Had a bad game with Trist + Sona bot lane

AndurilWielder··2 votes·1,741 views

Not sure how to deal with this. As soon as I started trying to cs, she jumped on me, and went all in with Sona healing her and poking the whole time. I had a Veigar support, and when he threw down the cage, she stayed in the middle, so it was ineffective. She out traded me super hard at level 2, and then every single time I went to try and cs at all she'd always jump in after me, and win the trades, and continued CSing simultaneously. I could barely CS let alone trade.

The Sona heals and speed buffs kept her bouncing back and forth constantly, and was always AAing to push super hard. Garen tried to gank, died, Veigar supp tried to do...anything, died to her. She got a double kill, I died once in the first like 7 or 8 minutes, but her aggressiveness and ability to trade well...

I feel like this was probably a plat or diamond smurf, honestly. Anyone who came at her, regardless, she just didn't back down at all, and would out trade and damage anyone.

When I'm in that situation, what do I do? What are the proper measures? I tried to play safe, hang back, farm under tower, but then they 4 man dove the tower. X_x;

My common sense suggests that as a Lucian, I should out range her, and poke her from that distance, and if she jumps on to me and take minion damage, but she was so bursty, it didn't seem to matter. Now I'm just trying to find some good advice on something I can do in the future. Looking for constructive advice, please.

10 Comments

FOR JUSTICE3 votes

first, a disclaimer, know that i am only a silver player, so i may/may not spot everything that went wrong, but here's my 0.02 cents after watching the replay. (ony first 13 mins, because your question was generally based around the laning phase)

first, as laning started, i noticed you and your support were playing WAY too far from each other, i'm talking your on the river side/middle of the lane, and your support is jacking in the brush. to remedy this, simply play a tad closer to your support, because his general presence is a natural deterrent to your opponents trading. if hes too far to retaliate with you, ya damn sure they gonna take the trade because of a principle called "pressure" (tl;dr, if hes too far, hes not exerting any). next, i noticed your kiting isn't very good. don't just run strait backwards, try and string in some auto attacks to even out the trade. speaking of, when running, NEVER EVER EVER run in a strait line, when in danger of a skillshot like sonas ult, telegraph where they might aim it. predicting where they might shoot it helps a ton, escpecially because you moved in a strait line for so long, so you can move slightly to the left or right. next, i noticed veigar actually landed a few nice cages, with tristana backed into the corner of it. rather then help, sona slightly retreats. you could have punished that pretty hard, because tristana has to either fight back 1v2, or get stunned and take free damage.

circling back to pressure, pay attention to how your opponent is behaving. if you re watch the replay, notice how as the wave began crashing under your tower, tristana backed up to river, but stood in lane at ~full HP. this right here is your que to begin acting aggressively because this is a sign that she doesn't actually have any assistance nearby, so you can either punish her greed or deny her farm.

this one might seem a little nit-picky considering you don't have many, but ya gotta ward the river or at least tri brush BEFORE a large minion wave crashes into your tower, or else you're just dive bait.

after tristana took your tower, pay attention to what you did. the first thing you did when you got back, was begin slowly last hitting minions, aka, you froze the wave. remember, the point of a wave freeze is to force your opponent to overextend, while you farm safely. if there isnt anyone in lane, you shouldnt be freezing because all that does is mitigate how much gold your OPPONENTS lose. IMO what you should have done is shove it, becuase at that moment you should know they backed, and the enemy jungler was on your map fighting your toplaner, so you could have shoved it into their tower and began damaging it, or better yet rotated to another lane (though tristana and sona didnt do this for whatever reason)

granted this specific case was more luck-of-the-draw im afraid, because your support was actually pretty sub-par. support veigar can theoretically work off of just harass, but he was playing WAY too passively. the guy didnt even finish his ward upgrade, he wet strait to mana/damage items, nor was he warding very much to begin with. he also kinda took questionable trades tbh. but the tips i gave were aimed at what you could improve.

hope this helps man

Orreos3 votes

First thing I can tell you is that Lucian really doesn't out-range any ADC's. Sivir and Lucian are both tied for the title of lowest range ADC. That being said, Lucian's strength comes from weaving his abilities with his passive. If you've ever heard of the 'level 2 powerspike' meme, Lucian is the one who inspired it. When paired with a solid engage support, Lucian can throw out immense damage with a full level 2 E/AA+AA/Q/AA+AA combo and put the enemy laners on the back foot--if not get a kill. The unfortunate issue with that game is that Veigar A) is a bit of a cheesy pick support, and B) gets outranged by both Tristana and Sona (assuming the latter positions properly) ability wise. Understanding zone control is one of the most important aspects of any lane, especially bottom. The issue with Lucian/Veigar vs. Tristana/Sona is that Trist and Sona have the larger zoning potential, which is something you don't want in a lane that's so pressure reliant. Lucian pairs best with supports that can engage and get kills, and Sona is good at snowballing leads (especially with the AP build that she went for). What ended up happening that game was the higher risk/reward pick of Veigar support (and Lucian to some extent) fell behind and became a non-factor in the lane.

As for avoiding 4 man dives and ganks (something I'm all too familiar with as a bot lane main myself), the trick is to keep constant vision in the brushes just outside the lane. Avoid overextending/hard shoving the lane as well, because overextending with no vision is asking for the jungler or the mid laner to come gank you. Unless you know where the jungler and/or the mid laner are for certain, try to keep the wave somewhere near the middle of the lane.

A lot of what goes into laning in league is knowing matchups. Bot lane is one where matchups can be a bit more complicated, but generally knowing what each lane wants to do (farm, get kills, knock down turrets, etc.) and how they want to do it is what allows you to play into/against unfavorable lanes.

Hope this all helped! Good luck in the future!

Full Brain2 votes

Have a real support not a kill lane that requires the "support" to constantly take all of the farm to actually scale properly. Why would Lucian out ranging the character that has level scaling attack range and starts off with an attack range advantage be common sense?

Shallowillow1 votes

hi did you play solo ranked? did your team exceed one death a minute? did you skip your core build item for botrk? did you not politely get your team to effectively ward? did you not understand how the flow of battle will play out with viegar? did you not reach mid game ( intradependence/teamplay phase)? did you not poiltely take from jungle?

beyond knowing other builds which i do not, did you compensate instead of stupid stacks?

idk, ive never played lucian, but i do know league. is there something you can do b4 playing that would change all this? was your team arguing?

anyway its not 10 deaths so dont worry somuch, nor was it an hour+ match your team was mostly melee anyway.

gl goodday

meowwow71 votes

by any chance did the sona send a green projectile at you and you did little to no dmg to the trist?

saltran1 votes

Lucian is already broken, asking for buffs and even more, for range buffs is absolutely madness.

AndurilWielder2 votes

{quoted}

Lucian is already broken, asking for buffs and even more, for range buffs is absolutely madness.

Not asking for buffs, just what I can do to be better.

Vlada Cut1 votes

item 1054 and Second Wind exist for a reason...

Shallowillow1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgWCPmIy9tM ADC 101 - CSing -he advises planning/goodhabits/when in doubts instead of lost and araming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfmm40Ow-T8 Results from 10 Hours of Last Hitting (CSing) Practice | League of Legends

  • he uses lucian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyKAP0RYaIU 5 TIPS TO INCREASE YOUR CS QUICK! League of Legends Guide CS -i like the tip3 combo into farming finish with weaker ability

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa4T4VVh0uQ Low Elo Habits: NO GAME PLAN (Stop Losing Lane) -seems techinical if youre at that level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTB1tkwfgLE 20 ADC TIPS for LANE that are Lesser Known (League of Legends)

there was an older video on cs @ time to gauge but iforget where

need requirement fulfillment

imobs maybe with some hungry supports that scale like viegar, should you feed your support carry tiny morsals whats the minimum effectiveness cs time stamp a viegar needs to be a--idk a video had it at 9:48 cs16 2/1/2 that was a youtuber tho. could calculate the total gold requirement for viegar and lucian at 10:00

i always learn something when i help others some of it i already know but now i just might play lucian

AndurilWielder1 votes

I saw the low elo habits one earlier and watched it already on my own time. I understood all that, and while it seems to only focus on Jhin, good concepts. I think the technicality is where I have the hardest time. I'm pretty good at last hitting tbh, but the point earlier about staying near your support is one I actually never considered. I just let them go in and poke if they want, and I try to focus on farm, since pursuing kills is usually over aggressive as far as I've seen it. However, learning the specific setup technicalities talked about in that vid I think will help. The real problem is learning how to trade and use the minion wave to your advantage.

Though sometimes I feel like there are people who are just better than you :/

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