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Why do Banner of Command minions have immunity to magic damage?

5000000000000000··28 votes·2,350 views

If anything, shouldn't it be immunity to physical damage or AoE damage?

I'm guessing it's that Banner of Command minions can survive insta waveclear of champions like Viktor and Anivia, but there are a lot of AD champions with good waveclear (although not as good as those two). Also, they can be killed by minions and towers pretty easily once the other minions are gone.

Banner of Command can be punishing if the enemy team is running heavy AP comp, but heavy AP comp is punishing enough because they can't take objectives easily (with some exceptions). Full AD comps are harder to counter because of their early game strength and strong armor penetration options. Banner could be an effective punishment for such a composition.

What about just heavy damage reduction? Or Bannering the entire wave? Immunity to minion damage? Immunity to magic damage doesn't feel good to use or feel good to counter, and is just wonky in general.

42 Comments

venomous frost22 votes

because minions do physical damage Thus a enhanced minion cannot kill multiple creep waves by just tanking them forever

50000000000000002 votes

Could have an exception for towers. It's not like a banner wave is actually going to be killed by minions.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

It also used to just give MR and not armor, so it was defined as an item to buy against AP. Why would you promote a minion with more armor against someone who can instamurder it with one ability?

ChaddyFantome10 votes

it was already explained, by Riot, that it was so they wouldn't be cleared by AP waveclear, you know, the most prevalent form of Wave clear?

Full AD comps are harder to counter

Is this a joke? AD comps are way easier to punish because Armor stacking is more effective than MR stacking.

50000000000000003 votes

But if it's supposed to be anti-waveclear, why not just AoE mitigation? That covers all forms of waveclear. And I'm not sure if AP is the most prevalent form of waveclear. Runaan's is a common item to buy on ADC, and most AD champions have good waveclear. Jinx has amazing waveclear, as does most AD assassins.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

But if it's supposed to be anti-waveclear, why not just AoE mitigation? That covers all forms of waveclear. And I'm not sure if AP is the most prevalent form of waveclear. Runaan's is a common item to buy on ADC, and most AD champions have good waveclear. Jinx has amazing waveclear, as does most AD assassins.

Runaan's is an item you have to specifically buy for the waveclear. I don't think it is good as a flat argument basis in the essence of the choice in making it the way it is. As for AD assassins, there is a grand total of 3 and outside of them getting Tiamat, Kha Zix's wave clear is meh, Talon's and Zed's is alright.

i think the problem with AoE mitigation is that you make it susceptible to things like single target rapid clear like Malzahars's E.

Narasimha1 votes

As for AD assassins, there is a grand total of 3

Rengar I build AP ONE game... Nocturne I don't think people even remember I'm an assassin Shaco Atleast you know what to build.

Faustavian1 votes

Shaco is easy, item 1402 item 3100 item 3146 item 3157 item 3089 item 3135 item 3364 Nocturne is an assassin, and I love reminding the enemy of it the hard way Poor Rengo....

Faustavian1 votes

As well as you forgot Talon Yasuo Zed

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

As well as you forgot Talon Yasuo Zed

Yasuo aint an assassin. he is a skirmisher.

Faustavian1 votes

You keep telling yourself that....

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Rengar I build AP ONE game... Nocturne I don't think people even remember I'm an assassin Shaco Atleast you know what to build.

You got me with Rengo, but Nocturne is a diver and Shaco builds Hybrid/AP right now.

RavenMagus1 votes

Nocturne is an assassin.

He just seems like a diver because he kills people instantly, which for some reason is a diver thing now and not an assassin thing.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Nocturne is an assassin.

He just seems like a diver because he kills people instantly, which for some reason is a diver thing now and not an assassin thing.

... or, you know, because he dives the back line, initiates and stays in the thick of the fight after doing so ?

RavenMagus1 votes

He dives one person, kills them dead, and has very little left afterwards.

You know, like Akali, or Talon, or many other assassins.

Nocturne plays just like that. He's even listed under Assassins as his main role.

So, there ya go.

Nameless Voice1 votes

{quoted}

Runaan's is an item you have to specifically buy for the waveclear.

It's also an item that most ADs currently because it has has good stats in is great in teamfights.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eA7g3oyt,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-08T01:39:26.525+0000)

It's also an item that most ADs currently because it has has good stats in is great in teamfights.

Most? not even. only a select few, those being the ones that like on-hits. Cait, jinx and Twitch (kalista?) are the only ones really getting it, as such.

venomous frost1 votes

OP used a poor choice of words, just like you.

He means that AD comps are stronger early game, and can snowball harder, which is arguably true.

As for your statement, armor stacking is easier and cheaper, not more effective, item 3071 item 3036 penetrate more armor than any combination of magic pen items.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

[{quoted}](name=venomous frost,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eA7g3oyt,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-01-07T21:53:24.963+0000)

OP used a poor choice of words, just like you.

He means that AD comps are stronger early game, and can snowball harder, which is arguably true.

As for your statement, armor stacking is easier and cheaper, not more effective, item 3071 item 3036 penetrate more armor than any combination of magic pen items.

First off the vast amount of AP in the game alone makes this assertion ridiculous. But the claim that it is more effective than the Magic penetration option is also pure folly. item 3135 alone is inherently more effective than item 3035 and either of its upgrades, as it accounts for total MR as opposed to just bonus, and black clever both takes time to stack up and is build primarily by casters, whom don't even typically get item 3035 or either of its upgrades to begin with.

Add this with the easily and pretty much universally purchaseditem 3020 , the inherent deficiency in MR compared to Armor as mentioned before, as champions get more armor per level, and the large amount of magic based stats available via items compared to AD as mentioned before, and stacking MR becomes a joke compared to stacking armor, especially versus champs that synergize with item 3151.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

it was already explained, by Riot, that it was so they wouldn't be cleared by AP waveclear, you know, the most prevalent form of Wave clear?

Is this a joke? AD comps are way easier to punish because Armor stacking is more effective than MR stacking.

really dude? a mundo with 250 MR ulting will literally never die against a full ap comp. never.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Legit all you need is a Malzahar with Morrelo, Void staff and Liandries, press all his buttons on mundo and your team will more than sufficiently be able to burst him out in that lockdown time frame. Not even joking.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

Legit all you need is a Malzahar with Morrelo, Void staff and Liandries, press all his buttons on mundo and your team will more than sufficiently be able to burst him out in that lockdown time frame. Not even joking.

right. i will just get QSS and mundo wont stay long enough in ult to takea any damage. malzahr is the only mage that can kill tanks. along with brand but even brand can't kill supertanks like mundo late game.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

it was already explained, by Riot, that it was so they wouldn't be cleared by AP waveclear, you know, the most prevalent form of Wave clear?

Is this a joke? AD comps are way easier to punish because Armor stacking is more effective than MR stacking.

Actual full AP comps are very rare because there is almost always at least the ADC doing physical damage. The only way to make it a "full AP" comp is if they were going Ziggs or Corki as the "ADC". Otherwise, there is almost always the ADC forcing you to itemize for armor even when there is 4 enemy APs, which makes AD comps easier to punish.

Full AD comps are uncommon, but way more common than full AP comps because every potential source of magic damage can easily be replaced by a champion which does physical damage. The reverse is not true because it is hard to replace the ADC with something that do fully magic damage (other than the aforementioned examples of Corki and Ziggs)

All Day Tay Tay4 votes

had a game of all for 1 where my team was ashe and the enemy was heimer. I rushed banner and hilarity ensued

50000000000000001 votes

I get it often in ARAM too, especially when the enemy team have a bunch of artillery mages.

All Day Tay Tay1 votes

https://youtu.be/0PTRKR0lSTU?t=2m27s heres a vid i uploaded from that game its old, we still had blue trink, but its still funny after all this time go to 2:26 about

The Deckowner4 votes

imminity to physical damage will mean it is immune to tower and minion damage......

Ralanr2 votes

Last I checked it was immune to ability damage, not magic.

50000000000000003 votes

UNIQUE – PROMOTE: Greatly increases the power of a lane minion and grants it immunity to magic damage (120 second cooldown) (1200 range). http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Banner_of_Command

GULAG 4 U1 votes

holy shit it sounds busted as fuck

50000000000000001 votes

In theory Ohmwrecker sounds busted too lol

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Not everything is good in practice I guess. Just like aatrox.

Jivewolf2 votes

The reason why adc is basically a dead career is because it is SO easy to counter full ad comps. Tanks have ruled the meta for quite a long time now since they deal lodes of damage while taking virtually nothing. Tanks have so many items to choose from to counter ad item 3110 item 3143 item 3068 item 3075 item 3512 item 3025. Bannor is a full ap comp counter other than that you have 2 MR items tanks can get. Why do you think no body plays adc anymore, its all apc now.

DHBGrimReaper1 votes

{quoted}

The reason why adc is basically a dead career is because it is SO easy to counter full ad comps. Tanks have ruled the meta for quite a long time now since they deal lodes of damage while taking virtually nothing. Tanks have so many items to choose from to counter ad item 3110 item 3143 item 3068 item 3075 item 3512 item 3025. Bannor is a full ap comp counter other than that you have 2 MR items tanks can get. Why do you think no body plays adc anymore, its all apc now.

Maybe there's some diversity in bot lane now and adcs arent mandatory?

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

AD Heavy comps are the easiest comps to counter in the game. Heavy AP comps have been a thing forever.

Carrie Pigeon1 votes

Granting promoted minions immunity to physical damage would prevent several auto attack based champions the inability to kill said minion. Can you imagine a Caitlyns only way to kill a banner minion is to use her net? While the same can be argued for mages inability to kill them it's not as severe as they still have some means of dealing with said minion despite how slow it is.

Granting it protection against AOE would nerf it flat out as now it can be hit by much more abilities. Say an Annie who previously had to rely on autos and tower to kill a banner minion has access to her Q which would drastically speed up the clear time of it.

Using Banner is simply to push a side wave or push a wave against an AP champion thus allowing you to gain lane advantage as you're no longer pushed to tower by their waveclear. It's a niche item and should only be used it appropriate scenarios.

Overall damage reduction could work however it would be a weaker version against mages however stronger against ADs. Bannering the entire wave would just create a super wave that an opponent would have to drop everything and goto. Another issue with it is what would define a wave? If multiple waves of creeps showed up and are now slowly pushing as a group theres the issue as to whether only some random ones will be bannered or if the entire army will. Immunity to minion damage would just make it to where you use Banner on a minion and just watch as that solo minion clears 2-3 waves and slowly causes a massive stack of minions for you.

In my opinion immunity to magic damage is overall the best bet. On a side note it is a bit odd an item that grants 100% magic resistance gives the promoted minion MR.

50000000000000002 votes

Don't teams usually just send an ADC to clear a banner wave, instead of a mage? Likewise, if banner granted physical immunity, it would just mean a mage or tank should go to clear a banner wave. If the team has no magic damage, then it's really their fault for making a team without any magic damage. Even then, it's probably just better to have a 80% damage reduction or something.

AoE mitigation/immunity would affect more than just mages, though. It would also affect assassins, ADCs, tanks, and bruisers. While Annie would be able to clear banner minions with her Q, Ahri would be able to clear banner minions with E, and Orianna with her enhanced AA passive, Nautilus, Poppy, Lucian, Olaf, Varus, and many others would have more problems clearing it. It'll be stronger against AD champions (because right now, AD champions can just pretend it doesn't exist), but weaker against AP champions. I guess overall damage reduction is more straightforward approach.

For bannering the whole wave, I think any sort of damage reduction should go. Probably just extra HP and damage (and maybe healing them to full). It's easier for the enemies to clear, but also more impactful when not cleared. I think it's fine to just consider a group of minions close together as a wave for this purpose.

For immunity to minion damage, what would happen is pretty much what happens already: creating a giant wave that needs to be dealt with. And the counterplay remains more or less the same, except mages can also deal with the wave. This is probably a nerf, tbh.

Quepha1 votes

Physical damage would mean there would be champions with literally no way to kill the minion no matter how much time they have.

AoE damage is a much less intuitive form of classification than you would initially think as any spell capable of hitting more than one target qualifies as AoE even if it's something like Lux Q that can hit up to two targets.

Even though there are AD champions with good waveclear, that still isn't really the norm and the best waveclear for an AD champ still doesn't quite hit the level of true waveclear gods like Anivia. In cases like that, Banner of Command keeps them from efficiently stopping a push without assistance.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Damage reduction is the best option imo.

LSmaster161 votes

I say we fix this discrimination against ap champions by also making them invulnerable to physical damage and true damage! Who's with me?

XxxLumberJackxxX1 votes

Its to counter ziggs and champions like him

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I agree that damage immunity is wonky. It doesn't feel like a great mechanic, and never has to me. Takes away too much agency from the other team's mages.

But yes, I think it was originally designed to counter the SAFE wave clear of mages. It's not necessarily about the amount of wave clear, it's that ziggs/anivia/viktor can do it so safely. Making them vulnerable to physical damage makes the other team a little more vulnerable while clearing it.

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