Nerfed=/=Gutted

LittleBlast·Nov 30, 2015·13 votes·797 views

Honestly people stop saying x was gutted by y nerf. Im going to use a hypothetical example, if someones q deals 10000 damage, on a 3 second CD, nerfing it by 9000 damage is not a gutting. Yes it nerfed them but they are still strong.

22 Comments

VasilisGreenNov 30, 201510 votes

Well, in that example, you just took away 90% of it's power so, it is a gutting...

ChaddyFantomeNov 30, 20152 votes

No, That isn't how that works. It isn't about how much power they lost. Its about how good the champion still is.

Very Hard EngageNov 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No, That isn't how that works. It isn't about how much power they lost. Its about how good the champion still is.

correct, and buffing a pile of crap enough still gives a piece of crap a higher win rate.

increasing the damage on wukongs clone damage for example, would be technically a hard buff, but would offer zero extra benefits, but if his win rate went from 52%, to 56% everyone would say "OP" even though it still wouldn't change his team fighting at all, secure kills, or force people off objectives, or anything of the sort. (it would give him faster clears, but only ever so slightly, and still need to auto to kill camps, at best it would save him 1 auto attack, or actually change nothing, (further increasing the AP ratio would still give him a higher win rate))

veigar was gutted, they inflated his win rate with buff after buff from 37%, to 47%, his original unaltered win rate. then the buffs stopped rolling in. now thanks to league of snowballs, his win rate is down to 45%. (much much lower if the game ends early)

his weaknesses were over exemplified, and now he can no longer protect himself or play make by himself. his farm was lessened thanks to higher CD, and forced to either push the wave in order to maximize hitting 2 targets, or he can suffer and miss some extra farm. they removed his in lane poke, as players can just stand behind 2 minions and veigar can never hit the enemy laner, forcing him to 100-0 or do nothing at all. (just take the enemies poke)

essentially they made it super easy to dive him and just crush his face in. so now hes forced to stay further back (mind you one of the buffs he gained was an extra 100 range on his stun, he usually had to flash to catch someone, or the enemy was out of position to begin with) that change gave current veigar more breathing room, but older veigar was much higher high risk/high reward, hit or miss type play. really had to be in there and doing something, putting yourself in everything range to do what it is you wanted to.

summary of buffs they had to give veigar to get him from 37% to 47% it took 4 straight patches of buffs

extra range + missle speed on Q extra damage + lower CD on Q (still 1 second up from original Q time, 4s(new) vs 3s(old) casting W started the drop time and decreased the CD, and full Q AP stacks on assists (this was the latest change that briefly put him over 51% (ish), but now 45%) increased E range by 100 units decreased E delay time from .75s to .5s decreased E CD by 4 seconds

^ if you did any of that for any other champion, just think about it.

all because someone, somewhere complained that a snowballing veigar was able to press R on them, and they died.

VasilisGreenDec 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, That isn't how that works. It isn't about how much power they lost. Its about how good the champion still is.

It depends on what the champion's power draws upon.... If a champion's power is in the strength of theabilities and the damage, taking away so much power is gutting. If a champion's power is in the mechanics or the utility, a damage number nerf isn't really serious. The point is to know whereeach champion has power and what to nerf in order to keep one champion viable. If a champion is very powerful in terms of mechanics and you mess with those mechanics then yes, you are gutting that partcular champion cough zed's ult delay cough....

ChaddyFantomeDec 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hamil Battar,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEyOLjoA,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-12-01T07:13:33.396+0000)

It depends on what the champion's power draws upon.... If a champion's power is in the strength of theabilities and the damage, taking away so much power is gutting. If a champion's power is in the mechanics or the utility, a damage number nerf isn't really serious. The point is to know whereeach champion has power and what to nerf in order to keep one champion viable. If a champion is very powerful in terms of mechanics and you mess with those mechanics then yes, you are gutting that partcular champion cough zed's ult delay cough....

no because iot is over tuned. That is why it is getting nerfed. it isn't a question of making it unviable. I mean cmon. I'm typing in english here.

VasilisGreenDec 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

no because iot is over tuned. That is why it is getting nerfed. it isn't a question of making it unviable. I mean cmon. I'm typing in english here.

Dude, i doubt that we even speak in the same terms....

ChaddyFantomeDec 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hamil Battar,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEyOLjoA,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-01T10:00:06.479+0000)

Dude, i doubt that we even speak in the same terms....

Can it be explained why this counts as an argument?

VasilisGreenDec 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Can it be explained why this counts as an argument?

read my comments and then read yours and compare them. Speaking of arguments, i am a bit more detailed on my views. As i said, wether a champion is overpowered or not, wether a nerf is just nerf or gutting, it depends on what you change on a particular champion. What i say is totaly different from what you say... for instance, take Zed and his kit. Zed's power is in mechanics more than in his damage. If you mess with his mechanics, you completely destroy him. That's why his delay on his ult was halfed a patch after it's implementation. Also, the newer nerf on WQ, it is also a mechanical nerf and they buffed him in the next patch in terms of damage to compensate. The buffs were not really needed. Messing with his mechanics is far worse than nerfing his damage. If you take a champion like xerath on the other hand, lowering his damage values would be hard since his power is all in his poke and damage, not in his mechanics. Knowing what to nerf on a champion is what will distinguish a simple nerf from a gut... Get it now?

SpoofghoulNov 30, 20154 votes

item 3070 Sion

Hemulen MagiNov 30, 20154 votes

When you take away someone's freelo and turn them into a balanced champion, it's a gutting.

Take Zed for example. Once upon a time, he was massively overtuned compared to most competing mid laners who had just gotten their mana sustain nerfed. Then he got some minor nerfs that increased his skill floor to match his skill cap. His popularity remained high, but Freelo abusers began to drop down to their correct mmr, dragging his winrate to around 40% for a while. "gutted"

But when a champ gets truly dumpstered, their popularity and winrate both hit rock bottom and don't recover until Riot replaces... err... reworks them. Urgot

SasogwaNov 30, 20153 votes

While the statement is true, the example is not really good at all. The example you gave was something grossly overpowered drastically nerfed to have relevant numbers.

LittleBlastNov 30, 20153 votes

I know but my point is that just because something has been nerfed doesnt mean that it is unplayable/unviable.

LiziLOLNov 30, 20152 votes

Nidalee lowest winrate alongside kahzix

she was top winrate before the gutting

LittleBlastNov 30, 20153 votes

R.I.P. Nidalee, i mained her for 3 seasons but now she is near unusable.

The Yetii RiderNov 30, 20153 votes

{quoted}

R.I.P. Nidalee, i mained her for 3 seasons but now she is near unusable.

So even you agree that the way Riot nerfs is gutting.

Look at Worlds. All season long we had a consistent meta. Then just two patches before World's Riot buffs Mordekaiser and he becomes 100% pick/ban with a staggering win rate.

This game is balanced on the edge of a knife. The champions' power does not become strong or weak based on their old numbers. It is based on how their new numbers stack up to their competitors. Gragas gets reworked and suddenly he does the job of every tank jungler better than them. Amumu, Sion and Malphite weren't gutted, Gragas just outclassed them. When you can only play one champion in a role you pick the best champion available. That's why nerfing a champion generally guts them. Because, until the juggernaut update, Riot only worked on outliers, not every member of the class. Now that they are doing that, we can see better balance.

ChaddyFantomeNov 30, 20151 votes

Someone doesn't know what sarcasm is.

SaiannaNov 30, 20151 votes

Has he felt sarcasm or not, this man speaks the truth.

LittleBlastNov 30, 20152 votes

With nidalee its more the AP items changes hurt her, and the strength of her counters that make her bad.

MordepoolDec 1, 20151 votes

Mordekaiser has the 1-5th lowest winrate now. Varies by day He was broken and modeled into botlane. That a drastic difference from being in the top 5 winrates a month ago. Was we gutted no

systematically nerfed yes But that's what you get when a new design doesn't improve on the original

Forcing OP BS is bad design Better balance my ass

Lil Lewd WitchNov 30, 20151 votes

item 3070 Irelia

YuGiHoNov 30, 20151 votes

1 nerf alone is fine but when a champ receives many nerfs then they are pretty much dead

LordKentravyonNov 30, 20151 votes

think its fair for many to be upset about many of the nerfs we see atm. You have many champions who quickly receive some form of nerf whenever they are strong, whereas others are always in the spotlight.

Where buffs are considered if the former group is relatively weakened they are left to rot until a major meta shift brings them back, whereas the later group is quickly buffed back up so they can compete.

Furthermore the former group will likely see numerous nerfs at once, often a mix of direct and indirect nerfs, normally this is more then is needed to adequately trim then down. Rather then a slow and careful approach they kind of just hit all over the place. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, and when ti doesn't well to bad for anyone who plays them. Meanwhile if the later group actually gets nerfs its very slowly and carefully done to ensure they are still in a fine spot afterwards. Just not too oppressive.

If this were a numerical scale of 1-10 consider 5 as the point of balance. Champions from group A with a rating of 6-7 are hit all over the place ending up anywhere from 3-5 and left there, While champions from group B are carefully taken down to 5-5.5 And if things nerfs are overdone and they hit 3-4 they are brought back to 5 asap.

Ya the ones who got the short end of the stick are most likely not gutted but they are still likely to be noticeably weaker then the metas current 5-6s.

Getting back on track I think most people are mad about the manner / quantity / favoritism involved in nerfs / buffs