@RIOR, @MEDDLER Can we talk about Kayle?

Provengreil··13 votes·1,836 views

in 4.2, She lost most of her initial burst, no mana ulti(why?), and a buff to W. In 4.11, we saw nerfs. Ulti cooldown, attack speed, and E damage ratio halved. In 4.13 we saw a slight lessening of these nerfs.in 4.14, you reverted the attack speed nerfs, sorta. There was a bug somewhere.

Well, when she lost so much off her damage over time, her early game became weak. So we took her jungle. Then you nerfed devour, which she really needs with all the attack speed she uses(did you really hate WW THAT MUCH?), then you nerfed all ranged jungle with monster resets. And now you're nerfing her go-to item, Nashor's tooth, we need the attack speed.

The only role Kayle can reasonable play that hasn't been nerfed as heavily is support, and....she's just not very good down there. She scales too hard with items to function with no gold, Her heal costs too much mana to sustain, she has no hard CC or counter engage, and none of her moves are the utility one point wonders a support wants (nami bubble, thresh's entire kit, morg shields, etc). With the exception of ulting your carry, Nami literally performs all of support Kayle's job better. Support kayle relies on early aggression to snowball the lane, because otherwise she becomes starved and useless.

However, I don't want this to be a straight buff. Most people consider kayle to be overbearing and unfair when powerful, so maybe you can avoid that by focusing on her supportive qualities.

Here's some dumb ideas to spark a discussion:

Step 1: change E to something small. Then make it her new passive.

Step 2: remove something big, like 50 or so % of the total damage from Q, then add an entanglement ability to it, making the enemy unable to use blinks or dashes while affected. Possibly make this a skill shot now.

Step 3. New E: Allows kayle to fly briefly, ignoring terrain and granting a large MS boost, but she is unable to use any other moves until she lands. If cast on an ally (very short range), she can pick up that ally and carry them with her for the duration. If she lands in terrain, she and her ally are shunted towards the closest normal ground.

35 Comments

canpan1411 votes

RIOR HAS NO TIME FOR YOUR SILLY POSTS.

Provengreil4 votes

Wow. must remember to coffee better before posting uneditable thread titles.

canpan142 votes

Haha it's all good. Was just having fun with it =)

Frius3 votes

made a shit ton of post about kayle ,no one fking cares,rip champion she is like urgot under 2% playrate 5 kills /game average = no dmg no burst ,even sona or ap nami do more damage with very good utility and cant talk about kayle vs annie ap ratios %

kayle burst died with 100 to 60% Q then her dps died with 40 to 25%

no burst no dps too weak reason no one several players play her

Provengreil1 votes

I know, that's why I'm trying to draw rioter attention to this post with the @'s.

Teridax683 votes

I think it was right of Rito to nerf Kayle 's overall explosive power, since having both heavy burst and reliable total damage immunity on the same kit made her problematic to deal with when she was strong, but I agree that she's been left in an unpleasant spot. Personally, I feel like her AD build should be buffed to be her new DPS playstyle, and her AP build should be shifted around to make her a dedicated support when going there. Kayle is really cool in that she heavily mixes damage and utility to form a really aggressive playstyle, as well as for being a hybrid with interesting quirks to her builds, and I think going either full AD or full AP should emphasize the focus on either damage or utility.

Provengreil1 votes

The problem with AD = Damage and AP = utility is simply that her moves do not have enemy/ally uses. They would need to go to her Q and W, and add an ally scaling with AP and an enemy scaling with AD. E is fine as is, since it has an AP scaling but also deal a normal attack so it has an "unlisted" AD scaling of 1.0 on the attack target. However...then you have to ask why you wouldn't just play lulu instead, who has exactly this type of kit division and an ult that will save your allies in virtually any situation kayle's would, while also packing a "GTFO MY ALLY" knockup.

I do like the idea you're going for, though.

Teridax681 votes

Utility doesn't have to be equally oriented towards allies and enemies. Even so, while Kayle is an aggressive champion overall, two of her spells can be used on allies (and are extremely powerful), and the other two naturally benefit allies by making Kayle's targets more vulnerable to damage. By contrast, Lulu is more oriented towards peeling and saving allies, and so doesn't offer those same offensive bonuses. Kayle's ultimate also offers hard protection (i.e. it becomes impossible to kill the target she's protecting for the next few seconds), which can often be far stronger than even Lulu's ult, which ultimately only offers soft protection (it can protect allies for longer, but can be overcome with extra damage).

A while back, I brainstormed a rework for Kayle on the LolWiki (which you can see here if you like), and the gist of it was to give AP ratios to Kayle's slow, buff the ratio on her W movement speed, reduce the AP-to-damage ratios on both her Q and E, and instead have AD empower both her splash damage and single-target damage on her E. The end result would be a Kayle who'd choose between either really strong DPS and waveclear with an AD build, or really strong CC and utility with an AP build.

Provengreil1 votes

I read your rework. The reason you want multi-application spells is to prevent the problems seen in old Sion, problems your build is looking at: Either you ignore half of your kit, or you're just kinda bad at everything. Having a mana per attack sounds good, though tear probably becomes a core item in any kayle build (not calling that a bad thing: imagine a champ that could meaningfully build 2 tears)

Teridax681 votes

I agree, but I also think Kayle's kit is pretty well-unified, both on live and in my rework. Her utility spells give her mobility, self-protection and sticking power when going for damage, and her damage steroid works with her passive to naturally provide additional utility. No matter what build Kayle would take, she would have a baseline amount of utility and DPS, except she'd also get to specialize in the strength of her contributions.

MadDoughnutz2 votes

Kayle's a bit problematic: Her kit has several things that all point towards different directions: E and passive encourage auto-attack carry builds, Q burst and heal encourage a more caster based approach, while her ult is a very supportive ability with a bazillion different uses. Slap hybrid scaling on top of all of that and you have a very weird champion to try and and balance, and even then there's an issue that if she's too strong, she's incredibly oppressive point-and-click with invisible power and if she's too weak, she does nothing besides be a walking ult.

Kayle is very much like her sister: Both were designed to fulfill a role with heavy supportive capabilites: Morgana is a mage with supportive CC and black shield, and Kayle is a... Fighter/Marksman/Mage hybrid with heals, slows and invulnerability.

Huh.... I wonder which sister got the short end of the stick.

Provengreil1 votes

You've got it on the nose, and she's currently in the state of your last phrase. Hence the refocus suggestions in my post.

an entangle ability that slows, but doesn't snare, yet disables an enemy's ability to just mobility out is unique, but by removing most of its damage it becomes a support ability. the "Flying" ability could be used to carry yourself and/or allies to or from an ongoing combat. W would probably need to lose the speed boost as it would feel strange with new E, but a new effect could be added. It would put emphasis on her AP support builds quite quickly. it'd be easy to take it in a different direction by replacing her W entirely, possibly with a version of the flying thing anyway. That leaves the defensive/supporty ult though, and it's such a central part of her identity that I'm not sure what you'd change about it.

Doctor Dyment2 votes

Now, I can see that you have noble intentions behind this. But the fact that you are asking for Kayle to receive ANY kind of power increase at all will get a good portion of the community to turn against you immediately.

Provengreil3 votes

I'm silver, a good portion of the community hates me already. In any case, I'm asking for Kayle not to just get a numbers buff but in fact a small rework, so the power she does have will be less binary and oppressive.

3TWarrior1 votes

step 4, realize that people can use her new E to troll like kalista's ult can and revert the changes to prevent kayle's apocalypse

Provengreil1 votes

Anivia Trundle Bard KayleKalista No retreat.

Widder881 votes

AD Kayle wasn't nerfed at all. Why do people play her as AP, and buy then items that amplify AA damage (Nashors Tooth, Runaans)? The majority of her damage comes from AAs, so why don't build Botrk, Hurrikan, Shiv, IE? You can get CDR from boots and runes. Her Q and E scales with AD too. Her heal scales only with AP, but AD Kayle has Lifesteal.

Provengreil1 votes

heavily reduced mobility and unable to spread that healing to allies for one.

Also, Nashor's tooth is currently a god-tier synergy with her. 20% CD puts E on like a 3 second CD, the attack speed to output more damage per E casting, effectively adds to E ratio, and gives a bit of AP as well.

not to mention, if you're doing something like AD toplane kayle.... You're an AD champ packing little defense, a lot of AD, a slow, a lot of attack speed, and an invulnerability ult. Why does this Tryndamere oh. He just does it better at that point.

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

heavily reduced mobility and unable to spread that healing to allies for one.

Also, Nashor's tooth is currently a god-tier synergy with her. 20% CD puts E on like a 3 second CD, the attack speed to output more damage per E casting, effectively adds to E ratio, and gives a bit of AP as well.

But AD Kayle does way more damage with Autoattacks. E has 25% AP ratio, with arcane blade and Nashors tooth it has an 45% AP ratio. Nashors Tooth plus Rabadons give 234 AP. 234*0,45+15 = 120.3. Botrk alone deals 105 damage against a target with 1000 current health per Autoattack. Later you can buy crit items. AD Kayle is an hypercarry with Kog'Maw/Vayne-like damage, that is AoE and with invulnerability for 3 seconds! Kayle need CDR, but why not use scaling CDR runes and CDR-boots?

not to mention, if you're doing something like AD toplane kayle.... You're an AD champ packing little defense, a lot of AD, a slow, a lot of attack speed, and an invulnerability ult. Why does this Tryndamere oh. He just does it better at that point.

Kayle has range. I played her in every position, but tbh I think Adc position is best for her. I don't main her, but I had some nice games with her.

Provengreil1 votes

You would never want a conditionally ranged ADC, you'd get abused in early lane for that hard. Even after all the nerfs, her problem isn't so much game or even the build, but how you got there. Seeing as she's no longer a lane bully and can't jungle safely, you absolutely need tooth because it puts you in the "good enough until later" category for attack speed, CDR, and AP. there isn't an equivalent item for AD Kayle. You can go 2 for 3 in BORK or Black cleaver, but not all 3.

Widder881 votes

Kog'Maws range is somewhat conditionally too. While Kayle E is active, she has very good trade potential because of the 20 bonus damage and the splash damage that can hit Adc and Support at once. But AD Kayle seems to be very unpopular, I just don't know why, because I tested AP (Nashors Tooth into AP), on hit (Nashors Tooth, Botrk, Wits End etc.) and AD (Botrk into AD), and AD worked best for me, because the early game was similar for me, while AD Kayle outscales AP and on hit because of crits. But maybe I play her wrong.

Provengreil1 votes

I don't think you do. I just think that AD kayle doesn't lend itself to something other ADCs dont do as well or better. One thing I've always liked about kayle is that you exclude hydra, then pick your items completely randomly and they'll still be useful for you: she has probably the most malleable build in the game. This thread was never about builds, it's about her kit though.

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

I just think that AD kayle doesn't lend itself to something other ADCs dont do as well or better.

She can protect herself with her ult. Kog'Maw for example has more range, a little bit more AA damage and more poke, but it is useless if an assassin kills him. Being invulnerable as Adc for 3 seconds counters many champions/teams/game plans.

TotalJerk1 votes

Kayle top royally shits on a large number champions up there. Q followed by 2-3 E AAs is hell to deal with and heal gives her sustain. If you're really good at timing your ults and heals, lots of mid/lategame duels are practically unloseable. She's a strong lane bully that transitions into a powerful splitpusher.

alfavhunter1 votes

Passive reworked -angelic reach When you deal damage to an enemy champion your auto attacks become ranged and gain bonus damage based on your ap (still has base values) for 3/4/5 seconds (1/11/16) This removes her hidden power of armor mr shred while giving her near perminant ranged auto uptime if she keeps attacking (she can Q to start it from range)

E heavens judgment (small aoe, same range as Q) Calls down a beam of light to a targeted location that deals ap damage and stuns all enemies inside for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds and if they are in the middle of the effect they take 20% more damage for the duration of the stun

This strengthens her roles by giving her more CC and burst damage but E would have a long CD and a delay to allow enemies to avoid it

Just ideas of course

Mob Psycho 1001 votes

{quoted}

Passive reworked -angelic reach When you deal damage to an enemy champion your auto attacks become ranged and gain bonus damage based on your ap (still has base values) for 3/4/5 seconds (1/11/16) This removes her hidden power of armor mr shred while giving her near perminant ranged auto uptime if she keeps attacking (she can Q to start it from range)

E heavens judgment (small aoe, same range as Q) Calls down a beam of light to a targeted location that deals ap damage and stuns all enemies inside for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds and if they are in the middle of the effect they take 20% more damage for the duration of the stun

This strengthens her roles by giving her more CC and burst damage but E would have a long CD and a delay to allow enemies to avoid it

Just ideas of course

I like the passive. Maybe make every auto attack give her increased range up to X amount. Maximum range increases at level 6/11/16

The E is basically a leona ult, so no bueno.

E has a new passive, gaining the shred of her Holy Fervor, of course it would scale with levels. E active would apply the splash damage, but not the range.

Provengreil1 votes

Q would have to trigger the passive as well. too many champs would easily nope out of your trade routine.

E, as stated, is already someone else's ultimate, so definitely not.

I like the nature of your passive suggestion though. keeps the whole buildup thing going and makes it easier to see. Might be too easy to work with in teamfights, but maybe that's a good thing?

doublelift fg1 votes

in s3 she lost her dps by losing her dmg amp on her Q

in then, her burst because for some reasons she can't have a burst or a dps

bring back the dps aka the dmg amp on her Q

Fadedpf1 votes

Honestly if her attack speed wasn't so gutted she would be a nice champion

GG Noob Team1 votes

Sooo, you want her to be a support? Sorry but its not her primary role However, riot should consider to giver her mres per lvl in the stats and passive rework, because it is useless. Passive should work 5% per hit and stole mres and arm as well. Fighter should be tanky, this would help her a lot.

Provengreil1 votes

No, I want Riot to pick a direction, because as stated elsewhere in the thread, her kit is pulling in several. Support is fine and it's where head was at the time, nothing more or less.

Solidair31 votes

To be honest, I play her with devourer often and I do damn well for myself. Though nashor's will be receiving a small nerf to its attack speed, with the increase in its AP, I don't think it's going to affect her in the jungle too much.

As for lane Kayle, she still has her place. She's still really good against Yasuo, and surprisingly decent against more utility focused mid laners like orianna and such.

I dunno, I am a bit worried, too, but I'd like to see it in action before I pass my judgment.

RottedApples1 votes

I agree that kayle has been nerfed completely into the ground. I'm not sure i like these changes.

The e change would make her ranged 100% of the time. I know she already wants to be like that but i think a better option would be to rework her so melee has it's uses or make her e do more but give it a longer cd so she has periods of weakness.

I would prefer to see her go back to the auto attack focused kayle we saw in the jungle. That was more fun for me personally, but honestly in her state i think you might be better off going some trolly top lane ad/tank build and calling it a day.

MaeggesMC1 votes

whats rior ?

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