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How to Buff AD Assassins without actually Buffing AD Assassins

Lord Boltrix·Nov 1, 2015·1 votes·349 views

Lower the base armor of squishy champions, so AD assassins can still do their job against them without us giving assassins some form of extra damage or bonus penetration so that it fucks with bruisers/tanks. I honestly don't care about ADC's being able to do sustained damage and lifesteal for days, and AP assassins will still be able to burst down an ADC so no need to deal with any sort of major MR nerfs. The AD assassins could use a bit of help, but they don't need to be able to just damage everyone.

So the meta returns to - in theory - what it should be.

ADC's will clean up the teamfights and proceed to siege objectives.

Mages will poke and burst down enemy champions and set up the initiation for the engage.

Assassins will try to take out high-priority targets who are squishy.

Tanks will try to pounce on an initiation and try to peel and cc down the team.

Bruisers will rampage, trying to take focus in a teamfight and do as much damage as they can in the meantime.

Supports will try to exercise their utility and turn the teamfight around for their team.

This is how it should be. Every member of the description should be able to perform to the expected level, and while the meta may shift to favor one role, in the end balance will always be achieved.

16 Comments

disregardableNov 1, 20151 votes

Squishies already get one shot.

._.

Lord BoltrixNov 1, 20151 votes

Squishies that build no defense period will get one shot against mages and assassins, and yes: building a bit of defense will not guarantee you will not be killed very quickly, but an assassin 1v1 theoretically should always be able to kill you because that is what they are designed for, and mages can beat you handily if you left them poke you before they bring their burst combo.

League is designed around a team comp, that is: you have clearly exploitable weaknesses, it is your job to minimize your vulnerabilities and have teammates to cover for whatever is left. You build a bit of armor or MR on a squishy to ensure you can survive long enough to contribute something, although you shouldn't be at the frontlines exposed to the enemy team's damage in any case.

Every champion and role has weaknesses and failings, that is why League is a team game, if you are having trouble being killed by assassins or mages, you should avoid being in a position where they can engage meaningfully. If a fed Zed comes down out of nowhere and kills you under tower without any sort of meaningful response, that is the failure of your team (including yourself) to ward effectively, retreat as able and generally... letting the Zed get fed. But any champion can feel broken and overpowered if they are fed, the level and item difference is that significant.

And yes, even brusiers and tanks can kill you if you let them get up to you and smack you in the face without being able to get them off you (and being unable to damage them back). As an ADC, your job is sustained dps, so in theory you should beat them if you have damage and penetration... and a means to keep them from you while you kite and damage them. As a squishy mage, you won't likely be able to burst a tank without being fed, so instead your priority should be other squishies who you CAN and SHOULD burst down. As a squishy support, generally you're not going to win a 1v1 period unless you're fed and/or have some damage and they are low and very squishy, your role is the utility you bring to small skirmishes and teamfights.

disregardableNov 1, 20152 votes

Okay. So you agree that assassins are one shotting squishies. So squishies do not need an armor nerf, especially with so much flat penetration in the game. ^^

Lord BoltrixNov 1, 20151 votes

My suggestion was theoretical conjecture on how to help AD assassins deal with squishies without giving them means to do the same to other champions who build armor. Unlike mages and AP assassins, who always enjoy the benefit of ranged characters having a flat MR of 30 and thus can always be counted to burst them as such, AD assassins need to build Armor penetration because said squishies do get Armor over the game. The changes to Last Whisper and introduction of it's upgrades have directly nerfed AD assassins with the focus on bonus armor, which isn't even very commonly built on squishies.

The only finished penetration of both base and bonus armor items now are Black Cleaver, Youmuu's Ghostblade, and Maw of Malmortius, all of which have very expensive recipes now, and the latter of which is only marginally effective for the burst of an AD champion with the removal of the bonus AD from missing health, and a passive that doesn't really help the ability-combo burst that is signature of AD assassins (if anything, I could only see it promoting assassins towards a toxic mix of high burst AND high sustained DPS while their cooldowns come back up if they combine such items with some of the new ADC items).

The Last Whisper changes were directed towards ADC's who - aside from some examples like Vayne - had difficulty with meaningful tankbusting which became prevalent throughout Season 5. However, creating another flat or even a base armor penetration item, with meaningful penetration like Last Whisper creates the issue of disparity between AD assassins and ADC's. Both benefit from such items, thereby creating even more imbalance if an item introduced to help one role ends up making another massively unhealthy for the sake of role strength.

Vistha KaiNov 1, 20151 votes

Mages will get triple nerfed with this preseason patch. As if the previous AP itemization change wasn't bad enough.

ModWulf HelhammerNov 1, 20151 votes

Gold generation has gone up, that's why the cost of some items has been increased

Vistha KaiNov 1, 20151 votes

So that explains item stat nerfs across the board? Please.

RalanrNov 1, 20151 votes

I know starting gold increased, but how else is gold generation increasing?

ModWulf HelhammerNov 1, 20151 votes

Passive gold income is up

RalanrNov 1, 20151 votes

Cool.

Lord BoltrixNov 1, 20151 votes

I didn't say that there should be no major benefit to AP, a change for AP may be warranted within the pre-season if mages are found to be very underwhelming between the item changes and removal of things like mana pots. Again, we need to wait and see, but ranged champions - the majority of squishies - have always had a set MR of thirty, which is league's way of saying: you can fight at range, but mages will always be able to burst you down, that is what they get if you don't hang at the backline like a good ADC.

I AM concerned with Mercurial Scimitar, though. Between Maw - which has always been a viable AD answer to mages - and the new appeal of MS due to the lifesteal added to it, I do wonder if something should be done.

I understand your worry, I do, but we need to wait and see, we can't circlejerk this kind of thing. And who knows, maybe Riot is planning a mage rework with newer options for items, they already gave supports something incredible is saving up an item slot with the new Sightstone upgrades, so we certainly can't say that Riot isn't willing to shake things up.

Vistha KaiNov 1, 20151 votes

Look at all the stuff AD items got. Phantom Dancer reduces damage received by 12%. Another AD item, decreases damage received by 20%. Nearly every AD item now gives lifesteal. AP itemization nerfed across the board.

I don't need to experience those changes to see the bullshit they are.

PS. 99.9% of PBE content isn't tentative and not a subject to change.

Lord BoltrixNov 1, 20151 votes

You have to understand that Riot brings changes like these over a steady period with intervals of major changes, you should know this by now with how buffs and nerfs already go in patches. In this patch, the marksman update came hand-in-hand with overall item changes, so it feels like mages are intentionally getting a shaft, when in reality it is just Riot trying to establish a new baseline. Squishy champions in general did not fare well in Season 5 because of the tank and brusier meta, with squishy champions that did thrive being the jungler mages and ADC's with the introduction of Runeglaive and Devourer respectively.

Remember all the complaints against Yasuo and Vayne? Both had ways to deal with tanky champions with armor, Yasuo conditionally with his ultimate's bonus armor penetration, and Vayne with her percent-max health true damage. They arose in direct correlation to the tank and brusier meta, and their overabundance in matches made things very stale and frustrating for people who got tired of seeing them. Riot IS going to buff mages, possibly tuning them up with a mage update, marksman just got their update first, in all likelihood because ADC's are easier to balance than mages considering the primary focus of ADC's is their auto-attack and it's components: the AD and the AS, with crit as a secondary focus.

Mages, on the other hand, have so much variety in how they function, and the focus of their power is not on their ability to siege, but on their ability to just HURT anything that doesn't have a shit-loaf of health and/or MR that isn't a tower. You saw the MR boost to Spirit Visage and Banshee's Veil, right? That isn't just coincidence, they made it so that tanks can buy more armor items, letting ADC's take the spotlight and focus, while Riot works behind the scenes on updating mages so that they become relevant again. Assassins will inevitably become relevant again because their job is to take out high-priority squishies (ADC, mages, certain supports like Sona, and even other assassins).

Likely, Riot will work on the mage update, with new items, and at the same time likely work at the same time on some MR items for AP users, considering with Phantom Dancer's damage reduction, and Maw of Malmortius as well as Mercurial Scimitar becoming more relevant, there is no need for AD items that come with MR, especially since such champions are going to be focusing on damage primarily anyways. Likely, if new MR items don't come out then, they will with new health and damage reduction items for tanks when the inevitable tank update comes up.

Vistha KaiNov 1, 20151 votes

So this is Karma move all over again? Nerf or forget until years later the time for rework comes?

You can't possibly say this is a good thing.

What you said could be true, if it wasn't for the fact AP items got nerfed at the same time. There is no "it feels like mages are intentionally getting a shaft". It's a fact.

Lord BoltrixNov 1, 20151 votes

You DO realize that AD and AP items over the board were either nerfed or buffed with Riot trying to make items more equal in terms of power, with the goal being choice of items? The change to gold income required that item prices change to accommodate, you do realize that not increasing the prices of AP items would make things imbalanced towards mages considering that gold will be easier to come by?

And while Sword of the Occult was removed, they let mages keep Mejai's Soulstealer and even gave it a cheaper, first-start item you could build into Mejai's. Apparently they don't have a problem with mages having an item that directly lets them snowball, and they even reworked the item so that, rather than losing half of all your progress, you lose two kills worth of Ability Power stacks for everyone one of your deaths.

Vistha KaiNov 1, 20151 votes

So reaching CDR cap with just one item is completely not over the board? On ADC? Whose items were tailored to not give CDR due to balance? Permanently tumbling Vayne is completely fine?

Now, now, back to the AP items. Let's see. AP items were nerfed across the board, save for few exceptions some time ago. Now they are getting nerfed in the exact same way again. So hard in fact some items' build paths make no sense anymore.

It's not like anybody was buying SotO or Mejai's anyway. It's not like anybody will buy Mejai's either.

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