Kha'zix is an unhealthy assassin. What is Rengar then?

Quantum Lotus··124 votes·8,274 views

I have played far too many games with a Kha'zix that ends up being completely useless and cant burst down anyone because he gets killed too quick, even with his isolation bonus. But whenever I play with a Rengar he always ends up being able to 2-shot squishies. Kha'zix cant even 4 shot squishies if he has a small lead. Rengar can still end up 2 shotting if he is behind.

My real question is; why is Rengar allowed to be soooooooooo strong but Kha'zix isn't even allowed to have damage??? Yet Kha'zix is the unhealthy assassin?????

Interested in hearing other peoples thoughts.

158 Comments

WolfChases74 votes

Answer is quite simple. This game is not all about damage but mostly about game play and champion design tho. Kha'Zix is by far more superior than Rangar since Rengar is 1 trick pony, you will get feed and dominate or get behind and suck balls. As Rengar, If you don't have your R ready to use before the team fight you are simply useless and also, Rengar doesn't fits poke team combo.

In the other hand, Kha'Zix is more versatile in terms of literally everything (except damage ATM) comparing to Rengar. You can use your Leap whenever it's off CD while Rengar can use it only if he's in the bush or out of his Ultimate. Kha'zix's Void Spikes are great tool for Poke team comp while Rengar's bola deals minor damage and is lower range and is mostly used as a single target skills hoot CC. Kha'Zix have 2 or 3 stealths to juke his enemy or proc his passive or engage or disengage, Kha'Zix can proc his passive whenever he's invisible and he can be invisible more often than Rengar can, etc, etc.

Kha'Zix was always the problem for Balance Team simply because his kit is too versatile comparing to Rengar who's nothing but a brute all in force and If Rengar doesn't have enough damage he would be useless. Kha'Zix evolution system is problematic and everyone knows that when his Q was strong people evolved Q and he was able to hit like truck, when his W was strong people evolved W for insane poke on low CD even as AOE and If I remember well Kha was able to use his W in mid leap which was devastating, his R offered him defensive stats on top of stealth, unit collision and speed buff and whenever something is strong on Kha'Zix he would be on the top of the food chain while Rengar simply won't.

Don't get me wrong, I like both of them, to be honest, I even like Kha'Zix more than Rengar since I love insects even irl but yes, Kha'Zix's kit is more superior, harder to balance and simply more superior than Rengar's and that's the main reason Riot keeps Kha'Zix under the edge right now.

Rengar is indeed more viable than Kha'Zix right now but it doesn't means that Kha'Zix wouldn't push Rengar out of the rift after a single serious buff to any part of his kit. Actually, the only thing Kha'Zix needs is his isolation range to be reverted to pre nerf state and he would be 3 times better than Rengar. :)

They are quite similar, both, Rengar's and Kha's kits require high damage to be viable but as I said, Kha's utility is superior and if he would be able to deal the same amounts of damage as Rengar he would be able to abuse the combination of insanely good utility and insanely high damage potential which ain't that good imo :D - Looking at you Lee Sin.

Quantum Lotus1 votes

[deleted]

ShadowParker10 votes

Out of that huge wall of context, that's all you got? lmao.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

Interested in hearing "what he got".

MrSuperKoopa1 votes

That still doesn't stop a Rengar from running through my team (Through item 2043) And STILL one-shot me and he gets away. I would have won a recent game if Rengar wasn't able to one-shot me every teamfight.

I still feel like Rengar deserves some sort of nerf onto either his Q or his ultimate. Nerf his damage on his Q, or give more counterplay to his ultimate. The ! isn't enough because nobody knows how to stop him in Plat or below. (It gets really annoying, even when I tell my team to clump up onto me when rengar is trying to kill be before a teamfight.)

Left Hook Larry9 votes

If you saw a Rengar coming through a pink and still didn't cc/focus him then I got news for you

The champ isn't the problem here LOL

MrSuperKoopa1 votes

You want me to CC him as an ADC with no CC? kek

Left Hook Larry1 votes

This is a team game. The adc does the damage, your team protects you usually.

MrSuperKoopa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGqlTscm,comment-id=00020006000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-31T18:43:12.692+0000)

This is a team game. The adc does the damage, your team protects you usually.

Usually. More like let's ditch the ADC

Naag One2 votes

{quoted}

As Rengar, If you don't have your R ready to use before the team fight you are simply useless

so you saying as Kha'zix u can jump into a team fight without having your R ready and be useful somehow? idk but only useful thing Kha' has done is like 1 Q on some non-isolated adc before being exploded

ChargeItDownMid19 votes

[deleted]

Quantum Lotus4 votes

{quoted}

Because ranger is a trade 1:1 assasin while khazix is a kill multiple target assasin. Rengar being able to trade his life for a squishy target with similar farm isn't really that big of a problem. If kha was strong, he would be able to chain multiple kills which is pretty unhealthy for a moba.

True, but in Kha'zix's current state, the targets need to be really low, and they HAVE to be isolated or Kha wont do enough damage. And most people just don't allow Kha to get that extra damage off. At least that's how I feel.

Theturtlebox21 votes

I don't see how rengar is a "trade 1:1" he has enough damage to instakill a person, then with the increased attack speed from his low-cd q's can usually kill one or two more people if he's not too behind.

Rengar Top Lane1 votes

{quoted}

I don't see how rengar is a "trade 1:1" he has enough damage to instakill a person, then with the increased attack speed from his low-cd q's can usually kill one or two more people if he's not too behind.

Traded many 1:3's in ranked. Just depends on enemy cc. However, in a teamfight around bushes... You can clean up pretty well if you aren't hard cc'd/focused.

Mayor Stubbs19 votes

Personally, my short answer on the advantage Kha has over reng is that he is able to jump in for a kill, and escape safely. Something no assassin should have. Fizz works similarly who i also dislike.

Edit: I have no opinion on if kha is stronger or weaker than reng currently. Just wanted to throw input on what I believe his advantage is, the thing reng "doesnt" have that kha does.

Quantum Lotus2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mayor Stubbs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGqlTscm,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-20T01:14:37.909+0000)

Personally, my short answer on the advantage Kha has over reng is that he is able to jump in for a kill, and escape safely. Something no assassin should have. Fizz works similarly who i also dislike.

Good point.

Remlap122317 votes

Kha'Zix is weaker because he falls off a cliff. Rengar carries. Rengar doesn't need to be by himself to hit like a truck. Rengar's upgrades are actually good, and he can realistically get them all game. Rengar's passive is cheesy bullshit, while Kha'Zix's passive is bullshit because it sucks.

Back when Kha'Zix was strong and Rengar was in the gutter, it was obviously the other way around. And then Kha'Zix got kneecapped, and Rengar got reworked, and the rest is history.

YumaS2Astral7 votes

{quoted}

Kha'Zix is weaker because he falls off a cliff. Rengar carries. Rengar doesn't need to be by himself to hit like a truck. Rengar's upgrades are actually good, and he can realistically get them all game. Rengar's passive is cheesy bullshit, while Kha'Zix's passive is bullshit because it sucks.

Back when Kha'Zix was strong and Rengar was in the gutter, it was obviously the other way around. And then Kha'Zix got kneecapped, and Rengar got reworked, and the rest is history.

It's because Kha'Zix has a superior overall kit to Rengar, but Rengar has better damage. Kha'Zix has much better utility and that's why he has been nerfed, he used to have Rengar levels of damage, while having poke, AoE slow, free defensive stats, and the ability to escape.

Kha'Zix still has better utility, but the point of picking an assassin is for their ability to burst squishies, not to have utility. If I were to get utility I would pick a tank, or Lulu or Anivia or Lux... Not Kha'Zix. And that's why Kha'Zix is in a bad spot and nobody wants to pick him.

DorkunedAuras10 votes

If I wanted utility, I'd get Ekko... Who's also an assassin... Dammit Riot.

Tails Doll1 votes

But Ekko utility is not really reliable.

DorkunedAuras9 votes

One very reliable slow from his Q, his 3 hit proc is a slow, landing his W (E?) slow isn't that with prediction, the stun is a bit harder for sure. He has more utility than KZ, with more escapes, safety, AND still has good enough base damages to be played as full tank...

charcharmunro7 votes

It's weird, you'd think the hunter would be the early-game beast and the evolving creature would be the late-game beast.

SerBlaise2 votes

I emphatically disagree. A good assassin design SHOULD allow you to get in, kill, and get out. The key aspect here should be that you shouldn't be able to do much more than that; no 1v5ing or AOE facerolling. I mean, what's the alternative to escaping safely? Die? How is 'jump in, kill, die' a good champion design? So a good assassin design requires you be able to get out. It's what happens AFTER you get out that should be limited (cooldowns, low/no AOE, low wave clear, etc).

Ariel the Cruel13 votes

I mean, what's the alternative to escaping safely? Die?

Diana In my experience, the best alternative is to just keep killing people. No reason to stop at just one.

SerBlaise1 votes

<3 my main :)

But to some extent that's not always a viable strategy unfortunately. I love Diana and as powerful as she is there is just something lacking in her game play right now. She needs to be pushed more into the fighter/AP brusier role and given some kind of health sustain options. There are too many items that I need before I feel good playing diana (Mana item, zhonyas, damage, cdr). The necessity of item 3157 really holds her back imo.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Riot mentioned wanting to push her into the bruiser role a long time ago (see old forums). Since being a sticky fighter was really her original intent - the reset gameplay on her ult just ended up giving too much burst. Similiar how Ahri was always meant to be played as a kite mage - but DFG forced her into assassin.

Mayor Stubbs1 votes

I agree the alternative shouldn't be to just die,

The alternative to escaping safely is strategizing when to go in. They should have to think about flanking, or waiting until enemies cooldowns are on CD before going in. (or look for picks as they would excel killing 1 on 1) I don't think it's very fair an assassin can jump in and delete a squishy and then jump out, that's pretty much the definition of low risk high reward imo.

A great example of a well designed assassin in my opinion is talon. Has clear lane weaknesses, he has an ult that is needed to kill squishies or it can be used as an escape. Generally speaking, he has to choose to use his ult defensively or offensively. An example of what I consider a poor designed assassin is Zed. Unbelievably safe laning phase, can EASILY go into a group and use his combo to kill someone then teleport out. And he has great sustained damage if he is 1v1ing in addition to assassin type burst damage.

9kPluzZ3 votes

I wouldn't call talon healthy. He one-shots so hard late game. I have been building item 3087 with thunderlords hydra and the burst is insane

Matezoide10 votes

Kha'Zix used to be unhealthier because he could burst almost as fast as Rengar while being 5 times as likely to escape.

Then he got the nerf hammer. Rengar got rework, but it ended up reworking him into the exact same champion with a skillshot.

Auz the Ripper6 votes

Nah, Rengar was reworked into the exact same champion sans splitpushing.

Stopping Rengar's obnoxiously good splitpushing was one of the bigger goals of his rework and literally the only goal that was achieved

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Now Mundo does almost the same amount of damage to towers as old Rango. It's not NEARLY as bad, but the doc can definitely take turrets with one wave after 18 minutes or so by just tanking the last 20% if need be when the wave dies.

Fear Popo6 votes

The reason they won't let Kha Zix two shot people even when he is behind is because he, unlikely Rengar, has resets, which have historically proven problematic for balance reasons. If they don't buff him enough, he does nothing, while if they over buff him even a little, he murders a whole team like a psychotic bouncing cockroach.

Shac Norris5 votes

I gave up on Kha'Zix after his 3rd nerf.

He's either god or completly shit now.

Spank me hard2 votes

Because Rengar isn't "SOooooooooooooooooooo strong".

Kha'Zix is disgustingly OP when played correctly. Look at NB3 play kha'zix jungle, he bursts people 100-0 in single combo before you can even realise what's happening and having to rewind and play the video again in slow motion...

Maszii2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank me hard,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eGqlTscm,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2015-12-20T12:38:48.607+0000)

Because Rengar isn't "SOooooooooooooooooooo strong".

Kha'Zix is disgustingly OP when played correctly. Look at NB3 play kha'zix jungle, he bursts people 100-0 in single combo before you can even realise what's happening and having to rewind and play the video again in slow motion...

Same goes for Rengo on NB3, AD or AP.

I7A6X2v22 votes

Rengar can't leap every 10 secs and he can't 2-shot squishies when he is behind.

Actually xPeke3 votes

Rengar Yea, he can leap every second. His leap literally has no cooldown

MrSlowDie3 votes

well yeah, he can leap every second if he AA go to bush, AA, go to bush again, and AA again, and back to bush again.

Steel Blossom2 votes

Kha'zix's isolation is just a trash concept. First of all, nobody's gonna be isolated in teamfights. Secondly, any assassin can pick off squishies who are so mispositioned, they don't even have ally minions nearby. Thirdly, without the isolation bonus, he can't really jump into the fray and blow someone up the way other assassins can, nor can he survive diving into a full-on teamfight now that his ult no longer give dmg reduction, which means that if the enemies play their cards right, each teamfight is a 4v5. And if your team is so ahead that they can leave you with five free cleanups, you're much better off on someone like Kat or Talon. Kha'zix is largely reliant on his enemies being out of position to deal damage, which is just completely garbage no matter how large his isolation bonus might be.

Dengeden1 votes

Because supports suck and would rather finish their sunfire cape than buy pink wards. That's literally it, their mobility is more or less identical.

Also, Rengo is an initiator, K6 has to wait before he jumps in.

Oberic9 votes

{quoted}

Because supports suck and would rather finish their sunfire cape than buy pink wards. That's literally it, their mobility is more or less identical.

Also, Rengo is an initiator, K6 has to wait before he jumps in.

A pink ward costs 75 gold. A support can only place one pink ward at a time. If the team wants more pink wards, the team needs to buy pink wards, because supports can't ward everything any more.

Your argument is invalid.

Dengeden1 votes

75g is a laughable amount. I don't care if the pink ward they've already placed covers 2000 units. If Rengar ulted, the support damn well better place it to ruin his initiation.

That's not to say the laners shouldn't buy pinks but that's not nearly as reliable once items clutter up the inventory.

I stand by what I said.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Meanwhile in support world, where every single gold is hard-earned and hard to come by, we get to deal with the bozos who still think supports are just one-trick ward bots. Who then never fail to QQ in chat about how useless the support is in teamfights, after screaming at them to provide pink wards non-stop all game.

If you can't be bothered to help buy wards, at the very least get upgraded Red Trinket and pink ward yourself.

MrSuperKoopa1 votes

except for the fact that we sometimes stil do buy pink wards and supports can't peel for crap sometimes... oh wait nevermind it's fucking rengar and apprantly its a good idea to split away from the adc whos being targetted.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Me as Nami.

"Okay, we're grouped together to deal with the enemy team"

Sees !.

"Uh oh, Rengar is ab-"

Rengar jumps out of nowhere onto my ADC

"I gotta bubble him!"

Bubbles Rengar

"Where's my ADC?"

An ally has been slain.

Unless you're someone with instant point and click hard CC or are Tahm, Rengar usually kills your carry faster than you can put a pink ward down or CC him.

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

If it's laughable, it shouldn't be that hard for someone else to buy it.

Dengeden1 votes

Read the rest instead of jumping on the first sentence.

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

I know that you said, basically, that supports should always have one pink ward down and one in their inventory. Laners, on the other hand, can sometimes have a pink ward, but it's excusable because they have items to clutter up their inventory (and apparently supports don't).

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