So Rengar...? @Meddler

edoczkat·Jun 2, 2016·3 votes·21,437 views

I saw a post of yours (Meddler) a little while ago that said Rengar will more than likely be getting looked at when it comes time for the next class update (Assassins, Diving fighters, etc...which ever it may be). Now that you released the class and subclass categories with the champions put into their respective classes, how do you see Rengar being changed. Rengar was listed as a Slayer -> Assassin. So do you see him keeping this title? If so what do you see as potential changes. I like to play the champion, and I'm curious to know what I should expect from any future updates.

89 Comments

RiotMeddlerJun 2, 20164 votes

We see Rengar as more of an assassin at present, hence that classification. Lot of discusison though as to whether a healthier Rengar would be closer to a diver or skirmisher. I think it's likely we'll work on Rengar for the end of year class update, can't speak with any confidence about direction until we've had some time to prototype and test some things though.

Solidair3Jun 2, 20162 votes

So let's say assassins are selected to be the next roster update, and Rengar is on the list, but you decide he would be more of a fighter/diver than assassin, because that's a better space for him or whatever.

Would you make someone a better diver during an assassin update?

I asked this about Diana in another thread, but I'm just curious what you think.

RiotMeddlerJun 2, 20162 votes

I could see us looking at Rengar in a Diver or Assassin update. We do want to keep focus on one class of champions at a time, given it allows us to focus a team on a shared set of design problems and enables item etc supporting work too. Some exceptions are ok there though if they're in a similar space and taking advantage of those learnings/systems.

ThaddeusMikeJun 2, 20162 votes

How does this impact the hard to categorize champions? Does it make it harder to find time to work on an Urgot or a Kennen?

RiotMeddlerJun 2, 20161 votes

A large part of these class updates is focused on making champions more distinct from others that do similar things. Hard to categorize champs don't tend to have issues in that regard. Some of them do have bigger functionality and/or game health issues (Hi Urgot), that'll tend to make them good choices for full updates though so they'll get caught in that alternative workflow instead.

slôwJun 3, 20161 votes

Translation:

We want every champion to feel special. Sort of like a snowflake. Champions that we don't have any clue on how to fix because we already messed them up to begin with will just get a full rework that will be so huge that you might as well call them by a different name. We realize that when we do this about half the people maining those champions hate everything we did to them and the other half just play the champion regardless of how different and unfun it feels. We realize that, but we still have deadlines and bosses who are so out of touch with the community they might as well live on the moon and communicate by birdmail.

Irelia BotJun 3, 20161 votes

So... Is Diana viewed as more of an assassin or a Diver?

Her kit seems to conflict with both catagories in some ways. The low base AD and attack speed (which is compensated in a weird way buy giving her 20% bonus attack speed but makes buying attack speed overall weaker on her) kinda kills Trinity and Wit's for her which would be more of a diver level of power but she lacks the mobility/escape of an assassin and also her shield seems more like a diver concept then that of an assassin.

MLDzXnRRRJun 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eLyo1oQw,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-03T02:18:47.179+0000)

So... Is Diana viewed as more of an assassin or a Diver?

Her kit seems to conflict with both catagories in some ways. The low base AD and attack speed (which is compensated in a weird way buy giving her 20% bonus attack speed but makes buying attack speed overall weaker on her) kinda kills Trinity and Wit's for her which would be more of a diver level of power but she lacks the mobility/escape of an assassin and also her shield seems more like a diver concept then that of an assassin.

She was made to be AP bruiser, but that was obviously a fail.

slôwJun 3, 20161 votes

We will probably completely change Rengar due to our bosses sudden need for a class system even though we are 6 years into the game's life cycle and that has never been a real priority for anyone but the people who keep saying they designed the game. We are sort of sorry for this but we never really liked Rengar in the first place because he wasn't quite flashy enough to justify the complete and utter domination of top lane. We either will make him unable to dominate at all or make him more flashy. Certainly true damage though.

Im just too OPJun 2, 20162 votes

Pls say this to me. Will ryze rework be in patch 6.12 or patch 6.13? Im dying to know

RiotMeddlerJun 2, 20162 votes

No, it will not be.

warpenguin555Jun 2, 20161 votes

the order of completion is Ryze-Yorick-Warwick right?

RiotMeddlerJun 2, 20164 votes

Ryze is almost certainly next, and Yorick's the most likely champ after him. Gets a bit less certain after that, though Warwick's a reasonable prediction.

RaxistaichoJun 3, 20161 votes

Any chance for some love for Akali in the future? I've always had a soft spot for her (she was the second non-Ashe champ I ever played after Ahri :] ) but right now she has the cruel distinction of having one of the most worthless abilities in the game (her E).

ReZisT LustJun 3, 20161 votes

her farm tool s e lol

Im just too OPJun 2, 20161 votes

So does he actually have a fixed month rather than a fixed date?

RiotMeddlerJun 2, 20161 votes

Our projects have estimated release patches. Those can change though, based off work going at a different speed than expected, priorities changing, unexpected bugs or balance problems etc. That means we've got estimates even for champs like Warwick who are quite a long way off, they're very much a best attempt at a prediction though rather than a certainty.

slôwJun 3, 20161 votes

We have arbitrary deadlines we need to fill. Those can change on a whim though because my boss has no clue what hes doing and this is first job. Honestly half the time we spend on these projects is fixing past mistakes and redoing things that we could have forseen had we put any thought into it at all. We do however prioritize champions not based on need for rework but instead by size of their dedicated player base. This means we can push warwick out into the statosphere while we rework rengar for the 3rd time.

RéñgodJun 3, 20161 votes

In my opinion Rengar shouldn't have the sustained damage in fights as he has right now with his EMP Q and u could maybe remove the armor and mr increase from his W. I think that Rengar should be an assassin that can assassinate the enemies ADC and Midlaner in a few seconds there is alot of items that counter Rengar super hard such as pink wards, steraks gage, zhonyas, Randuins and many more items that counters Rengar but i think that u shouldn't remove his burst dmg its the enemy mid laner/ADC that they overextend go alone and don't build defensive items. Please answer to this message @Meddler

edoczkatJun 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

In my opinion Rengar shouldn't have the sustained damage in fights as he has right now with his EMP Q and u could maybe remove the armor and mr increase from his W. I think that Rengar should be an assassin that can assassinate the enemies ADC and Midlaner in a few seconds there is alot of items that counter Rengar super hard such as pink wards, steraks gage, zhonyas, Randuins and many more items that counters Rengar but i think that u shouldn't remove his burst dmg its the enemy mid laner/ADC that they overextend go alone and don't build defensive items. Please answer to this message @Meddler

Literally the EASIEST way to "fix" rengar. Remove the MR and Armor from his W. That's it. His kit will stay unique and fun, but he won't be able to 1v5 on even ground.

AptestJun 2, 20164 votes

assassin at present

Rengar represents a lesson not learned by riot: The lesson of original Eve. Burst and CC, from stealth, from a character with ultra high range and dependable "reach" on the win condition characters of the other team. You nerfed eve for it; then you made rengar with the exact same idea.

As it is he's an excellent diver with limited fallback patterns or follow-up moves. Not quite good enough at skirmishing to be capable of limiting return damage or sticking post his initial through mobility and evasion, and not healthy enough due to his signature move to be given adequate burst.

Rengar is the people's favorite: probably because what assassin players seek in a character is a "delete" button for the player on the other team and rengar, when he is strong, provides reliabely. Nonetheless - a bad design.

RiotMeddlerJun 2, 201610 votes

Yep, Rengar's got some problems on his kit that ideally we'd have avoided based off past experience. The intent with his design was for much longer combat/kill times to avoid those issues, that didn't work out as desired however, leading to some extremely low times to live for his targets from the start of the engagement to the end (for them at least).

I do think it's important to call out the positives on Rengar as well though. His kit has issues, but some really good stuff as well (Brush passive changing how/where he wants to fight, Ferocity usage, coherence of theme and gameplay etc).

SolideusJun 2, 20164 votes

Strong or not, I also think Rengar is a huge problem, he being on the opposing team is probably the worst thing in LoL for me. Any counterplay is non-existent, he's horrible to play against even for an assassin.

It's boggling how there's unbelievable burst and super high sustained damage on the same character, as well as high tankyness AND a heal. He's got all the strengths and none of the weaknesses of an Assassin AND a Diver.

Even if you somehow flashes away before he leap-deletes you he has a root to catch you AGAIN. He's a horrible experience, certainly when he's strong and even when he is not. (Sorry if I'm being hyperbolic, that's just my experience.)

On paper though, I think his Brush passive is the most interesting thing on the kit, although I think the sharpness of it is undermined by putting the same leap on the ult, so there's not really anywhere he doesn't like to fight when he needs to (especially since he doesn't have to fight for long, he just deletes people..). There's so many other mechanics on the ult already so I don't know why the unconditional leap had to be put on there too. It'd be more sharp/interesting, and probably healthier, to put some of that power into the brush-passive instead.

The "!" warning you get for a second or two is certainly not enough to have a chance to respond, given that there's no way to escape or stop him from getting to you from miles away, anyway.

If you disagree on any of my comments I'd love to hear your counter-arguments, though, haha. Although I'm just talking about the Rengar we know, not the "ideal" design-version of him. Those two are certainly different beasts...

edoczkatJun 2, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Strong or not, I also think Rengar is a huge problem, he being on the opposing team is probably the worst thing in LoL for me. Any counterplay is non-existent, he's horrible to play against even for an assassin.

It's boggling how there's unbelievable burst and super high sustained damage on the same character, as well as high tankyness AND a heal. He's got all the strengths and none of the weaknesses of an Assassin AND a Diver.

Even if you somehow flashes away before he leap-deletes you he has a root to catch you AGAIN. He's a horrible experience, certainly when he's strong and even when he is not. (Sorry if I'm being hyperbolic, that's just my experience.)

On paper though, I think his Brush passive is the most interesting thing on the kit, although I think the sharpness of it is undermined by putting the same leap on the ult, so there's not really anywhere he doesn't like to fight when he needs to (especially since he doesn't have to fight for long, he just deletes people..). There's so many other mechanics on the ult already so I don't know why the unconditional leap had to be put on there too. It'd be more sharp/interesting, and probably healthier, to put some of that power into the brush-passive instead.

The "!" warning you get for a second or two is certainly not enough to have a chance to respond, given that there's no way to escape or stop him from getting to you from miles away, anyway.

If you disagree on any of my comments I'd love to hear your counter-arguments, though, haha. Although I'm just talking about the Rengar we know, not the "ideal" design-version of him. Those two are certainly different beasts...

I don't really understand the lack of counterplay. His whole ult is counter by half of Janna's kit alone, let alone other champs. However. Something I've been thinking about is instead of just the "!" maybe utilize something like Sion's ult with a global indicator. Like a Roar or something when Rengar ults so you know he is up to something.

I think the leap on his ult is fine if you do something like that. If you take the leap off of the ult, it makes his Ult just feel strange and then he has no gap closers like all other assassins do.

bloodmothJun 3, 20164 votes

he bursts an adc 100>0 in less than 1s from stealth, he has no counterplay, and just because a single character in the game can counter him, that doesnt make him OK

Stepho SenpaiJun 3, 20162 votes

dude its an adc what do u expact ... nearly all dd can burst an adc 100 to 0 xD

bloodmothJun 3, 20163 votes

Yeah but most champs the ADC can atleast see coming, the only other champ with a similar damage pattern is talon, who is just as toxic. The problem is that the ADC cant even choose to not engage because stealth denies him that information, so hes entirely acted upon without chance for retaliation, thats the part that feels so bad

ReZisT LustJun 3, 20161 votes

place a item 2043

bloodmothJun 3, 20162 votes

-_- come on this isnt a healthy counter, besides you cant dictate what direction the stealth champ comes from and that only works in a small area, besides there should be built in counterplay, not just situational 'buy this item' counterplay, and it still does nothing about the obscene burst

ReZisT LustJun 4, 20161 votes

tis all we have for now, place then retreat to tower

bloodmothJun 4, 20161 votes

ah, so your not trying to say that everything is peachy because this item exists?

ReZisT LustJun 4, 20161 votes

nono all i mean is that the ward and 2 lens variants are all we have for now, i suggest getting both juuust in case, casue lets say theyre was vayne janna bot with a rengar comin in for the ulti, janna should have sweepercover one half of the lane throw the ward down in the wall bush in case he comes in form the wall and hightailing it away and if that cant be done hold onto flash until he uses his top ferocity stack so he cant ebola u still.

ReZisT LustJun 4, 20161 votes

may the ping god be on your side as well

bloodmothJun 4, 20161 votes

right, i feel like a pink ward or sweeper are nowhere near enough to deal with talon or rengar though, by the time they pick him up its probably too late.

Still dont like items like that being the only option vs stealth

ReZisT LustJun 4, 20161 votes

i did personally like the aram bow that gave crit and a vision smoke puff it would imo be a good add in for countering him and other invis champs too if they tweaked it a little like a longer cast range it at least gives a bit more to the table but its removed permanently so rip thaat

bloodmothJun 4, 20161 votes

lightbringer? I still dont think that invisibility and anti invisibility are good gameplay paradigms, you pretty much have to luck out or be incredibly good at predicting your opponent to reveal them, and completely nullifying their ult is pretty bad, i think situational invisibility is a good thing though, kind of like how the bushes work, or cloaking where the target shimmers. Akalis invisibility for instance i dont think anyone complains about (akali as a whole on the other hand...)

So basically free invisibility is undercosted imo

NumptyJun 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I don't really understand the lack of counterplay. His whole ult is counter by half of Janna's kit alone, let alone other champs. However. Something I've been thinking about is instead of just the "!" maybe utilize something like Sion's ult with a global indicator. Like a Roar or something when Rengar ults so you know he is up to something.

I think the leap on his ult is fine if you do something like that. If you take the leap off of the ult, it makes his Ult just feel strange and then he has no gap closers like all other assassins do.

I think the "!" is really good though. It means that you know when he's CLOSE, not just when he's ulting. A Lucian can dash out of his leap when he knows Rengar is nearly on top of him thanks to that "!". Just knowing that somewhere on the map there is an ulting rengar is not worth as much IMO.

Rengar Top LaneJun 3, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Strong or not, I also think Rengar is a huge problem, he being on the opposing team is probably the worst thing in LoL for me. Any counterplay is non-existent, he's horrible to play against even for an assassin.

It's boggling how there's unbelievable burst and super high sustained damage on the same character, as well as high tankyness AND a heal. He's got all the strengths and none of the weaknesses of an Assassin AND a Diver.

Even if you somehow flashes away before he leap-deletes you he has a root to catch you AGAIN. He's a horrible experience, certainly when he's strong and even when he is not. (Sorry if I'm being hyperbolic, that's just my experience.)

On paper though, I think his Brush passive is the most interesting thing on the kit, although I think the sharpness of it is undermined by putting the same leap on the ult, so there's not really anywhere he doesn't like to fight when he needs to (especially since he doesn't have to fight for long, he just deletes people..). There's so many other mechanics on the ult already so I don't know why the unconditional leap had to be put on there too. It'd be more sharp/interesting, and probably healthier, to put some of that power into the brush-passive instead.

The "!" warning you get for a second or two is certainly not enough to have a chance to respond, given that there's no way to escape or stop him from getting to you from miles away, anyway.

If you disagree on any of my comments I'd love to hear your counter-arguments, though, haha. Although I'm just talking about the Rengar we know, not the "ideal" design-version of him. Those two are certainly different beasts...

Stop playing with a solo mind-set against him and work as a team for crying out loud. Instead of being selfish and picking your favorite champion (good lord at the amount of yasuo's I've stomped top in past), pick things that can make it more difficult from completing his job. Top: Maokai, malphite, Shen, Lulu, Wukong; Mid: Azir, Kayle, Lulu, Twisted Fate, Zilean, Zyra; Adc: any with mobility but it still depends on your team's effort in protecting. Get an immobile one and you're dead most of time; Support: Braum, Thresh, Janna, Bard (legendary Bard mains only), Alistar, Lulu, Morgana (that can hit snares and black shield roots); Jungle: someone that ganks hard early, invades, or provides great cc (amumu, reksai, kindred, Grag come to mind)

Always stay with someone else. Never travel alone or in two's as support/adc in mid game.

Most importantly buy pinks and ward his jungle if he's jungle rengar. If top Rengar, punish him for over-extending (at your top laner's turret or in middle of lane) beware of bush outplays.

SolideusJun 3, 20163 votes

I am talking about why Rengar is a horrible design that needs to be dealt with. You seem to not want to talk about how horribly designed he is, perhaps because you are desperate for him not to be changed? It may be fun for the Rengar when there's no options to play against him, but the entire game suffers for it, so it'd be childish to demand him not changing. Please instead try to argue why he needs ALL THE THINGS with extremely high reliability to function, while most assassins don't.

Rengar platers I've met have the "solo mind-set" if anything; "I'M having fun being oppressive, so everyone else should shut it! It's fair because I can't 1v3 you ALL of the time! DONT NERF PLX". There's a bunch of assassins that can do their job without being extremely overloaded, despite Rengar players swearing that removing ANYTHING would "gut" him.

Most assassins actually lets you be relativelly safe SOMEWHERE outside the fountain, Rengar does not. Unrivaled initiation and less than a second to kill is not okay or manageable at most skill levels, even with backup.

Merchant BaldurJun 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Strong or not, I also think Rengar is a huge problem, he being on the opposing team is probably the worst thing in LoL for me. Any counterplay is non-existent, he's horrible to play against even for an assassin.

It's boggling how there's unbelievable burst and super high sustained damage on the same character, as well as high tankyness AND a heal. He's got all the strengths and none of the weaknesses of an Assassin AND a Diver.

Even if you somehow flashes away before he leap-deletes you he has a root to catch you AGAIN. He's a horrible experience, certainly when he's strong and even when he is not. (Sorry if I'm being hyperbolic, that's just my experience.)

On paper though, I think his Brush passive is the most interesting thing on the kit, although I think the sharpness of it is undermined by putting the same leap on the ult, so there's not really anywhere he doesn't like to fight when he needs to (especially since he doesn't have to fight for long, he just deletes people..). There's so many other mechanics on the ult already so I don't know why the unconditional leap had to be put on there too. It'd be more sharp/interesting, and probably healthier, to put some of that power into the brush-passive instead.

The "!" warning you get for a second or two is certainly not enough to have a chance to respond, given that there's no way to escape or stop him from getting to you from miles away, anyway.

If you disagree on any of my comments I'd love to hear your counter-arguments, though, haha. Although I'm just talking about the Rengar we know, not the "ideal" design-version of him. Those two are certainly different beasts...

I agree with you somewhat, since i've mained rengar on my main account and I know almost all the ins and outs of the kitty. Though rengar is capable to delete ADC's in 1-4 seconds' time, there is so much delicate and complex combos at work. It took months, maybe even years for rengar mains throughout the world to craft builds, adapt every patch, and the one shot combo itself was created. You charge up your 5 fero Q, mid-air you cast your E (which riot made it tons harder to land mid air) and W-Hydra both at the same time to cancel the W animation. Though I agree with riot that rengar needs work, I just want them to know to not waste and throw away the 4-year long work of people who strived to make the champion better and even overpowered. Rework him, do not completely scrap his kit. Heck, if not for the dedicated rengar mains Dekar and Ryan Choi, almost no one would even play Rengar after his nerf since alot viewed the champion trash post-rework. I do not hold control and I am just stating my (biased?) opinion. I will continue to support Reng as a champ after the rework, as a true rengar main I will stick to him through all the good and the bad.

TLDR: If riot rework rengar, do not completely scrap all of his abilities and possibly only leave his Q, and his brush passive.

SolideusJun 3, 20161 votes

I can see how the ferocity management, especially with the Q, is appealing. The problem is how several instant empowered attack-resets creates such massive and quick burst when the combo is executed; the input is great, the output is the issue.

There's no reason to remove the combo per say, but the way damage is dealt itself should be entirely changed, imho, such that it is dealt over a longer window. The AS component is a failed attempt at this, as it stands.

Either way, do you think it would ruin the feeling of the ability by removing the attack-timer reset and making it an on-next-attack? I suspect it might. I don't think a DoT would be a good solution, because it's less visceral relative to it's power. Some other delayed damage might work; perhaps Q JUST giving attack speed, or Q applying a delayed mark that can be popped by an auto a second or two later.

Alternatively, I could see it being more justified to have somewhat high burst if his initiation was less reliable. IDK.

That's the tough issue with assassins that have such reliable leaps; it's hard to make abilities that can be dodged or otherwise played against when the assassin reliably get right on top of someone. Even with a fractional second where you can flash away, it's really tough for him to miss E or W when Rengar is already right on top of someone. Unintuitively, ranged assassins are often healthier designs for this reason, imo.

BlackquillJun 3, 20162 votes

That does not change the unholy fusion of two design components that should never be fused: Burst and Stealth. Evelynn has been pushed more towards being an AD DPS assassin and Twitch was always supposed to DPS. This thing works because it gives you time to react to the suddenly emerging threat that you literally did not see coming.

Rengar however is always in this limbo of being either super obnoxious or super useless. What happens when he is super obnoxious is what we could see during his 4 week long reign throughout all elos in preseason 6. Possibly the most horrible 4 weeks i have ever experienced in League.

AptestJun 23, 20161 votes

to be fair, "tank 0-damage rengar" saw quite a lot of competitive play.

Specifically as a combo-enabler....

...but i suppose most rengar players want to insta gib, rather than "play tank".

GommunismJun 3, 20161 votes

Can you confirm that Rengar will maintain his identity as a pure Assassin in the update or do you plan to move him towards more of a Fighter or Assassin-esque Diver like Wu, Nocturne, Lee, or Eve?

slôwJun 3, 20161 votes

Really we didn't know what we were doing, and still don't at all. So I'm just going to state the obvious about how what we tried to do was the exact opposite, and say we would have avoided it with more experience and that "didn't work out as desired" like it wasn't a problem we have in thinking that made it go bad, and was just an accident.

To make it seem like we know more about what the hell we are talking about, lets start stating even more obvious stuff about what we like in Rengar. Some of the things we like is what the art team did and how they told us this champion liked to hunt, so we made the champion feel like a hunter, damn we are good, definitely makes up for the fact we've tried many times to make this champion not entirely terrible to play against and still have no idea on what to do even though the top Rengar players of all time have offered to help us with it for as much time as needed. We don't need help though, we are Riot. We don't make mistakes, just accidents.

AMYS GRAVEJun 4, 20161 votes

The ! that tells you you're about to die without counterplay could be removed for a start. No reason to have it.

PixelzGrJun 4, 20161 votes

Hey meddler i know you probably wont see this but i wanted to express my opinion on this rework and i believe that its not rengars fault or the stealth mechanic but i believe that the players dont know how to counter play it because the depent on Riot to nerf everyone who is annoying to play against like rengar or zed.If you want rengar to be healthy dont try to nerf him or rework him but make a video for the players to understand how to counter him or them because they will not learn how to play against them.I have seen people commenting on videos how they want to coumter them with skill and not with item but this is impossible because its like saying i want to win a 1v1 versus a feed zed with skill only . And since rengar is a special case to me because he is the reason a play league just because people dont want to see the way to counter him like cc him ,group, ward its not fair to change him because they are dumb.

I hope you make the best decision his life is on your hands

EstocJun 4, 20161 votes

I might be wrong but what is causing Rengar to be the primary target of complaints is he's stealth plus the fact that he can one shot anyone who isn't a tank. Most player will buy the oracle's lens or a pink ward to try and see where he's coming from but those two inform you, in many cases, when it is already too late ! One healthy and simple way to introduce some counterplay to that would be to implement a new element to Rengar ult: a sort of compass on everyone in the enemy team, that would look like Fiora's ult for example, and that would tell you:

When Rengar used it's stealth (it is a really long range stealth and it could give you enough time to group up). Sion, Reksai, TF all have a way to tell you that something is going on far away from you and that it is coming towards you very fast to kill you. Rengar definitely fits in that category
Tell you approximatly from where the danger is coming. A NSEW kind of radar. Might even add a color to it to tell you if he's far away or really close (so you can start dropping wards/oracles) but I am not sure if this would completely kill Rengar or not.. So, yes to the compass, maybe for the range indicator.

SolideusJun 2, 20162 votes

You put it super well, much better than I do, mostly because of my version would be colored by a lot of frustration at this point, haha.

A reliable leap and stealth just doesn't mix, as you say; it's telling that diver-Evelynn is the only version that has been allowed to stick around without being gutted. I also think time has shown the "!"-warning hasn't been enough of a drawback to create any meaningful counterplay.

Just looking at the ult in general there's just SO much stuff on it, compared to other similar champions. It's especially weird because in a dueling scenario Rengar packs quite the punch even without his ult.

In the end, it feels like someone put a lot of cool mechanics on Rengar (passive, ult-vision) and then ruined it by making him so reliably powerful that he didn't really have to play around any of those mechanics to succeed.

SupaHotpocketsJun 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Rengar represents a lesson not learned by riot: The lesson of original Eve. Burst and CC, from stealth, from a character with ultra high range and dependable "reach" on the win condition characters of the other team. You nerfed eve for it; then you made rengar with the exact same idea.

Rengar is the people's favorite: probably because what assassin players seek in a character is a "delete" button for the player on the other team and rengar, when he is strong, provides reliabely. Nonetheless - a bad design.

Okay, not quite. He requires initial setting up, getting 5 stacks of ferocity and then engaging. That makes him unable to burst an ADC as soon as he came out of respawn unlike Eve. In addition he needs to have Youmuus fully built to engage on someone without them having a decent while to react. Finally the problem with Eve is that she was constantly in stealth. She was a pretty good early jungler where as Rengar's early jungle clears are so bad and his early ganks pre-6 will be almost nonexistent.

Don't compare him to old Eve.