The game is too loaded with magic resist for the amount of penetration aviable

An Undead brat·Jul 19, 2017·5 votes·636 views

I propose to start a new meme: APCs 2k17

Compared to AD champions AP itemization is so shit. Thresh with ZZ'Rot and Mercurials survives my whole combo as Zyra with 3 plants and walks away - with me having all the magic penetration items that are in the game including Void staff. And why has been this even added to the game? Almost like any DPS AP (maybe except Cass which is decent at best) was strong right now! This is ridiculous.

29 Comments

EedatJul 19, 20176 votes

"I can't burst out an off tank as a control mage"

What am I reading

An Undead bratJul 19, 20173 votes

Nice twisting of my words.

Dark NephthysJul 19, 20173 votes

Yea that's true, when you look at all the items that either give pen or helps defend against Armor or MR, the Magic side is really really low

AD: item 3147 item 3814 item 3035 item 3071 item 3142

AP: item 3151 item 3135 item 3020

This was fine back when MR wasn't super common on items and the Armor values being much higher than MR. Now it's not because we have 2 more MR items and the MR values compared to Armor values aren't as far apart anymore. I think AP items could use at least 1 more magic pen item.

EedatJul 19, 20171 votes

Lololol k change back LW to total armor like Void is then you could complain. Magic pen is better than armor pen. You're talking about stacking multiple items to get the same pen as Void. Top kek

Dark NephthysJul 19, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Lololol k change back LW to total armor like Void is then you could complain. Magic pen is better than armor pen. You're talking about stacking multiple items to get the same pen as Void. Top kek

Highest Possible Magic Pen: 14 (runes) + 7% Masteries + item 3151 item 3135 item 3020 = 44 Flat + 42% magic pen

Highest Possible Armor Pen: 24 (runes) + 7% Masteries + item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3035 = 77 Lethality + 7% Armor pen + 35% Bonus Armor Pen. Didn't even include item 3071 so if you wanted more shred you could buy that, and then even item 3153 to add even more.

Also considering that Armor pen has way more uses other than the abilities doing more damage since it works with their auto attacks and APs only get use of Magic pen off of their abilities which has CDs. I know APCs are not supposed to fight tanks, but when a tank jumps on an AD that is building pen items, they have a much better chance to kit them and melt them and win that fight. If a tank jumps on an APC that is building magic pen they would be screwed since they can't melt through a tank and only hope they have is to CC them and run away and pray they can get away.

EedatJul 19, 20172 votes

Not so fast there. You're leaving out quite a few important details. First off, you only get that amount of Lethality at level 18. But lets ignore that for now. Lets look at an actual scenario. I'll even give you the best case possible and assume we're talking about level 18 so we get the full Lethality.

You want to kill the enemy level 18 Caitlyn . A huge factor you're completely ignoring is base stats. At level 18, Cait has 82.4 base Armor and only 38.5 base MR. See where this is going?

Its also important to note that Penetraton always applies in this order:

Armor reduction, flat Armor reduction, percentage Armor penetration, percentage Armor penetration, flat

Just substitute MR in for Armor for the inverse obviously

Lets do the math for your Lethality setup following your first example:

82.4 - 0 = 82.4 LW does absolutely nothing
82.4 - 7% from masteries (5.7) = 76.7
76.7 - 77 lethality = -0.3 Armor

Now for Magic Pen:

38.5 - 42%(16.2) = 22 MR
22 - 44 flat magic pen = -22 MR

So care to explain how MPen is so bad when item 3136 item 3020 item 3135 (5280g) actually is more effective at bursting than item 3147 item 3814 item 3035 (10,200g) at double the price? You are legitimately comparing 1.5 items + Boots to 3.5 full items lmao.

Anyone who thinks Mpen is bad has no clue what they're talking about. Hate to break the news to you. Even gave you the best case scenario of full Lethality at level 18

Dark NephthysJul 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Not so fast there. You're leaving out quite a few important details. First off, you only get that amount of Lethality at level 18. But lets ignore that for now. Lets look at an actual scenario. I'll even give you the best case possible and assume we're talking about level 18 so we get the full Lethality.

You want to kill the enemy level 18 . A huge factor you're completely ignoring is base stats. At level 18, Cait has 82.4 base Armor and only 38.5 base MR. See where this is going?

Its also important to note that Penetraton always applies in this order:

Armor reduction, flat Armor reduction, percentage Armor penetration, percentage Armor penetration, flat

Just substitute MR in for Armor for the inverse obviously

Lets do the math for your Lethality setup following your first example:

82.4 - 0 = 82.4 LW does absolutely nothing

82.4 - 7% from masteries (5.7) = 76.7

76.7 - 77 lethality = -0.3 Armor

Now for Magic Pen:

38.5 - 42%(16.2) = 22 MR

22 - 44 flat magic pen = -22 MR

So care to explain how MPen is so bad when (5280g) actually is more effective at bursting than (10,200g) at double the price? You are legitimately comparing 1.5 items + Boots to 3.5 full items lmao.

Anyone who thinks Mpen is bad has no clue what they're talking about. Hate to break the news to you. Even gave you the best case scenario of full Lethality at level 18

I'm talking about if a tank jumps on an ADC or APC, the ADC would have no problem at all with just shredding through the tank and killing them, hell most of the time ADCs don't even need lethality and just build any LW item and maybe Botrk and they're set. Meanwhile mages who buys magic pen can't even dent tanks once the late game comes around (outside of a select few mages).

And I know that was what's suppose to happen technically, ADCs are meant to kill the tanks and mages are meant to kill squishy people so it's not really going away from what is suppose to happen. I'm just annoyed that lethality and other armor shredding options which as I mentioned was a lot more options, can shred through tanks but also destroy squishy champions just as easy.

Lethality is very strong and usually rushed as their first items and about the gold cost, you don't even have to buy all the lethality items, you could just buy 2 of them like item 3142 item 3147 and then go into any item after that. While most of the cases, you don't really buy both item 3151 item 3135 on every mage or even if you do it's not until a bit later on since rushing those 2 items on mages are generally going to make you suffer (outside of a few mages). If you did rush those 2 items, you miss out on other very important stats like CDR or mana for less AP and to even really make Liandries useful you would need a slow or buy item 3116 to really make any real benefit from the passives. Which is why most of the time mages are stuck with building only Void + Sorc shoes.

So in the end rushing Magic pen on some mages would allow them to burst down squishy champions, but in the end make them weaker overall and they sacrifice CDR, Mana and other key passives like GW etc. Compare that to Lethality or other tank shredding items and they are just so much better. They could destroy tanks (assuming the tank isn't much more fed), and still kill squishy champions.

Maybe I'm just more annoyed with Lethality items more than the armor vs mr shredding since I don't really have a problem with item 3153 item 3035 item 3071 as items themselves, but just the amount of options you could get from AD side. Also the problem for me is from ADCs abusing it, because I'm fine with Assassins using them as they really do need them. And I'm tired of when Lethality is strong, you see 3 people on the enemy team abusing it (Jungler, ADC and then sometimes Mid/Top) in practically every game.

EedatJul 20, 20171 votes

What are you even talking about? Lethality is complete trash against tanks lmao. Armor hard counters lethality, not the other way around. You're trying to work off some imaginary item 3814 item 3147 item 3142 item 3035 item 3153 item 3071 that in reality is complete garbage against tanks because it's a full burst build and sacrifices DPS. There is no crit and almost no attack speed. Now you're locked into the same scenario if trying to burst out a tank which doesn't work.

You're going to have to do better than trying to propose some 6 item build that still isn't very effective against tanks

HawckeyJul 19, 20172 votes

True, blows my mind that there is only item 3135 item 3151 item 3020 for penning tanks, which only void staff actually makes a difference against mr items, but then again, the whole point of APC is to kill carries, not tanks, which sucks cause it makes you too reliant on your team to DPS the tanky ppl

RalanrJul 19, 20171 votes

Having team reliance is not a bad thing. What's bad is the awkward build path and final price of liandry and void.

HawckeyJul 19, 20172 votes

Even after getting those, you will not do that much to a tank as a long range caster

RalanrJul 19, 20171 votes

Except CC them so your team can beat em.

HawckeyJul 19, 20171 votes

Well my team is retarded 30-40% of the time so it's pretty frustrating to have to rely on them that much

RalanrJul 19, 20171 votes

As a tank main, I do feel your pain.

AhristocatsJul 19, 20172 votes

a tanky champion is surviving a mage's burst, something is indeed wrong

i only play mordekaiser, and end up with 40% mr pen+40 flat mr pen in every single game with runes and masteries, i deal true damage to everyone who has 70 mr or below (magic resistance can go under 0) and it's rare for someone to have more than 70 mr

if you have 100 mr? i don't care, i reduce it to 20 which just increases my damage by 30%

Magic pen is fine, you are not fine, trying to burst a thresh with mr items with a zyra is a bad idea, maybe you should improve

PennsJul 19, 20171 votes

Amout of magic pen is fine imo since boots + Haunting Guise = basically 0 mr for squishies. But I think there could be more options like splitting Void Staff into 2 items like Last Whisper or making more items build out of item 3136

RalanrJul 19, 20171 votes

Why? To allow burst mages to be more effective against anti burst classes?

Best princess EUJul 19, 20171 votes

having multiple voif staff items like last whisper doesn't make you more effective, as far as i know last whisper has a unique passive tied with a name that is shared with ldr and mortal reminder

PennsJul 19, 20171 votes

Giving them more options (so making magic pen on item 3136 / item 3151 a named unique passive and making more items build out of it) shouldnt make mages/ap assassins more effective against tanks.

RalanrJul 19, 20171 votes

I see. Well AP assassins do need more unique itemization. It's just rip for abuse by mages like lethality with every AD caster.

Darkdemon653Jul 19, 20172 votes

You're a bit late to the party. Apart from a few, mages have been trash since season 2.

Best princess EUJul 19, 20176 votes

no, you're just terrible at playing them

AhristocatsJul 19, 20172 votes

ah yeah, they're trash since season2, the season where force of nature, the most broken anti-ap item got removed

Best princess EUJul 19, 20172 votes

hahahahhahah, what the fuck is this thread

Ben SwoIoJul 19, 20172 votes

I have NO issue with more magic resist. Especially when you have easy to use champs like Orianna who just derp burst you with one little Q-W, not even using her ult.

SnaketitsJul 20, 20171 votes

That's just her being a broken champ without any losing matchups. Orianna is in dire need of some actual weaknesses.

DriftSidewaysJul 19, 20171 votes

And there lies the holy trinity AD > Tank > AP > AD Though I feel there should be another AP Pen item since Liandries is so bad on most champs.

WoonStruckJul 20, 20171 votes

No, armor items just suck.

TseisonJul 24, 20171 votes

I upvoted because as a Zyra main, it's utter bullshit when i have FULL Magic Pen items and yet barely scrapping the surface on tanks. Also the fact that AD champions are getting lovely lethality gifts while we only have 3 Magic Pen items? Pfft. I suggest creating another AP item which has a passive that gives you a certain % of Magic pen as you level.