Yasuo: Ideas for Windwall Change

Fuyu No Kitsune·Dec 20, 2015·6 votes·956 views

Yasuo is supposed to be a high skill-cap champion, so why does he have a simple instant "nullify most incoming damage" ability that really doesn't take much skill to use to great effect?

With that preface, I have a few ideas in how to change 's windwall to be more fitting his skill curve:

Give it an animation a slightly longer wind-up/cast time. This would add the need for some thought to be put in as to when he should use it, instead of it being instant, with little thought being needed to make it effective. This idea was not my own, credit here.
Make it only work one way, as the animation implies. Again, instead of him just being able to dash in and out of the animation, he would actually need to plan out where he wants to go.
Give it a limit to how much it blocks, or reduce the time it is up. Windwall can last almost an entire teamfight, if the burst is right, forcing the ranged to move into dangerous melee range (if they aren't already dead from yasuo's bursty ult). Perhaps 5 autos and abilities would be fair, still being strong, but not completely game-breaking.
Make it block his own team's abilities and attacks. While this is unlikely to happen as it might require too much planning and coordination, there is a precedent behind this with Anivia's and Jarvan's walls preventing allied champion movement as well as enemy.

Of course, doing all those would be overkill, but one or a combination could really help to balance his kit out with the rest of league. Disclaimer: no, I didn't just face a Yasuo and came to the forums to complain, just giving the ideas that I've mulled over for a while :)

Bonus round: His ult. As a support main, I find it incredibly annoying trying to keep my carries alive when he ults, because he can't be interrupted by being knocked away, stunned, etc. The lack of counter is incredibly frustrating. I feel that he should be able to be interrupted, breaking the knockup/stun component, but maybe letting the damage finish so it wouldn't make him essentially useless.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

23 Comments

IronwallJacksonDec 20, 20154 votes

These are very nice ideas that have been bounced around since Yasuo became a thing. Sadly, time has not made these ideas any better. Most of them have significant flaws, so I'll give you the short version of why.

Yasuo's skillcap has absolutely nothing to do with how that sort of ablity works. Tryndamere's Undying Rage, Fiora's Riposte, Yi's Alpha Strike, Braum's Unbreakable, Sivir's Spell Shield; none of these abilities have windup times. Know why? Because they're meant to save your skin in the heat of a fight. Delaying this sort of ability makes it significantly weaker. No.
This one is the least objectionable one, but also does the least for the abilities power, and thus would do very little to it. Not only does Windwall not need to be toned down, but even if it was, this is not the way to do so.
The potential impact of Yasuo's W is where a significant portion of where his budget has gone. It allows him to have a fallback pattern in case his laning goes to shit, and thus not have him be useless in teamfights. If you give the wall damage limitations, then you've made it pretty well useless in a lot of cases. It would die almost instant to Lucian's, MF's, and Syndra's ult, not to mention things are simple as Ziggs's Minefield. Windwall is not meant to be an ablative shield; it's a damage nullifier. Because of that, lowering how long it stays up could allow it to still block big abilities, but still render it a lot less useful. This is a place to potentially hit its power (that doesn't need to be hit), but the time lowered would have to be pretty small to let it still be an effective ability.
Anivia's and Jarvan's abilties create terrain. Windwall is not a terrain construct. These spells are wholly distinct and thus comparisons and precedents do not apply. The abilities that are mechanically closest to Windwall are Unbreakable and Riposte. You don't see them blocking ally abilities or attacks do you? No, of course not, because something that disruptive would have to be balanced by some truly earth-shattering power. Just no.

Lastly, you can interrupt Yasuo's ult. Use your stuns, knockups, what have you during the ult animation and it stops. Also, it's not an ability that's meant to have a whole lot of counterplay. It already has limited use because of the airborne requirement; that's where the counterplay is.

Dar RaksadaDec 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

These are very nice ideas that have been bounced around since Yasuo became a thing. Sadly, time has not made these ideas any better. Most of them have significant flaws, so I'll give you the short version of why.

Yasuo's skillcap has absolutely nothing to do with how that sort of ablity works. Tryndamere's Undying Rage, Fiora's Riposte, Yi's Alpha Strike, Braum's Unbreakable, Sivir's Spell Shield; none of these abilities have windup times. Know why? Because they're meant to save your skin in the heat of a fight. Delaying this sort of ability makes it significantly weaker. No.

This one is the least objectionable one, but also does the least for the abilities power, and thus would do very little to it. Not only does Windwall not need to be toned down, but even if it was, this is not the way to do so.

The potential impact of Yasuo's W is where a significant portion of where his budget has gone. It allows him to have a fallback pattern in case his laning goes to shit, and thus not have him be useless in teamfights. If you give the wall damage limitations, then you've made it pretty well useless in a lot of cases. It would die almost instant to Lucian's, MF's, and Syndra's ult, not to mention things are simple as Ziggs's Minefield. Windwall is not meant to be an ablative shield; it's a damage nullifier. Because of that, lowering how long it stays up could allow it to still block big abilities, but still render it a lot less useful. This is a place to potentially hit its power (that doesn't need to be hit), but the time lowered would have to be pretty small to let it still be an effective ability.

Anivia's and Jarvan's abilties create terrain. Windwall is not a terrain construct. These spells are wholly distinct and thus comparisons and precedents do not apply. The abilities that are mechanically closest to Windwall are Unbreakable and Riposte. You don't see them blocking ally abilities or attacks do you? No, of course not, because something that disruptive would have to be balanced by some truly earth-shattering power. Just no.

Lastly, you can interrupt Yasuo's ult. Use your stuns, knockups, what have you during the ult animation and it stops. Also, it's not an ability that's meant to have a whole lot of counterplay. It already has limited use because of the airborne requirement; that's where the counterplay is.

Actually, fiora has a short, but noticable cast time which causes funny interactions sometimes, such as parrying while being knocked back by a lee sin ult/stunned by a tf gold card.

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 21, 20151 votes

Ah yeah, I've definitely seen that strange interaction before. I had a friend playing fiora and was super confused as to what happened.

Sinister AnubisDec 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dr9AiiAu,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-12-20T23:22:50.741+0000)

Actually, fiora has a short, but noticable cast time which causes funny interactions sometimes, such as parrying while being knocked back by a lee sin ult/stunned by a tf gold card.

Its called a invulnerability frame. Fizz and vlad both of it too. but less noticeable.

NekusenDec 20, 20152 votes

Something i've been saying, making his windwall work kinda like a reverse Jayce E, so windwall will only reduce the damage incoming missiles do, and perhaps slow said missiles instead of completely denying them.

i think that would make matches with him way more interesting.

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 20, 20151 votes

I like that idea too, even if it's a large amount of damage reduction, like 80% or so. At least something is happening then.

DunkinNoobsDec 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fuyu No Kitsune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dr9AiiAu,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-12-20T20:13:52.772+0000)

I would think many would agree that with the current preseason masteries, he is broken,

And we immediately know you have no idea what you're talking about just from this line. Yasuo's winrate is down 5%, (50%-45%), since preseason started and his playrate is also down by a third (15%-10%). He literally sucks so much in high elo right now that I don't even want to play him as a Yasuo main and I cringe whenever someone else on my team picks him. Yasuo is the weakest he's been since they cut his nuts off in 4.18. I know it's hard to believe when he hasn't gotten any direct nerfs, but for a champion that is so utterly item reliant, nerfing the items is basically nerfing the champion. And Yasuo's 2 main items have been nerfed and Shiv has been gutted.

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 20, 20151 votes

And we immediately know you are a douchebag.

DunkinNoobsDec 21, 20152 votes

At least I don't go around complaining about underpowered champions. We get it, you don't play Yasuo and know nothing about him; how about you actually do some research before coming in here so your opinion is actually worth something. Your entire premise is based on ignorance, demonstrably wrong, and thus everything that follows is wrong by extension.

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 21, 20151 votes

You continue to make my statement true, that you are a douchebag. It's not in what you said, it's in how you said it. No need to insult someone's intelligence just because you disagree.

DunkinNoobsDec 21, 20151 votes

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that you're definitively wrong by every metric we have available to us. My opinion is backed by both personal experience and data. Your opinion has no basis in either. This isn't an argument; your ignorance is not equal to my knowledge. If I'm a douchebag for saying that out loud, then so be it.

Spicy RiceDec 27, 20151 votes

Quite honestly, you are the one being a douche. The guy is giving you a valid arguement backed by his pwrsonal experience, and you insulted him "just because you disagree".

NekusenDec 20, 20152 votes

winrates are irrelevant in 5v5 games, the important things are pickrate and banrate.

it's easy, people just don't want Yasuos in their game.

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 21, 20151 votes

Amen lol. This is what I had against vayne for the longest time. In her case, I think she's been fine in balance overall (maybe minor tweaks at most), but just HATE seeing her every. darn. game. In fact, I hate seeing any champion in basically every game because they're strong or super popular--variation is enjoyable in a game with so many champion options.

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 20, 20151 votes

InB4 Yasuo mains downvote and flame.

IronwallJacksonDec 20, 20151 votes

Now you're just baiting it. Bad ideas get downvoted regardless, but you're likely to get all kinds of support because of the anti-yasuo sentiment that permeates the boards.

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 20, 20151 votes

Nah, I'm more making a statement about yasuo mains :P Ok fine, it's more riven mains that are like that.

Alright, I'm only being half serious--have I insulted enough people yet?

Chef ShaefDec 20, 20151 votes

You can qss his ult so try buying a crucible if you're a support main

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 21, 20151 votes

Fair enough--good suggestion. I had never had success with qss when I was adc against him, but just because I tend to forget about actives and time them poorly doesn't mean they don't work! :D

Chef ShaefDec 21, 20151 votes

Yeah having actives on an adc is hard cuz you have to worry about so many micro things like kiting and cooldowns and such, but if your sole job as the support is to peel it will probably make it easy for you to remember.

Sinister AnubisDec 21, 20151 votes

his windwall is find like seriously its alrdy on a high cooldown and just because you don't like playing champions that can abuse his windwall aka vel'koz Malzahar Azir hell even lux's ulti or kayle doesn't mean he should be changed to accommodate your play style/champions you choose to play agenst. Oh did i forget swain and karthus too ya i guess i did. Please learn other champions and stop bitching k thanks.

Fuyu No KitsuneDec 21, 20151 votes

I'm not complaining--I haven't even played against a yasuo in a while as I said. These are just ideas for changes, brought up for discussion.

In other news, there are much nicer ways to say what you said. Man, the community in the forums is almost worse than in-game.

Sinister AnubisDec 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fuyu No Kitsune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dr9AiiAu,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-12-21T00:47:49.006+0000)

I'm not complaining--I haven't even played against a yasuo in a while as I said. These are just ideas for changes, brought up for discussion.

In other news, there are much nicer ways to say what you said. Man, the community in the forums is almost worse than in-game.

Sorry if i come of rude i browse the forums a lot and i'm just really tired of reading yasuo op/broken threads when he is currently fine right now possible on the under powered side. I use to main hi on release but now i'm just sick of the nerfs and people none stop complaining about him. Kalista is getting the same treatment same with kha its just really annoying people complain so much riot is forced to change a champion design because people just refuse to play around it.