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Ashe in her current state in the Meta; How to Improve her...

Phoneixflare··3 votes·959 views

Ashe is an adc with a lot of potential. Global engage. Slows on auto attacks. Very good at kiting. However, she lacks a gap closer to get into position for a kill and lacks and other hard cc pre-6...someone like jinx has a strong, long range slow along side a zoning root. Also, jinx's Zap does significant damage to that target hit. Ashe however, does not have a strong damaging ability in volley. Her passive is, well, not good. A passive that forces you not to auto attack to benefit from it seems to be the opposite of what an adc should be doing...I suggest changing a few things to make her be in a bit of a better spot.

A) You can change the ratios on some of her abilities. Apply a increase in ad ratio to her volley, or allow her frost shot to apply extra damage in addition to slow. (It does cost mana after all...and the slow isnt fantastic early on. Extra damage means it's worth putting points into and allows for new builds...like possible essence reaver ashe? sounds fun to me.) Also, you could add an AD ratio to her ultimate since she is a primarily ad champion...make her scale into late game with all her damage that she will likely be building.

B) Give her more mobility. Change her hawkshot to something a bit more like a rolling shot that shoots straight in the direction she moves in. This should reflect her 'northern hunter with a bow' theme as well. This would allow for Ashe to get into position more reliably and have an escape mechanism, which she direly needs before six. She isn't a safe pick and is easily ganked and bullied in lane because she isn't lucian or caitlyn or tristana or even vayne. All of them have gap closers.

C) Make her abilities scale more on crit, since that is what her passive does. Allow for her volley to crit as well, allow for her ultimate to crit...seems to make sense to me. Why limit this champion if you chose that passive for her which should be central to her kit? Crit seems to be a good idea to build on this champion and allows for her to control more effectively in lane(I would fear a critvolley if I were an enemy adc to an ashe...or a crit ulti followed up with anything.) If not a 'critical strike' some bonus damage would be nice on her other abilities since her passive makes her laning really bad and boring to be honest. It isn't useful throughout the game like other adc's abilities...

Welp, I hope some Riot staff member will see my argument here and take some of my ideas and put them into place! ^_^

26 Comments

Trylobyte4 votes

The normal objective in any big fight is to pounce on the ADC and destroy them, but most ADCs have ways out of this:

Corki has Valkyrie Caitlyn has her net Draven has Stand Aside/Blood Rush (Weak, but there) Jinx has Flame Chompers (Weak) and, if she kills someone, her passive Lucian has dash-spam Quinn can Vault Sivir can go On the Hunt Tristana has Rocket Jump Vayne is Vayne.

That leaves Ashe KogMaw MissFortune Varus Twitch as being generally helpless when jumped on. But even then. Varus has better damage, more punishing abilities, and a more dangerous ult. MissFortune has a passive that won't help her once she is engaged but makes her harder to engage on. KogMaw melts everything late-game. Twitch can stealth.

Ashe was designed to be able to kite, but kiting is no longer a reliable thing with all the leaps, dashes, jumps, and long-range CC that presently exists in the game. She was built to fill a design role that no longer serves any purpose because mobility creep has rendered it impossible. Without that, she brings nothing to the table - Her stats are sub-par, her standard skills are weak (Q is outmoded thanks to red buff, W isn't anything special, E is a joke), and just about anyone in the jungle, even weak gankers, can successfully force a Flash or kill her in lane.

exiledFromBadmen1 votes

Vayne is Vayne.

That was funny

Hoi Im Temmo3 votes

Sorry; but your'B'? NOOOOOO.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WE NEED TO BE FIXING THE MOBILITY META, NOT ADDING TO IT.

Rest of it was pretty good though.

Phoneixflare1 votes

TBH, I don't see what's wrong with the mobility meta. The mobility aspect of this game allows for fast paced action where clutch escapes and dives can single handedly win games. I mean being mobile SHOULD be important in this game. It's filled with skillshots and massive area of effect spells where if you aren't in position you are going to die and that's one of the best parts of this game: You have to play smart to win(in most cases). So, having a champion without mobility should have a strong aspect of their kit or strong base stats to compensate, such as Kog'Maw having a strong late game(one of the best by far) alongside his huge range and damage on his ultimate once he hits 6 in lane.

I mean playing a champion without a gapcloser is almost a risk in and of itself, since many people play aggressive, dive heavy champions and team compositions because they know that if they can get that one bit of cc on you they can chain everything together to get a kill and an objective.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

That is EXACTLY my point - the mobility meta has 3 basic problems (there are a few others, but these are the big ones)

  1. As you said, a large part of the game is being in position, and playing smart - high mobility champs destroy this aspect of play. Examples: (before the nerf) Why play safe with Lucian? If anything happens he can dash away. Why do I care about tower shots? I can run in, burst you, and dash away. An overly high mobility champ doesn't as much play the against the opponent, as he does the game. Second example: Lulu - there is no combat in lane. She range basic attacks, slows you, and can run faster than almost everyone else (ok, for a duration - but its more than enough) - for lulu, its not about outsmarting, play safe, trading properly, farming well....its about "they moved towards me, slow and run" "they backed off, start attacking them, or minions" "someone ganked, slow and move buff to tower" - some lulu's dont even bother warding, because they can getaway anyway. Thats not an increase in the need for skill - its a champion who is far to forgiving of mistakes and bad play.

  2. You mentioned the importance of being mobile - the second problem is that there are so many champion who ARE NOT already. So long as high mobility auto beats low mobility, picking these old champs is as good as intentionally feeding. Examples: If I play, say, Annie vs Kassadin, the Annie cannot getaway, cannot be properly positioned at any time, and etc. They ONLY way she can compete is to out damage Kassadin so hard as to burst him in 2 seconds (so that he doesnt just run) - so now, we have a toxic game style of either combo someone with no chance at counter play, or play a champion who is mobile.

  3. Which brings me to the last problem - negative experience. The ONLY way to kill a hihg mobile champ is a: massive, Examples: You play Gragas Mid vs me as Veigar. You can always poke from afar, body slam away, etc. etc. So my ONLY option is to dodge about, way behind the minion line, and farm. That is, until I get a DFG, and can go stun->W->Ult->Q. So this mid lane is now you playing a game of throw the barrel and run away, and me play Ranged Nasus Farm Simulator 2000.

There is no strategy at that point. Its simple cause and effect.

So, there are a few solutions:

we keep the high mobility meta, never release a low mobility champ again, and rework every champion to fit the meta (or just consider them bad, and watch as they go Urgot on us).

We have a meta of High mobility vs Instagib and people on both sides calling op, broken, and flaming riot.

We get rid of the mobility, and make people learn to play strategically. (Oh the horror?)

I know that in these solutions, I am biased - but seriously, what other option are there?

Edit: also - I'm not against champions having mobility either - but the number of them, and the oppressiveness of it is stifling. When Riot adds it to a champion, it should take up more of their over all power than it currently does.

Phoneixflare1 votes

Right, but in terms of what a marksman champion needs...Ashe is in dire need of something to compensate for her lack of gapcloser OR they could give her a gapcloser.

Mobility meta or not, this does not change Ashe's weakness overall.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

I'm not disagreeing that ashe is weak - but she is only weak BECAUSE OF THE MOBILITY META. The only thing really wrong with her is her passive is....bad.

Ashe is supposed to be a non-mobile champion who REDUCES the mobility of others to compensate. She would be strong, but (sorry to sound like a broken record here) mobility meta makes her cc basically useless. She can only slow if you are in range, so a champion who can easily disengage will automatically ignore her.

The options for buffing her are: increase her CC to a more powerful state (which will make her frustrating to play against with VERY little counter play)

Giver her mobility (which only serves to make other champions who are having the same problem even MORE outdated in this meta.)

Or up her damages to allow her to burst people down before they have time to escape (making her frustrating to play against with very little counter play.)

In the current meta, there is no buff that will actually make gameplay better (more fun) other than either make her a part of the meta or remove the prevalence of the meta. Thats what my last post was about - this isnt a situation with a good answer, and te reason for it is the mobility meta.

Phoneixflare1 votes

Oh? Ashe wasn't weak before the mobility meta? I disagree with that strongly. Ashe has almost always been weaker than other adc picks. Something must be done because playing Ashe is incredibly boring and not even useful for the team.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

I had plenty of pretty good ashe adc's who could play VERY well into the late - during season 3. Season 4 forward, none. (some of that could be attributed to going from silver to bronze, but still - not even in normals.)

Phoneixflare1 votes

I suppose anything is possible. Someone can be played very well, but that doesnt mean that the champion isnt a weak pick by comparison to other adcs...which is what we are talking about here right? D:

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

Valid point.

The mobility meta is still frustrating though >:|

Phoneixflare1 votes

also, keep in mind the changes I stated weren't all reliant on giving her mobility.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

A fair point, but the initial post on this section was specifically a response to the b option. I just don't want a weak champion to upgraded by giving mobility, when it was to much mobility that (at least in my opinion) caused the real problem here. It just seems backwards.

Phoneixflare1 votes

right, but that was only one option. and the mobility given wouldn't even have to be that huge. Less than relentless pursuit and longer than tumble. that's not massive and put it on a huge cooldown. just asking for Ashe to actually have some functionality in her kit with everything else in her kit.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

No - but anything close to altering old champs so to be more viable in the mobility meta is to condone and accept it.

PokladnicaZla3 votes

The only thing i would change about her is her Passive (agree with u on that point),RIOT could add crit-charging when autoattacking

and for the love of god make her ulty go faster while traveling

Eapenator3 votes

If there was one champion that ruined game balance the most in League of Legends, it has to be Ashe.

Ashe was considered a God back in the day when giving mobility to champions was very, very, very sparse. From the beginning of her inception, as had always been a go to adc because the other adc's at the time did not have the amount of kting potential she did, and gap closers/blinks and dashes were very undervalued because most adc were imobile.

Due to the existence of Ashe, Riot created much more mobile top laners (see Irelia) , and in response, had to design more mobile ADC, and now we see the clusterfuck of mobility in League today.

Sadly, Ashe's Kit is good, incredibly good, but 3 years of designing the game according to that first response they made to Ashe has made Ashe's kit really weak when you compare it to the meta. So really, riot needs to change other champions, because they balanced Ashe a long time ago for her position in the game, but her position in the game is one that is countered by almost every champion released in the last 3 years, and that is something that cannot be fixed by changing her kit.

Phoneixflare1 votes

Or, they could change Ashe, instead of trying to change the entire meta because that takes a lot more time and energy and consideration of affecting the game's future as a whole than simply altering ONE aspect of Ashe. I wouldn't go as far as too say her kit is 'incredibly good' in terms of what role she is supposed to play and what she can do with her kit to fulfill that role. She is a marksman at her core, correct? How does Ashe fair against other champions who fulfill the same role? Why play Ashe when there are other marksman champions that are infinitely better and safer and more reliable. Ashe's range is subpar, her damaging ability(volley) isnt a massive range and you can dodge it between the arrows. There are actually a lot of things wrong with Ashe's kit. Mobility regardless of how you put it is an INCREDIBLY important thing on any champion, but especially marksman champions. If they are getting blown up without flash...they are dead so they are forced to fight and Ashe's base movespeed isnt exactly high. . . Thus, Ashe desperately needs some form of defensive tool other than hawkshot because the cooldown is both too long and the benefit is not enough for her to even use it frequently due to the mana cost.

Phoneixflare1 votes

also, to name a few that ruined game balance, Irelia, Leblanc, Master Yi(AP), Kassadin(still a problem really), Ahri, Olaf...there are so many champions that I believe have affected the game balance in so many more ways than Ashe.

ArmySquirrel2 votes

Ruined balance yeah, but that's not what he's saying. What he's saying is that Ashe wasn't changed for the game, the game was changed for her, and was shaped around her existing in the game. It's a different balance philosophy was used where balance was handled not by buffs and nerfs to suspect units, but through the introduction of new units designed to offer counterplay to what's currently overpowered.

Cavedog actually subscribed to this philosophy for Total Annihilation kinda. When massed aircraft was kinda OP because they could ignore unit collision, letting them bunch up and focus fire like crazy, they introduced Flak Cannons which did TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE THINGS to bunched up aircraft.

Dunno if this happened with Ashe, but I see what he's getting at.

Eapenator1 votes

Yea but none of those champions created a whole new role in order to counter them, the fighter role. The poor inception of this role is still one of riots biggest regrets, and if they had the balance design they inputted with champions in this day and age, we wouldn't have such a bad mobility meta, which many summoners lament. All the champions you stated were abuse cases, and riot solved their issues (or still solving in the case of kassidin) by properly balancing them (or leaving them in a weakened state (olaf, leblanc) until they can deal with them properly).

Riot lacked the foresight they have now to balance Ashe, instead of creating fighters to counter her. If they approached her differently, we have seen a different league today. Now however, she occupies a niche that no other adc currently fills, and riot wants to preserve that, preserve that.

Those thoughts aside, Ashe definitely needs something to make her more appealing, as Riot seems to place alot of her power budget on her slows. Currently, with so many champions having access to slows in the game, I think that they should re evaluate her power budget and give her something more. I always welcome new mechanics they can add to any outdated champion. That being said, I think riot will still say that ashe still satisfies a niche pick that can be extremely strong ( and to be fair, ashe/zyra from S3 came out of no where and was really effective when used properly) so you should not expect too much.

Some of the changes that you listed would be incredibly over powered, but I think what would be best for ashe would be to add something other than mobility which would make her like every other marksman. Riot has been recently coming out with awesome mechanics for their new champions, so I could definitely see something more intriguing and fun for her in future other than mobility should they decide to change her.

Phoneixflare1 votes

Interesting points and I agree with some of what you said, but if Ashe was such a huge 'game changer' then why has she fallen off so quickly? It's not possible to JUST be the meta because other champions without mobility are a huge success in her same role(See Kog'Maw) So, If she was such a huge effect then she would still be at least somewhat viable, which she isn't. At all. I don't remember the last time Ashe was even changed in some way. What was it like V4.4 or something? I dont even know. -_-

Eapenator1 votes

Well, Like I said before, most of her power budget is locked up in her CC, unlike kog mow, who has a large amount of power access that is translated into damage and nothing else. Theoretically, we could imply that Ashe has a high power budget due to the fact that none of it is automatically locked up in mobility. (this is my interpretation of game design, its probably wrong, but I like to think of it this way and its also very simplified)

So we could take it possibly 2 ways from here (3 ways if we count giving her additional mobility, but Riot would probably never opt for that)

  1. Weaken her CC, and instead distribute it as power. In your case, lets take your example of utilizing crit in her kit in some form and assume it can be balanced (something interesting at least opposed to an increase in damage ratios), and weaken her cc (ultimate not global/reduce stun/slow does't apply on volley, etc) We have a hyper carry with long range and ok peel. The problem with this design is that there are already 3 champions within that space, (kog maw with e self peel, Jinx with slow and chomps) I doubt Riot will ever turn Ashe into an actual hyper carry due to how saturated the design space is already.

  2. Redistribute the CC that Ashe has into something meaningful at different times, while being weak in other. This is something that I could see Riot definitely doing. Instead of ashe having her self kite balanced around her having it 24/7 (outside her ultimate, which is up often enough any ways), they could try and give really strong slows and give her certain periods where she can use it and certain times where she won't be able to (cool downs, stack mechanics, etc etc)

I wouldn't mind some nice ashe changes if they were well thought out and worked in practice :)

GuiltyGecko2 votes

Ashe just needs an auto attack with shorter wind-up and/or animation. It's hard to kite with her current iteration. Once she has that, she'll be in a much better spot.

Phoneixflare1 votes

that's not solving the root of her problem which is that her kit does not function together cohesively in terms of theme and functionality. What does hawkshot offer to her kit? Vision? buy a pink ward and you have PERMANENT vision in that area until someone kills that pink ward, to which you can buy another one in response. What does her frost shot offer while not actively draining mana on hit? Nothing but a slow that isnt powerful enough early game to make an effect and is actually too draining in terms of mana late game when she needs it to ulti or volley. Kiting is not an effective strategy for being a successful marksman if that is the ONLY thing you are capable of doing. Ashe's base stat values and passive alongside her e make it hard for her kit to work together to accomplish, well, anything effective. Picking Ashe is about as smart as picking AP talon at this point because she has ONE scaling ability off of AD, a slow(see red buff), a temporary vision granter which grants additional gold per kill(which isnt really helpful early on when you need damage or mobility to stop hard dives on Ashe, especially when her flash is down)

So what is solving her auto attack animation speed really going to solve?

Phoneixflare1 votes

Why is this even getting downvotes lol I just want suggestions or productive discussion I'm not calling anyone stupid or anything...like c'mon

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