If you're taking smite top....

Provengreil·Apr 18, 2015·57 votes·4,779 views

Please, please just start normally.

I have no issue with smite toplaners. Heck, a few days ago I won handily with smite/flash support nautilus. However, machete doesn't actually give you anything in lane: of your 475 starting gold, you blew 400 on no stats whatsoever, OF COURSE the enmy laner will be stronger than you, thus denying you farm, etc. Even if you're going to rush a blue/red smite cinderhulk, build bami's cinder first. It gives you stats with which to lane, and the base item costs the same. You get the same results later on, for less problems early.

Leave machete to just junglers.

30 Comments

ZmuecatApr 18, 20159 votes

What if I like wasting money?

BeatzBoyFTWApr 18, 20156 votes

No one upgrades their yellow trinket, but sure, "waste" money.

EvilRabbittApr 18, 20152 votes

I have to disagree. If support takes smite, they SHOULD take targon's first. I do it on Leona. I NEED that +25% hp and improved Sunfire to tank for real. I feel like a breeze trying to stop a waterfall without now. I only read the "Leave machete to just junglers." bit so forgive me if I missed the mark xD.

Stray KatApr 18, 201524 votes

He wasn't saying NEVER buy a machete. He was saying don't buy it to start the game, as it doesn't help a laner AT ALL. Buy it later on when you can afford an upgrade for it right away, and buy something that is actually of use to start the game.

EvilRabbittApr 18, 20154 votes

Oh! My bad. I still buy it once I hit 850. That way my smite for targons becomes smite for exhaust. >=D Who says you can't have the best of both worlds? Misread on my part.

flibitydooApr 18, 20154 votes

Smite's not even that good on support though... compare exhausts 40% damage reduction to Red smite's 20%.. and you can't use that damage reduction in an early game trade since you need to burn 800 gold to access it. The targeted, un-windwallable slow is nice, but it's range is pretty low and most supports have good engage/chase mechanics built into their kits anyways (and exhaust is a pretty nice slow too).

if you are going to take smite, take it for the added jungle security or the cost efficiency on Magus/Warrior enchant (Cinderhulk only becomes cost efficient when you have purchased 600 health in stats from OTHER items, aka you're better off running sunfire cape otherwise)

or in the case of this game,(http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1789021069/37926959?tab=builds&participant=6) if you want to try for some very cheesy early game kills as blitz (they didn't work, but it was pretty intimidating)

EvilRabbittApr 18, 20152 votes

It's different styles. I like it.

20% damage reduction, 60 second cooldown- or 15 if in teamfight, offers 25% extra hp, offers a cheap sunfire cape, allows true damage on ANYONE's auto attack as well as a base hit of true damage. That and easy dragon steals. >=D "Jungler died, lets go get Dragon. Huh? How'd it get stolen?"

=D That and my standard build easily breaks 600 hp. I do pure tank. Last time I ended with 5536 hp and around 200 resistances.

HawkefireApr 18, 20152 votes

THat 20% damage reduction only applies to damage aimed at YOU (in other words, it reduces incoming damage towards yourself by 20% but any damage towards your allies is unaffected)

EvilRabbittApr 18, 20151 votes

Things you learn. Still, Rammus support- and Dueleona.

DeliothApr 18, 20153 votes

Braum says hi.

All damage is directed at me- can't get through that wall, and who doesn't want braum hitting for tons of damage against one target- extra damage from his passive going off plus true damage too?

HawkefireApr 19, 20152 votes

Braum is the exception here mate, not the rule.

AthenasVendettaApr 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's different styles. I like it.

20% damage reduction, 60 second cooldown- or 15 if in teamfight, offers 25% extra hp, offers a cheap sunfire cape, allows true damage on ANYONE's auto attack as well as a base hit of true damage. That and easy dragon steals. >=D "Jungler died, lets go get Dragon. Huh? How'd it get stolen?"

You sacrificed your ability to save anyone. Granted you might be able to take the spot of the jungler... however +25% of Bonus health isn't really much you'll end up in about the same spot without it. I still would want exhaust being able to save my teammates from a zed or assassin is worth it.

Even if you did go skirmishers sabre you only reduce damage to yourself. so great you have a sabre playing.... now you're facing me in lane. you have summoner 11 summoner 4 item 3401 and I have my summoner 3 What if I am playing lulu? Well now you're screwed because you have to break a 180 point shield, then a 240 point shield, and your adc has to come out of exhuast.

What if I am Shen? Now you are no longer along the lines of hey I can kill their adc... Because at level 15-18 I can effectively shield people for well over 1300 points. So what you have true damage and skirmishers for everyone targeting you. I just taunted you entire team or three of them well for two seconds there is free damage, then I pop an exploding shield on shaco invis in your team.

I have made plays where shen ults into a fight where lets say your team or the other team is like "Easy kill" Poor veigar on my team is almost dead with 300-400 health left "But wait!, There's more" In comes shen 550 point shield suddenly veigar isn't dying... uh oh. Now, another 550 point shield appears he has killed one person ults the others. and then oops 3v1, turns into a 3v2 ending in a triple kill.

I'm sorry the only reason, only reason, I would ever take smite as a support is because we don't have a jungler.

ProvengreilApr 18, 20151 votes

I know this is late, but it was a rather specific situation. Their team had ahri, caitlyn, and nasus as their primary damage. Cait was only getting in range of summoner spells on a deep dive, against ahri I only need to slow her enough to get there and root her to get her blown up, and against nasus exhaust and chilling smite do just about the same, since he won't reach anyone until either has fallen off anyway. So I took smite to give us extra objective secured and nab a cinderhulk. Did start targons though.

ChaoticPineconeApr 19, 20151 votes

cinderhulk + face of the mountain is an extremely cost effective build for supports. you can then go frozen heart + locket and become another tank for only 12.5k gold for full build (includes boots and ruby sightstone).

and its not cost efficient when you purchase 600 heath in stats from other items. its cost efficient when you have 975 heath (600 + the 375 cinderhulk gives you). so for most tanks, it will be cost efficient at level 2 with no runes or masteries or relic shield. its cost efficient at level 1 if you take at least 9 in the defensive tree.

flibitydooApr 19, 20152 votes

...ithe % bonus health from cinderhulk doesn't scale off of base health.

I just tested it with Gnar in a customs. I picked smite, farmed mid lane for a while, built a Trailblzer-Cinderhulk

health bonus: (+84). you get 75 from the 300 that cinderhulk gives.

and that extra 9 hit points came out of that veteran scar mastery (the one that grants 36 bonus hp).

Conclusion: Cinderhulk gives you +25% hp off of your bonus hp. Your base health pool has no effect on it. Even when I was Mega Gnar (which raises Gnar's health pool), it's still (+84).

You have to buy health granting items (or have a lot of health granting masteries/runes/be Cho'gath/be Sion) to make Cinderhulk cost efficient.

Also weird fact: I learned that Gnar's E gives him attackspeed after casting it (because reasons). That seems really overloaded and unnecessary given his passive already gives him bonus attackspeed!

PartholonianApr 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have to disagree. If support takes smite, they SHOULD take targon's first. I do it on Leona. I NEED that +25% hp and improved Sunfire to tank for real. I feel like a breeze trying to stop a waterfall without now. I only read the "Leave machete to just junglers." bit so forgive me if I missed the mark xD.

First of all, the thread is about top, not support.

Second, the OP was saying not to take item 1039 first; if you're saying to take item 3302 then you're basically agreeing with him, just like a toplaner would be starting item 1054 item 1055 or maybe item 2041 depending on champion.

Of course, if you take summoner 11 , recommended items will assume that you're going jungle and advise you to take item 1039 first. But you should be smart enough to ignore that.

I don't see how a support could possibly value summoner 11 over one of summoner 4 summoner 3 though, even with how good item 3717 is right now.

Crystal CastlesApr 18, 20151 votes

Actually it is pretty common to start item 1028 instead of the options you listed to get to item 3751 and then eventually the jungle item of your choice.

SinlaireApr 18, 20151 votes

i've seen several blitzcrank support run item 3708 . CD, AP, and smite slow. he would pull, knockup, silence, and slow. kills were so easy and dragon/baron control was cake all match and he used smite chargs to take out cannon minions with item 3097 so the adc didnt really even have to worry about last hitting the cannon and focused on champs and minions.

UPfreelyApr 18, 20151 votes

but i wanna take a camp and get 15 bonus gold... hahaha ik its silly when they do that, they should maybe do cloth + flask after they do a camp

SaiannaApr 18, 20151 votes

summoner 11 + item 3401

You don't really have to by machete 1st. It doesn't help you in lane early, thats why no need to buy it.

MadraApr 18, 20151 votes

I remember taking Smite on Support Zyra back when Freezing Smite had the range of an Orbital Laser Strike and using it set up easy kills in the lane. I'm honestly surprised that it took this long for abusing smite to really get into the mainstream, but until Koreans start to do it, nobody out there is really trying to innovate themselves.

ChaoticPineconeApr 19, 20151 votes

its just that it wasnt cost efficient or combat efficient until the cinderhulk came in. juggernaut sucked.

LeeDarkApr 18, 20151 votes

This shouldn't even be up for discussion. If you're taking Smite for something other than jungle, then the jungle item that is the reason for it is too strong.

DeliothApr 19, 20152 votes

Not necessarily too strong, just gives stats that tanks like- If I'm building health, why not get 25% extra health? The smite gives extra utility/dueling power depending on how you build it, and cinderhulk only starts damaging when you go into combat- no more aggro'ing wolves as you just peacefully walk by them.

It's not too strong, because we're not seeing tanks that are straight-up unkillable, they're just relevant. This is healthy, as it makes the previous assassin meta less strong as the assassins have to actually pick a squishy target, not just kill everything indiscriminately.

LeeDarkApr 19, 20151 votes

Smite in a lane should not be intended design. I would bet very good money that with all the Smite top laners we're seeing now, Cinderhulk WILL be nerfed somehow. Remember what happened when Devourer saw Top Lane Warwick having success? Yeah, what makes you think Cinderhulk will be any different?

GixiaApr 19, 20152 votes

The difference is that Devourer Warwick was basically one shotting people with his ult, and considering his ult is just point and click, this was clearly not something that was allowed.

Riot's actually said they're fine with laners taking smite, so long as it doesn't become a situation where laners HAVE to take smite. If it's just an option they have, they said that's good. At least at the present moment, that is the situation. Smite is an option, and it's good on some champs, but it's not mandatory.

ChaoticPineconeApr 19, 20151 votes

its nowhere near as bad as the Crest of the Lizard Elder or Spectral Wraith.

and its not that the skirmishers is particularly strong. its just that the pros tend to play super conservatively (meaning they farm and farm and farm) - the added gold and cost efficiency of the jungle item allows them to get away with it. a TP/Smite top laner would get camped super hard in solo queue, where your support/jungler doesnt ward your lane for you. and lane bullies like pantheon/riven arent popular in the pros.

Mooing KevApr 18, 20151 votes

I think getting dorans blade doing double golems going back buy 3 pots and a ward is best. Then work towards the cinder buying the machete component last.