayn leaves a spot which will always be visible for you so just aim your bubble there and use the wall to bait him into showing you where he will leave that's a 100% hit you can't miss it because he can't dodge it at that momet that's why you use walls defensively too.

If you want to compare some random situation which goes (from your perspective not mine) the best for Zoe you are misusing comparison logic. You could very well draw the best scenario for Kayn where Zoe can do anything. If you can fake it why couldn't he or why would he even take that bait. I can imagine a scenario where ziggs destroys zed but oh man that isn't even close to what reality is.

In a straight up 1v1 Kayn wins most of them if the players are of comparable skill. That's all that is to it. They both use environment to a degree but Kayn has all tools to kill Zoe while she doesn't have any mobility to escape unless she has a sum spell from her W.

Btw there is no sure hit on E if enemy assassin has spell shield, mobility, invulnerability and high burst.

AzadetheDec 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=aCup of Tea,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=guf76mUB,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-02T02:11:38.077+0000)

It seems you are kind of misusing some comparisons here.

First of all no it's not smarter it's still worse then not using them. When someone chases you it's better to go around walls and use corners and walls to your advantage. You can Q him when he chases you from fog of war. Same with E. It's much more difficult to dodge if you can't see it.

For your information Kayn leaves a spot which will always be visible for you so just aim your bubble there and use the wall to bait him into showing you where he will leave that's a 100% hit you can't miss it because he can't dodge it at that momet that's why you use walls defensively too.

If you want to compare some random situation which goes (from your perspective not mine) the best for Zoe you are misusing comparison logic. You could very well draw the best scenario for Kayn where Zoe can do anything. If you can fake it why couldn't he or why would he even take that bait. I can imagine a scenario where ziggs destroys zed but oh man that isn't even close to what reality is.

In a straight up 1v1 Kayn wins most of them if the players are of comparable skill. That's all that is to it. They both use environment to a degree but Kayn has all tools to kill Zoe while she doesn't have any mobility to escape unless she has a sum spell from her W.

Btw there is no sure hit on E if enemy assassin has spell shield, mobility, invulnerability and high burst.

You can use the corner without being near it, and you certainly don't use that when vs a Kayn.
he can dodge in a wall. Most kayn's don't wall walk in a straight line, and most of the fights won't actually happen when a Kayn engaging via wall. he tends to save it as an escape when possible if he's a good Kayn. The spot is VERY unreliable unless it's on the edge of a map outside a lane.
The person asked how to counter kayn and most people are saying you can't. I'm saying you can, and how. Don't shoot the messenger. I've only played Zoe a handful of time and I've killed like 9 Kayns. Only had 1 kill me.

aCup of TeaDec 2, 20171 votes

You misunderstood what I typed.

Kayn is forced to leave the wall by the ability and the spot is telegraphed to everyone by a colored dot he can't avoid it he can't choose a different spot when the ability forces him. That's when you can reliably land your E on him. If he decides to leaver earlier that's a different matter but he will always leave at that one spot even if he wants to leave earlier but that's not a reliable hit anymore at that point.

You use walls against kayn even close because you can hit him in that wall bro and especially when his walk through the wall ability is on cd.

You literally said: "Kayn's actually pretty easy to counter with Zoe." I'm saying that's is far from easy and that counter is kayn to zoe not the other way around.

Your 10 games say as much as nothing. As I stated several times already on paper kayn beats zoe in a match of equally skilled players kayn beats zoe again.

I beat people with champs that should lose too because they just play worse at these moments but it says nothing about either of the champions or their potential.

That's all I'm saying. If you still think no mobility, squishy, mage is a counter to ad assassin with mobility, slow, knockup, invulnerability then let's leave this conversation. I'm sure that others can take al lthey need from this.