Tip of the day: If your enemies outheal 50% of your damage....

Leaf on Bush·Jul 22, 2017·68 votes·3,277 views

.... a Grievous Wound item can increase your teams effective damage by 40%.

Please add this to the loading screens, I feel like it could improve match quality immensely.

57 Comments

HallbusterJul 22, 20174 votes

Vladimir No, don't tell them my weakness.

KnoyleJul 22, 20174 votes

Warwick Yeah, they should really keep quiet.

Leaf on BushJul 22, 20177 votes

No I want everyone to abuse the shit out of cheap GW, so riot can stop hiding behind win rate statistics, while they are actually super lazy when it comes to balancing heals. They never even bothered to change the 40%. Why is it always 40% without variation? GW on ignite is as strong as a 800 gold item. Meanwhile they keep tinkering with the tiny percentage on item 3047 .

sobi999Jul 23, 20171 votes

I main soraka too xD

Ariel the CruelJul 23, 20171 votes

Why is it always 40% without variation?

The goal is to reduce healing, not invalidate it. That's why it never goes up. And 40% is hard enough to see already, reducing the number would just cause a perception back-lash.

Zero DriveJul 23, 20171 votes

Ekko Pft, Snitches get stitches.

Jew StomperJul 22, 20173 votes

If I have to buy sightstone as support, you should have to buy executioner's against the Soraka.

R7 FactorJul 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If I have to buy sightstone as support, you should have to buy executioner's against the Soraka.

The support should just buy it tbh

Ariel the CruelJul 23, 20172 votes

Janna item 3123 We often do. Along with our other 8 "mandatory" items. (>_>)

Jew StomperJul 24, 20171 votes

Yep. If I have the extra cash on first back, either exe Janna or Bramble vest.

EndlessSorcererJul 23, 20173 votes

"Grievous Wounds is effectively true damage equal to 40% of your opponent's sustain."

Gone by NightJul 23, 20173 votes

Tip of the day: If your enemies outheal your damage...

... you need to get more damage.

Sire HippingtonJul 23, 20173 votes

Sorry, but math does not comply.

40% heal reduction vs 50% heal is not 40% increased damage.

Let's use an example with easy numbers. You deal 100 dps, your target has 1000hp, but it also is healed for 500 duering the fight. this means you need 15sec to take down the 1500hp. With GW, your target now heals only 300, so 1300hp which means you need 13sec, that's ~13.33% less time needed to kill. Now, in order to take down 1500hp within 13sec, you'd need ~115.4 dps, so in the end, that heal reduce equals an effective 15.4% increase in damage.

GW still is effective vs high healing, but 40% more effective damage is quite an over-exeggeration.

Ariel the CruelJul 23, 20171 votes

you'd need ~115.4 dps, so in the end, that heal reduce equals an effective 115.4% increase in damage.

Typo? ;p

Sire HippingtonJul 23, 20171 votes

oh, yes, it's obviously 15.4%

Report for WujuJul 22, 20172 votes

Are ennemies really supposed to outheal 50% of your dmg tho

Leaf on BushJul 22, 20175 votes

Occasionally even more than that, up to a full health bar and beyond and those are key situations that can have a huge a impact on the match. You see they don't need to do that consistently, it's not heal per second. Fights don't last that long anyway. Just the GW debuff alone can be many times more efficient than another damage item.

TheGoomyGamerJul 22, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Report for Wuju,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eydEpNEa,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-22T11:26:56.671+0000)

Are ennemies really supposed to outheal 50% of your dmg tho

Draven item 3812 TBH 50% is a bit of an understatement...

Imperial PandaaJul 22, 20172 votes

This is why suggesting an item can actually be good. Have on numerous occasions gone. "May I suggest an Executioner's Calling to deal with Raka heals?" People have even less of an excuse with the Bramble Vest item now. I think something needs to be altered for Mages though. AA reliant and tanks have a cheap answer but mages still have to spend a pretty penny.

Leaf on BushJul 22, 20178 votes

me: "Please build GW" team: "STFU", "/all report x9 "

Yes I have seen that before. A lot of players really just don't want to believe in the power of GW, but that doesn't stop them from asking for healers/selfheals to get nerfed or getting super salty when kills are denied. xD

I actually very much disagree with the existence of GW items and heals being as strong as they are. When you can get GW almost for free it creates this kind of binary scenario, either heals are OP or just straight useless, just depends on how stupid your opponents are, because it really doesn't take a lot of skill or knowledge to buy it.

Balancing heals around GW items is just impossible, unless you assume that heals have to be reduced by 40% but then you don't need those items, which are then mandatory anyway. You can just nerf all heals directly.

I believe the balance is somewhere in between undebuffed heals and heals reduced by 40%, it's just impossible to get there with the current items.

Imperial PandaaJul 22, 20171 votes

I can honestly say the worst response I got was the jungle saying, "Can't afford it." Then a moment later the adc saying. "Yup, my next item."

Ariel the CruelJul 23, 20171 votes

I actually very much disagree with the existence of GW items and heals being as strong as they are.

I'm not against GW, personally. But I'm not a fan of it's application methods. As long as GW is a reliable effect, heals have to be balanced around it as you say. A better system are regional or temporary effects such as MF ult and Varus E. Make GW into an active effect that can be played around, and you remove the need to balance around it (mostly).

nice tableJul 22, 201718 votes

the difference here is that the item mages have to spend a pretty penny on is already one of the best mage items while executioners and bramble are bad if the enemies don't relay on healing.

Imperial PandaaJul 22, 20171 votes

This is true, it is a staple in most builds. Bramble which is made into Thornmail may become more of a staple with it's changes. Executioner made into... Mortal Reminder (or is it Lord Dominiks?) Is bought with an armour pen item. Both are components that build into another item.

All I'm really getting at is would it be too big of a deal to create a mage item that has GW for 900 gold? Replace the... Fiendish Codex? (wish I was on computer to just show the item.) the purple book in the recipe with this mage item. It could even keep the GW effect from Morellonomicon to inflict at a percentage instead of just on spell hit.

The LexerJul 22, 20171 votes

Lost chapter already only builds into Morello. We could tack the GW on there and maybe remove something else. It's already a pretty strong item on its own. Maybe remove the mana? (Keep the passive but remove the flat amount)

junglerboy16Jul 22, 20171 votes

They could add grievous wounds to item 3802 and increase the cost by about 300 gold (maybe add 5 extra AP too) and then remove the extra item 1052 from item 3165 's recipe, adjust the final combine cost to remain the same (I think that would be up to 800 from 665).

Morello's stats remain unchanged, the build path isn't quite as easy, but you also gain much earlier access to a grievous wounds item on mages. Seems like a fair deal.

ThefrostyvikingJul 22, 20171 votes

Healing shouldn't be that much of an issue early anyway.

And negating healers that early on wouldn't be much fun for them anyway,

Being a little strong early isn't an issue-

junglerboy16Jul 23, 20171 votes

Well the point of this sub-discussion was about how to give mages equitable access to grievous wounds. The other two types of champs (tanky and AD) have access to it very early/easily through cheap component items, meanwhile mages have to finish a 2900 gold item that only applies grievous wounds to targets below a certain health threshold.

I agree that overall grievous wounds shouldn't really be necessary early on many champs, which it isn't, but it also shouldn't be tacked onto a core mage item either. The idea is to find a way to make it more accessible if you need a reactionary item, similar to how Executioners and Bramble vest are cheap investments to counter a team that is out-healing your damage.

Personally I think Morellonomicon is actually too strong on its own to have the grievous wounds effect, and that effect should be turned into its own niche mage item with a more consistent application.

ThefrostyvikingJul 23, 20171 votes

It's available earlier for others because they have to deal with it more.

Only potential midlaner i know that heals a ton is vlad, and he doesn't heal that much early anyway.

It's a case of it not being needed thus not existing, and mages tend to posses burst or rapid DPS which makes it fairly easy to make morello work on their opponents.

And burst mages aren't supposed to kill tanks like mundo either, and since i can't think of any other that just heals themselves shamelessly while maintaining high health then it's all good^^

I Main SwainJul 22, 20171 votes

also its already at the point where grievous wounds is pretty much a must have in any given game just because of the items its on, you'll almost always have 1-3 enemies with it. cant play healing based champs anywhere near as well.

Blackstone01Jul 22, 20173 votes

To also be fair you need to bring somebody pretty low for the GW to kick in. Plus the item is good because all other options were nerfed into the ground.

Raven RedeemedJul 22, 20173 votes

But the GW last so long that you can't fall back during a teamfight to wait it out like the other items. True the other AP items are not in a great spot, but I'd say Morello is too good itself. Really good trifecta of stats on top of GW at a good price with good components.

Pierce The VealJul 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eydEpNEa,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-07-22T16:15:49.849+0000)

the difference here is that the item mages have to spend a pretty penny on is already one of the best mage items while executioners and bramble are bad if the enemies don't relay on healing.

After facing a kennen who rushed executioner's calling into my vladimir I would have to disagree.

nice tableJul 23, 20171 votes

he must of not been very bright then

Pierce The VealJul 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eydEpNEa,comment-id=0001000100030000,timestamp=2017-07-23T16:29:41.115+0000)

he must of not been very bright then

What was he supposed to buy, morellonomican? Think before you talk.

nice tableJul 24, 20171 votes

if you actually think the correct way to play against a vlad as kennen is to rush executioners you must not be very bright either.

Pierce The VealJul 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eydEpNEa,comment-id=000100010003000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-24T11:20:09.880+0000)

if you actually think the correct way to play against a vlad as kennen is to rush executioners you must not be very bright either.

He was playing utility kennen. With a rylais, adaptive helm, executioner's, etc.

Tbh idk wtf he was doing but it was annoying af and I couldn't really hurt him as vlad.

Still won the game though.

But AD kennen is a legit thing. If you think it isn't, explain away the pro scene, please?

nice tableJul 24, 20171 votes

ad kennen is a legit thing, well not as much anymore with the recent nerfs to it but some people still play it. the thing with executioners is that kennen doesn't have kill pressure on vlad with it and vlad doesn't have kill pressure on kennen if he doesn't have it. sure it makes your 1v1s slightly better but its not worth it to rush it just to be slightly annoying.

nothing wrong with building executioners into vlad once the enemy adc and what not start having some lifesteal but rushing it is just ... not optimal.

Pierce The VealJul 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eydEpNEa,comment-id=00010001000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-24T15:45:47.890+0000)

ad kennen is a legit thing, well not as much anymore with the recent nerfs to it but some people still play it. the thing with executioners is that kennen doesn't have kill pressure on vlad with it and vlad doesn't have kill pressure on kennen if he doesn't have it. sure it makes your 1v1s slightly better but its not worth it to rush it just to be slightly annoying.

nothing wrong with building executioners into vlad once the enemy adc and what not start having some lifesteal but rushing it is just ... not optimal.

Oh yeah definitely.

When I mean rush, I mean more like we dueled back and forth to around 100 cs and came back with items.

SeekêrJul 22, 20172 votes

Wouldn't it be like 25%

JoseraphJul 22, 20172 votes

"Hey team, please build Exe's/Morello, Bramble won't do much against Vladimir and Mundo"

All: "Shut up noob no one plays Jax top why not pick insert boring tank here such a troll pick 13x report"

GubaguyJul 22, 20171 votes

I recently faced off agaisnt a yas who was outhealing my teams damage... so i bought a thornmail... He was still abel to outheal us 1v3 and be nearly untouchable becuae of his kit.

MLDzXnRRRJul 23, 20171 votes

No space in the inventory, if it doesn't build into a real item (Enemy team has no armor - Vayne, Annie, Kayne, Yasuo, Soraka ). Played against this yesterday. We barely won. Kayne with Hydra, Visage, Death's Dance and Soraka was unkillable in teamfights and we could kill him only when he was alone and had to be focused by 2-3 people. In teamfights he alone could take at least 2 people and heal to full from almost dead with his ult. Also, Vayne top vs Gp is the most cancerous thing in the game. You can farm only when your jg has ganked or killed her. At some point she had triple my cs and was several levels ahead, so I had to gank the other lanes, because I couldn't go anywhere near her without wasting flash.

Leaf on BushJul 23, 20171 votes

Space is not an argument considering that a lot of games end before you reach full build. Why do you always think in full builds? And you don't have to upgrade it, if you don't need armor penetration....obviously.

You would rather get stomped for the sake of not leaving your universal build path? In solo queue its even worse, you can't count on anyone ever buying that shit, so you just do it yourself to have a chance to win.

Ariel the CruelJul 23, 20171 votes

Janna item 3123 Happened too many times. It's a running joke at this point. (T_T)

morris1Jul 23, 20171 votes

I'm looking at your name and wondering why you'd give this away.

Ariel the CruelJul 23, 20171 votes

item 3174 item 3107 item 3222 item 3504 [windspeaker's] 150% healing reduced to 90%; with Grail's on-damage and censor's on-hit to make-up the difference. GW affects her less than you might think in the long run.

RainfallJul 23, 20171 votes

tip of the day:if your enemies outshield 50% of your damage,you might as well afk because there is nothing you can do

Skins ProjectJul 23, 20171 votes

Name.... Doesn't check out???

RobotOverlordDec 8, 20191 votes

I just played a game of ARAM, which i think has reduced healing? I had Aatrox outheal all my damage on Ahri+tower. I had Morello's and he was GW 100% of the fight. Healing is just fucking BS.