Anyone else think the upcoming Viktor "nerf" isn't very "nerfy"?

Limitanei·Aug 13, 2015·5 votes·4,528 views

Current Viktor:

gives +500 flat mana and 168 AP (+60 flat AP and +6 per level) at level 18.

"Nerfed" Viktor: (http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/08/85-pbe-update.html )

gives +450 mana (+25 mana per level) and 180 AP (+10 AP per level) at level 18.

The only bad thing I see from the new is the removal of the flat +500 mana. The new +25 mana per level pretty much makes it so you have to actually start managing your mana until you become the late-game powerhouse you're meant to be, and by that point you have more AP from your Hex Core than you did before the "nerf".

Typically as Viktor you want to get as soon as possible to maximize your damage output, (usually you get it around level 8-11) and by that point you have at least +200 mana and +80 AP.

Thoughts?

27 Comments

Sakura MirageAug 14, 201514 votes

It's a significant nerf to his early game and mid game stages well keeping his ap scaling intact for his late game potential.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 14, 201510 votes

It definitely doesn't read as the biggest nerf we've ever proposed for a champion, but nerfs target at early/mid game don't usually need to be as large to impact the champion's overall performance since a weaker early game will result in less gold/exp coming into the late game.

I imagine the point of these changes is to make him work a little harder for his late game, not necessarily remove him from the meta or anything.

BijornAug 14, 20154 votes

Early and Mid are going to be a lot harder for Viktor players. He will still be strong late game (he is supposed to) but instead of being strong all game it will be when he should be.

ZhuganAug 14, 20153 votes

It creates a situation on Viktor where he loses out on statistical superiority while just building up his hex core early in the game. Which creates an actual trade off early instead of just letting a hex core rush be the best for his abilities and his stats.

Now its a choice between the early ability bonuses from the hex core and the early stat bonuses from an item.

PartholonianAug 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Typically as Viktor you want to get as soon as possible to maximize your damage output, (usually you get it around level 8-11) and by that point you have at least +200 mana and +80 AP.

At level 8, the live item has 108 AP, the nerfed one 80, a loss of about 30, somewhere between an amp tome and a blasting wand; or about 600 gold worth of AP. At level 11, the live item has 126 AP, the nerfed one 110, now the loss is less than an amp tome, but still in the 300-400 gold equivalent range.

AP breaks even at level 15 and can eventually get 12 AP more than live. By that time, of course, you'll have at least several hundred AP.

That's not counting the mana, which never completely breaks even and is nerfed approximately in half if you get it at level 10.

Razgriz990Aug 14, 20152 votes

WHO RUSHES HEX CORE????? It's not really that great imo.

CatastropAug 14, 20152 votes

I rush the first two to get my Q and E upgraded by levels 7-10. I don't get implosion until teamfights start.

Razgriz990Aug 14, 20152 votes

What I do... I have scaling cdr blues and scaling cdr quints. I get first upgrade then buy a tear. I either finish arch or I get 2nd depending on my matchup, but I always finish those 2 with boots somewhere. No need for cdr items and I get over 1k ap with elixer and still have my boots :D

Jungle Lux GodAug 14, 20152 votes

Rushing the Perfect Hex Core is pretty bad due to the level requirements.

Getting MKI or MKII, on the other hand, are pretty good to get early if you want the early upgrades, especially the Death Ray upgrade.

Razgriz990Aug 14, 20151 votes

^^^^ I just hope this "nerf" doesn't make you absolutely HAVE to fully upgrade your hex core.

Jungle Lux GodAug 15, 20151 votes

I don't think Perfect Hex Core will be a requirement after these changes because they emphasize the stats per level over the raw stats.

If you get to level 18, then yes, PHC would probably be a really good buy that you would have to get, but then again it's kind of a no-brainer to get it then on live.

TrebbiAug 14, 20152 votes

Rushing the Hex core wasn't really what you should have done anyway, atleast not pre AP changes.

However getting E upgrade is pretty mandatory.

WaffletimewarpAug 14, 20151 votes

It seems to be a nerf like the nerf to Cho's passive a couple seasons back. He gets to keep his full power, but he gets to be weaker early with a more gradual power curve throughout the game.

CreationFlawAug 14, 20151 votes

His mana costs are ridiculiusly high, so it balances him out well enough.

AtheosisXAug 14, 20151 votes

Seems like a pretty hefty nerf to his early and mid game to me...

CatastropAug 14, 20151 votes

It's actually quite decent of a nerf. His mana costs are high so this forces you to really manage how you're going to use your skills and he deals a lot less damage early and mid game. So now he's the late game champion he was meant to be and not an all round powerhouse.

ChaoticPineconeAug 14, 20151 votes

I never upgrade his hex core first. I find that the Gravity Field's pull and his Ults movespeed really isnt that great - a stun is a stun, and his ult's does most of its damage on impact, not as a DOT (since most people can outrun it even with the upgrade). I get 1 or 2 upgrades on his hexcore - 2 if im ahead and can use the Q to trade often, only the E if im doing poorly and need more AP to one-shot the wave.

Now, comparing his old hexcore to his new - the new one doesnt get stronger until the 3rd upgrade + level 15. Yes, its a lategame buff. However, its 1st and 2nd upgrade are weaker, in both AP and Mana. That means youre weaker for the first 25-30 minutes of the game, the portion of the game that Viktor currently shines.

Crowe StalkerAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I never upgrade his hex core first. I find that the Gravity Field's pull and his Ults movespeed really isnt that great - a stun is a stun, and his ult's does most of its damage on impact, not as a DOT (since most people can outrun it even with the upgrade).

If you are honestly saying the Gravity Field augment isn't worth getting, you aren't playing Viktor correctly or are picking him into compositions with no Area of Effect and therefore, no true Teamfighting potential. I can also tell you don't play Viktor enough because you want to max and augment Deathray first because you want to clear the wave immediately or improve your poke. The Speed boost is only good if you know the Jungler is camping.

You know what's awesome? Orianna 's Shockwave. It can force five people into an optimal position for an AoE Combo (and does great damage) Viktor's Gravity Field augment is literally a Mini Orianna Ultimate on like, a 15-12 second cooldown. Seriously, pair that with Malphite or Yasuo and your Gravity Field can and will win teamfights. In comparison, your Power Transfer augment just forgives some positioning mistakes.

This change to his kit was literally the best thing about his entire rework because it put his Teamfights on Steroids (even if the change to remove slow after stun made item 3116 less niche on him)

And Viktor isn't meant to be an Early-Game Champion. He was never meant to be an Early game Champion even Pre-Rework. You don't pick Viktor to dumpster a lane, you pick him because he has very powerful teamfights and strong poke with his Deathray and you pick him to scale hard.

ChaoticPineconeAug 14, 20151 votes

I do max and augment Deathray first. And the Q speed boost is great on Viktor, since it ensures his next autoattack. Most players dont let you stand there and Q-Auto you. If they see the Q coming, they run away - its hard to get the auto off without the necessary upgrade unless you run movespeed quints and 21-0-9 masteries.

Now, why do i think Viktor is an early game champion? Base damages and ratios. WIth one upgraded Hex core on his E, he unlocks possibly the strongest, non-ult ability in the game - 500 +140% AP ratio. Thats HUGE - thats stronger than most champion's ults. However, he has relatively short range on his abilities aside from his E, he is immobile, he is squishy, and he has no real peel. Yes, his W can peel, but most assassins can kill him before getting stunned.

Now, for the reason why i dont get the W upgrade (and consequently, the ult upgrade) until later in the game - a stuns a stun. If an enemy is stunned within your W, does it matter if they move 200 units to the center? They are already stunned in a fairly small area. Also his gravity field has a 1.5 second delay on a 700 range ability. Ori ult is .75 with a 1225 leash range. Youre comparing two abilities, one which is practically twice as easy to hit - almost twice the range and hits twice as fast.

i think youre playing viktor wrong if you decide to get a perfect hex core as your first major purchase. I dont do it. The pros dont do it. I dont think you should do it. The main reason is damage. For 1000 gold to get the tier 3 upgrade, you get 20+1AP per level, along with 200 mana. Now, with a mana pool of 300 from 2 upgrades, you shouldnt need the extra 200 mana (especially if you start dorans). Lets say you fully upgrade your hex core at level 10 - a reasonable endeavor to gain 3000 gold. That means you get +30 AP at level 10 from your hex core. For less gold, you can get a Fiendish Codex for the same AP and 10% CDR. For less gold, you can get a Blasting Wand for +10 AP And for a little bit more gold, you can get a NLR. I agree - it improved his super lategame teamfighting. But it only improved after level 15 and after 3 upgrades. Look at some pros play viktor in solo queue.

Bjergsen - 22 minutes, no third upgrade. Bought Ludens and Void staff though.
Febivan - 35 minutes, upgraded 3x after Morello, Zhonyas, and Void.
Fox - 40 miuntes, upgraded 3x after Morello, Deathcap, and Void

Most of these guys upgraded 2x immediately, or bought only a Morello (or parts of a morello) before getting 2 upgrades. However, they dont finish the full 3x upgardes until they get 2-3 AP items first. Now, unless youre telling me you know more about Viktor than some of the people who play him on the LCS stage, youre absolutely wrong about Viktor.

Crowe StalkerAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Now, for the reason why i dont get the W upgrade (and consequently, the ult upgrade) until later in the game - a stuns a stun. If an enemy is stunned within your W, does it matter if they move 200 units to the center? They are already stunned in a fairly small area. Also his gravity field has a 1.5 second delay on a 700 range ability. Ori ult is .75 with a 1225 leash range. Youre comparing two abilities, one which is practically twice as easy to hit - almost twice the range and hits twice as fast.

Before his Rework, Viktor had a lot of Scaling power. That was how he was designed with his (crappy) passive back then, and that's how he'll be when this patch goes live. You want an easy Early game with some mobility? Get Ahri or Xerath . Viktor is designed to scale and this 'nerf' is going to have him play the way he was before the rework.

140% AP Scaling on Deathray? No, you really don't understand how Viktor works. Augmenting his Deathray causes an explosion, but if the laser hit the first time the explosion only hits for 40%. That's roughly 100% AP scaling (Technically 98% but who cares? We'll round up.) Short Range is for idiots who try to not use Smart Cast. Let me tell you a little tip I learned way back when: Keep Smartcast on, BUT HOLD THE GOD DAMN BUTTON. I see so many people who don't understand this, I see so many instruction videos and so many 'guides' but I seem to be literally the only Viktor player alive that knows you can aim a Vector with Smartcast on by holding down the button.

And for the love of god, stop thinking of Gravity Field as 'a Stun' or I'm going to start calling Power Transfer a Phage Proc because that's essentially what you are getting: A burst of movement speed. And yes, it does matter if you move all of your enemies into the center of your Gravity Field because that center allows your team to better aim their ultimates and abilities. I've seen cases where entire teams were pulled to the center and what was already bad positioning turned into an absolute perfect 5 man Deathray/Chaos Storm/Whatever the hell my allies were doing wombo combo and that can happen before you get full build. You are so focused on Trading Early on with your Power Transfer (What are you even doing with your Deathray if you think you need to use Power Transfer to trade?) that you miss Viktor's true testing grounds: Teamfights.

In Closing:

With Power Transfer Upgraded Yasuo : "I really wish I had a secondary Knock-up." Viktor : Incoherent whistling

With Gravity Field Upgraded Viktor : 3 Man Gravity Field Sejuani MonkeyKing Varus Morgana : LET'S GET READY TO WOMBOOOOOOO!

ChaoticPineconeAug 14, 20151 votes

Youre an angry little one.

I wondered if you were a viktor main or something. Stats prove otherwise. So unless you magically get better than the LCS/LCK/LPL pros at Viktor, I'm going to stick to their builds.

Razgriz990Aug 15, 20152 votes

His E not smartcasted like 98% of people suggest is simply a lack of physics comprehension.. I'd say I hit roughly 80%-90% of my E's while smartcasted. I tried going back once... it lasted about 4 mins into the game lol.

7ha7guy777Aug 14, 20151 votes

The new hex core is weird. You need to rush it since you no longer get the base values and the ap per level is lower up to a certain point. But you're discouraged from rushing it because it's no longer very effective until the later levels. I typically would go first upgrade (E) into deathcap followed by Q augment with boots somewhere in there then a void staff or rylai's depending on how i'm doing with the perfect hex core not being finished until at least level 15. I'm not really sure if i'll change my build after the nerfs. sitting on the E augment no longer gives significant enough ap to justify second item deathcap.