Math Evidence to remove Garen's True Damage

K54··1 votes·1,473 views

Chogath Darius Fiora Irelia MasterYi Twitch Vayne Ahri KogMaw Olaf Zyra Velkoz Gangplank all are true damage dealing champs.

The only one that comes even remotely close to putting up the numbers Garen does is Darius , but to do this he would basically have to be a glass cannon.

Many other champions deal OP burst/single attack damage such as the following: JayceKalista = 20% max health magic damage TahmKench = 32% max health magic damage DrMundo = 25% current health magic damage Evelynn = 25% current health magic damage Malzahar = 30% max health magic damage This is not a problem, the defense to this is item 1033

Then you have the ridiculous Garen Jinx ults Garen = 525 + 40% missing health magic damage Not a problem, all you need is item 1033

Jinx = 450 (+100% bonus ad scaling) + 35% missing health physical damage Not a problem, all you need is item 1029

Lastly, you have Garen "The Villain Killer" Garen = 525 + 40% missing health TRUE DAMAGE

Absolutely nothing at all that can be done about that unless you happen to be Fiora Nocturne Sivir and that ability isn't on CD.

So let's talk numbers now.

The villain is Amumu This match will be my reference http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2042144396/50791689?tab=overview I had roughly 3500 health Let's say I lose 2200 health, leaving me with 1300 health.

2 Scenarios:

  1. They were in the fight the whole time, their team is dead, if they can take me out, they have a chance when their team respawns.
  2. I TP to enemy Nexus, has 3 hits left, they run up to me and instantly ult, if they kill me, they win because our Nexus is also exposed and their team about to respawn.

Darius1 - He has his 5 stacks and ults me, does 900 true damage (max attainable when building full tank), I have 400 health left. My team kills him, I'm still alive, they have no chance.

Garen1 - Base damage (525) + the 40% missing health (880) = 1405 true damage (105 overkill). He wipes out the rest of my team due to his super tankiness since his W is 30% damage reduction and his team wins.

Darius2 - Runs up and ults. doesn't have any stacks so he does 450 damage. I laugh then dance for about 4 seconds before I finish the Nexus with my 850 health left.

Garen2 - runs up and ults, does 1405 damage, kills me, his team wins.

Ignoring the 105 overkill damage, how much bonus AD would Darius need to do 1300 true damage.

600 + 1.5(200 + x) = 1300 600 = base damage with 5 stacks of hemorrhage 1.5 = bonus attack damage percent scaling with 5 stacks of hemorrhage 200 = Bonus AD from Noxian Might passive X = Amount of AD you need to build 1300 = final damage Darius would need 267 itemized attack damage to kill me. Basically, he'd be a glass cannon and you'd never actually get close to your target, you'd be better off using an assassin.

10 Comments

ZerglingOne2 votes

Yes. The only one... Fiora the ooooooonly one.

At 100 bonus AD the ult is 48% max HP true damage. Which is better in nearly every measurable way and has that sexy heal attached to it. It also is whoever she chooses to target.

Oh or how about Vayne who 100% chooses the target who receives her true damage. 4 procs is the same as Fiora's ultimate while having even fewer stipulations.

Chogath ultimate is best used as an opener rather than a finisher once you have full stacks because it does its full damage regardless. Cho also has ranged hard CC, and an AoE silence.

And you're really comparing a global range skill shot AoE execute to a 200 range single target execute that only does true damage against 1 person on the enemy team? Come on man.

And Malzahar ? Are you really going to go there? Even being conservative, that W deals at least 55% of your max HP over the duration...in a rather large AoE.

Garen has many problems... His ult ain't one of 'em.

Also, your scenarios are horribly flawed because your team would be respawning as theirs did if everyone died in a catastrophic team fight, and the opposing team have nothing to fall back to.

K541 votes

Your numbers are extremely exaggerated (maybe you're just bad at math) and you're not considering a realistic ranked match scenario.

Fiora with 100 bonus AD does 7.5% max health true damage per vital strike. Her ult makes 4 vital spots. 7.5% x 4 = 30% max health damage Which is never going to happen against Amumu or any tank at all for that matter. Fiora would need 6 item 3072 to do 21% max damage health true damage per attack, but she die instantly after that 1st attack.

Vayne does true damage every 3 shots for 12% max health. She won't live long enough to AA a tank 25 times. Even at 2.5 shots per second, that's 10 seconds.

Cho'gath true damage is a joke to tanks. He has to sacrifice a lot of tankiness himself. The formula to match Darius is 650 + .7x = 900 so he needs 360 ability power. Again, the Amumu and other tanks will have already dealt with the squishy Cho'gath by then.

Your Malzahar would need 550 AP for that and and a tank is only taking max 45% of that damage since it's magic damage. So after you burn your ult keeping me in your pool, and you're left with no mobility, you die very quickly squishy man.

If you didn't take what I typed out of context, I said every other champ mentioned is acceptable. The only unacceptable champ is Garen when he's doing true damage to tanks.

ZerglingOne1 votes

My bad on the Fiora numbers, fat fingered my calculator. But even still, 30% max HP is better than 40% missing HP because they only become equivalent when they're missing 75% of their max health, and there's gonna be overkill then. Yes, there is base damage involved with garen's ult but still. Malz W is 55% at 500 AP, not 550. 500 AP is nothing for a full 6 item AP build.

Also, how does full tank garen get an enemy tank to be missing 2/3 of its hp? Last time I checked, he can deal about 12-15% of their max HP with the true damage on the villain passive, where does the magical other 51% come from without his team around?

In one of your scenarios you mention the nexus has 3 hits left and you're for some unknown reason teleporting in while not at full health. At full health Garen runs up and ults you for 525 damage. Lolk.

I'll level with you, the villain mechanic is dumb as hell, but it's not OP, at least not anymore. A single target, and let's be clear, only possibly single target unlike Darius, melee range, stipulated to hell to be true damage execution ability is not outside the realm of balanced.

K541 votes

Do you know who nearly impossible it is for Fiora to land vital spots with more than 2 enemies around? I'd love to spectate a match with 2 people of equal skill level and a Fiora that consistently lands her vital, I could learn a lot from their strategy. I can't recall allowing a Fiora to consistently hit me since it shows me where my vital spot is, I can always position myself in a spot that puts her at the mercy of my minions if she dives in.

As for full tank Garen, I was referring to team fights, since in the matches I've been melted by him, I was playing tank and I normally lead the engage. It's common for me to pick up triple and quadra kills with Amumu, hard to touch anybody at all in a team fight if I'm the villain though. Which is why I stress their being two tanks when Garen is on the other team, just incase one tank is villain, we still have a front line. The Garen ult was referring to a team fight though. Even if it wasn't, you can't trade in lane with Garen. His 1% true damage, spamming silence, E and his 30% damage reduction, you'll never win that trade.

On to the Nexus comment, that was a real situation. After a team game team fight, the enemy team had Garen and Ezreal left alive. I was the only survivor, Shen (I got away by going over a wall in the jg). Regardless, They rushed to our Nexus when they lost vision and instead of recalling I summoner 12 to my super minion in their base.

Garen recalled when he saw the giant purple swirling vortex about to appear in his base and instagibbed me with his ult, their Ezreal would have won the game but our inhibitor respawned, by the time he destroyed it our super minions had already got us the victory.

Regardless, I fully agree with everything you said in a world of perfect execution, but I'm a noob bronze player and Fiora's in my league (including myself) don't intelligently target vitals. I just don't think the villain mechanic should apply to tanks. Tanks are protectors, if your squishy ADC or assassin dies to item 3068 or the "Undying Grasp" keystone, it doesn't make me a villain lol.

Team fights are hopeless once the tank is gone. You lose an ADC or assassin, you can defend until the respawn, you lose your tanks and your whole team gets instant melted or has to fall back and give free objectives.

bug234512 votes

I'm a Garen main and I love Garen due to how tanky he is, in my opinion the 5.16 patch where they added the villan mechanic was an absolute train wreck. Giving Garen ( and Skarner) so much conditional damage makes the game feel really bumpy as it can take you 4 seconds to kill that tank nasus because his villan and then not being able to kill him later with 2 teammates helping just because he isn't villan is really stupid. Also in my opinion Garen was going just fine and didnt need a buff, if anything a nerf or removal to his old W passive (30% bouns armour and magic resist)

K541 votes

Finally someone who understands. What people also fail to realize is that every other champ has to be build a certain way to reach the level of power Garen showcases. On the other hand, the only thing Garen must do is acknowledge the other teams offense and build tanky. Garen doesn't have to build situationally like every other champ in the game.

summoner 4 summoner 12 All AD team = item 1028 item 1029 All AP team = item 1028 item 1033 Balanced team = item 1028 item 1029 item 1033

Regardless, if you're the villain, your death is inevitable.

Brockinroll1 votes

Guess you'll complain how Veigar can 1 shot then too with his ult? Garen's ult is not op

K541 votes

Again, not an issue because it's magic damage and won't do anything at all to a tank. When Veigar can 1 shot a full tank, you let me know.

My problem with Garen is that he can instant melt tanks with his true damage. Has nothing to do with the high damage itself. I have 0 problems handling a Veigar. I have 0 problems handling any of the champs the other guy listed. I have 0 problems dealing with Garen... until I'm the villain.

Doesn't matter how much AP Veigar has, there are items to counter it and he has to build for it.

Garen can go full tank, build 6 item 3070 or 6 item 1001 and destroy you with his ult. No other champ in the game is capable of that.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

And you assume he can only deal true damage to all enemies because......?

K541 votes

People really need to read the post before they comment. This is about him instantly melting tanks with true damage. Amumu Rammus Malphite Nasus Sion Darius and other FULL TANK champs that are instagibbed from the Fields of Justice by Garen when they become the villain.

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