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Ardent Censer

Hupsis·May 21, 2015·4 votes·1,297 views

Ardent Censer in its current state is rather disappointing/boring for most supports when it comes to it's unique passive. Stat wise it's very cost efficient and all but the gameplay aspect of it is very boring. Even with the changes coming to it won't make it any more interesting.

Currently passive gives 25% attack speed for 6 seconds on allied targets PBE: passive gives 15% attack speed and 30 magic damage per auto attack for 6 seconds on allied targets

Sure it's going to be more impactful after the changes but it still won't make your team go "wooh, nice play with that Ardent Cencer".

In my opinion it's important to take into account the fun factor when making changes to an item. Instead of small buffs to damage and attack speed which you hardly notice, there should be more significant boosts that the player (and the team) can notice and feel he/she has been impactful.

#For example: - 60 sec cooldown - passive is now an active which increases the power of your next shield/heal ability or summoner spell by 50 (+10% of target missing health) and applies a 75% attack speed buff on target for 3 attacks. Power of aoe heals and shields is increased by 30 (+6% of missing health) and grants 40% attack speed instead of 75%. (numbers not balanced)

OR

passively gathers up to 3 stacks from which one will be consumed when casting a shield or a heal increasing its effectiveness by 25 (+5% targets missing health) and giving a 75% attack speed boost for 3 attacks. Aoe shields/heals apply the buff prioritizing low health allied champions. A single stack generates in 30 seconds.

Either of these would certainly be a significant change from the subtle buffs cencer currently offers. The team would most likely now notice the effect and you could feel better for using it at the right moments.

42 Comments

SonasaurousMay 21, 20152 votes

Ardent Censor is honestly my favorite support item in the game...mostly because I play Sona and that item was basically made for her AoE W, thus applying the passive to all of her teammates in range. I mean, having 4 teammates with increased attack speed for 6 seconds is really amazing for teamfights, especially when you have both a melee and an ADC spamming their AAs.

Continuing on the Sona point, I think the PBE changes to this item will give her heals her Q buff as well with the additional magic damage per AA, which is certainly a buff to Sona...which likely means a nerf incoming for her. Regardless, I'm okay with the proposed changes, as I think it will still make the item viable to teamfights.

As for your proposed changes, I think it would be like how Cinderhulk was to tanks if Ardent Censor buffed the heals and shields, even if it was an active and not a passive. Then, like with Cinderhulk, the supports would get nerfed before the item, and supports are already in a pretty mediocre place right now.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

My example was only that. An example :P

It doesn't have to increase healing/shielding. It could even be a purely offensive buff (like it currently is). The main point is that it could be more impactful if it had a cooldown.

SonasaurousMay 21, 20151 votes

I think the very nature of the item to be attached to champion heals and shields makes it very difficult to make it an active item (this just crossed my mind, does Ardent Censor work with items that give heals and shields? I never thought about that before...).

However, maybe if it had a passive cooldown, like how the Mobi boots work, that could work. Because a 6 second active with 10 second cooldown on Sona's W (not including cooldown reduction) basically means that the passive is always active. XD

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

Yes it works with items. I also wouldn't say it's difficult to make it work as an active. Just think of Karma using mantra + e. First you use the active and then you use a heal/shield to give it an extra oomph.

Passive cooldown could be an option. However it would mean that you don't have control over when using the passive. This would be especially troublesome if the cooldown was more than 10 seconds. And if the cooldown was 10 seconds or less I'd be afraid that the power of the passive would be too minimal to be noticed (like it currently is).

SonasaurousMay 21, 20151 votes

But I think if it were an active, it would have to be applied before the heal/shield, because otherwise you pop a heal/shield and then the item to boost the heal/shield effects, but the time you activated the item the boost would only be effective for about half the duration of the heal/shield...

Or perhaps if it were a passive cooldown like Frostfang, in which the effects apply to a certain number of allies within a given amount of time before going on a cooldown.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

Interesting ideas. I like the idea of Frostfang like cooldown.

What if it charged up to 3 stacks (recharging a stack every 20-30 sec) and using a single target shield/heal uses up one stack. Using an aoe shield/heal will consume all stacks but only give the buff up to 3 people (prioritizing low health targets). Each stack increases shielding/healing by 30+6% missing health) and gives 50% attack speed for 3 attacks.

Lots of possiblities :)

SonasaurousMay 21, 20151 votes

The only thing I would change is the bonus attack speed for # of attacks to # of seconds, simply because the whole point of more attack speed is to fire off more AAs per second, so restricting it to a # of attacks until it wears off seems counter-productive.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

Jayce and Sivir disagree :P

But it's really about how powerful the bonus is. If it's an attack speed buff for x seconds the bonus might be lesser than if the buff is for x amount of attacks. I just give some random numbers from my mind and they might be too weak or too strong.

But I'd be fine with either one of those options if the power is significant enough to make it noticable.

SonasaurousMay 21, 20151 votes

Lol, but Jayce and Sivir are certainly not representative of the entire ADC group, which is typically what this item is targetting. XD Ashe, Caitlyn, Jinx, Lucian and Vayne would surely disagree with them.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

As I said: numbers aren't balanced. 3 attacks with 100% attack speed is probably better than 15% attack speed for 6 seconds in some situations. Smaller numbers usually tend to feel insignificant even though they might have a lot of "hidden power".

SohleksMay 21, 20152 votes

Your idea is definitely more fun.

I think the way Riot went just might make the item good particularly on some like

Vayne + item 3153 + item 3504

or Warwick

:o

but shrug

The problem with your huge but short attack speed boost is that it'd be very powerful in certain situations, and yet wasted in some late game scenarios if it blows them over AS cap. The shield enhance thing sounds cool, but if it simply boosts every shield it needs to be weak to not be OP, or it could be an active like a Karma E mantra; that might be pretty cool.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

Yeah I agree. Late game if the adc has a lot of attack speed it could be wasted on them. But you could always use it on the jungler or top laner.

And yes they main idea is to make the passive have a cooldown to allow it to feel more impactful. Making it an active would definately remind me of Karma's mantra. This was the intention :)

-Karma main

CoolKnightSTMay 21, 20152 votes

Riot attempts to create more support items without an active. Adding an active is aways a solution.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

I know that many support players would probably be annoyed to get yet another active item. However I have to defend active items by saying that they allow much more interesting gameplay than passive items.

Of course the passive could have a cooldown but that would mean the player loses control over the item to a certain extent. But I'm sure there's a solution to make it an interesting passive as well if the community really wants it to remain as a passive bonus.

BastionKrossMay 21, 20151 votes

Sure it's going to be more impactful after the changes but it still won't make your team go "wooh, nice play with that Ardent Cencer".

This is more of an issue with the support role than the item. Supports bring all this utility to a teamfight, but it's generally not flashy. Amumu landing a bandage and ulting the entire enemy team is flashy. Leblanc getting a quadra kill is flashy. Draven murdering people in three hits is flashy. Soraka silencing four of the enemy team is "meh". Morgana saving her ally with a well timed black shield is "meh". Janna peeling like a boss for her squishies is "meh".

Utility is generally very impactful, but it's difficult to notice it sometimes. Unless you play Thresh , then you get the best of both worlds.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

Supports are capable of doing flashy plays.

Landing hooks, shielding/healing aoe ults, blocking projectiles, etc. They aren't doing flashy things to kill the enemy. They do it to protect their allies or allow them to get a kill.

The feeling when you are able to save a team mate is awesome. And sometimes even the team will be amazed (but only sometimes).

DeliothMay 22, 20151 votes

Janna is one of those super flashy supports though, with her ult to launch one of them into the middle of your team while launching the rest of their team away. And oh by the way putting everyone's health bars up to full too. But it is only on her ult, the rest does kinda go 'meh'.

Reaper SorakaMay 21, 20151 votes

I'm really not interested in more use-items on my supporting. supp item/ss/mikael's/locket is already too many edit: oh and sweeper.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

I was thinking of that while coming up with the idea. It's still better imo than having a 60 sec cd passive which you have no control over (this might however work somehow) or that you are giving constant small unnoticable buffs to your team.

At least it wouldn't be targetable active :P

Reaper SorakaMay 21, 20151 votes

Make it like Luden's Echo or Stattik Shiv and I'm all for it! :D

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

I think that kind of mechanic works better with damage items :P When you get 100 stacks you can just throw a spell/auto attack for more damage. Shields however need to be timed right and you don't necessarily want to wait for those 30 points you need to get to 100 when you need the shield now. Or you end up wasting the buff on someone you didn't want to waste it on and have to collect 100 stacks again.

I dunno... could be interesting though.

VenowolfMay 21, 20151 votes

For me need something like this, because is a Censor...

Active:

UNIQUE: Places a Stealth Ward at target location that lasts for 180 seconds. 180 seconds cooldown (~1000 cast range).

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

We have sightstone and trinket wards tho.

VenowolfMay 22, 20151 votes

u can use red trinket too, sightstone doesn't have 1000 range... its a very safe ward every 180s

DeliothMay 22, 20151 votes

.... Censer... as in something that you burn incense in... not sensors.

plantersMay 21, 20151 votes

Or they could just add like 30-40 more ap to the item. I honestly buy it all the time, but considering that supports scale with AP and the item gives almost no AP it would be very beneficial to just give it more raw ap. This would push it more into the mage item class as a down side, but it would give more scaling to champions who really need it.

HupsisMay 21, 20151 votes

More AP would mean that the price would have to go up. I'm not sure that's the best option :S

I think Ardent Cencer is in a relatively good spot currently powerwise. It's just that the power is implemented really poorly in a way so that the player using it doesn't feel he/she's being impactful (even though he/she is being impactful). The power on the passive is so distributed that it's hardly noticable.

chipndip1May 21, 20151 votes

If Ardent becomes more powerful, then Ardent costs more than it does. I'd rather it stay where it is in the mid 2k's. Also, why make it an active? Ardent does best when supports are using a good deal of shields and heals. The more shields and heals you toss out, the more Ardent does for everyone around you. I get my kicks when I use Sona and heal teammates that are taking turrets so they knock it down faster, and I get my kicks when my last-minute Censer-boosted heal barely saves an ally. That's all I need.

Long story short is that unless you're an all-in support, your role in the game isn't going to be all that big and flashy. Ardent works fine as it is now, and if we want more people using it, they should make more supports that use heals and shields.

HupsisMay 22, 20151 votes

and I get my kicks when my last-minute Censer-boosted heal barely saves an ally

Cencer doesn't improve healing currently.

My suggestion isn't meant to make Ardent Cencer more powerful since it already is very powerful. The idea is to make the power FEEL more impactful without actually buffing it (although it might seem that way because I don't know what the numbers would look like if balanced correctly). Instead of giving constant small buffs you would have a cooldown and give a bit larger buff.

It doesn't even have to be an active. A passive version could still be more interesting than just giving it at every cast. Such as stacking system where it can stack up to 3 charges and each shield/heal used will use a stack to improve the effect. There are numerous ways to make it more interesting than it currently is.

chipndip1May 22, 20151 votes

Given they barely lived, it means the boosted AA speed is a significant factor in why they lived that instance (or at least I can assume that). The point is that it makes my allies do more damage while being healed, which is stronger in team fights than people give credit for.

Giving the thing a large, active boost would actually make it WAY stronger than it is now. A few seconds of "OMG DMG" is stronger than a longer stretch of "eh, a boost" because it's an extreme spike in burst damage. Using it on an adc or top laner would make them crazy bursty for the time it's on them. Besides, part of the appeal of the Censer is that it isn't yet ANOTHER active support item. There's already too many of those. As for stacks...don't we already have a good deal of champs and items that use stacks?

HupsisMay 22, 20151 votes

Part of my suggestion also was to increase the shield/healing amount to make the offensive part of the buff a bit weaker. 75% attack speed for 3 attacks isn't as powerful of a buff for offense purposes (but it's more noticable) as 25% attack speed buff for 6 seconds. But I guess it depends on the situation.

As for stacks...don't we already have a good deal of champs and items that use stacks?

I don't think so. We have item 3303 item 3098 item 3092 item 3302 item 3097 item 3401 item 3087 item 3285 and that's about it. And supports usually tend to only have either spellthief's edge or relic shield (or their upgraded versions).

chipndip1May 22, 20151 votes

I said champs and items. Items aren't so much, but a lot of champs work with stacks already, and those that don't tend to be reworked into champ that do. >_>

The point of me speaking is that you're almost giving someone a 100% increase in attack speed. That literally can delete a squishy target with such a huge boost if it's put on an adc. I think it's better to just have the passive tied to heals, rather than making it an active while adding a new passive to heals and shields, making them stronger.

I think you're trying to fix a problem that isn't there. Plenty of champs use shields, and with that said, plenty of champs can apply the censer to people. Best ones are people that can shield and heal multiple people at once, or heal/shield someone in rapid succession, but Ardent Censer is in a decent spot for those that want to use it.

HupsisMay 23, 20151 votes

Nobody ever said it wasn't in a decent spot (powerwise).** The passive just feels very boring.**

"Applying a shield/heal gives some attack speed and damage to target ally". You give them the buff in any case whenever healing or shielding so you can just forget about the item. With a cooldown though you would have to choose the best scenarios to use the buff to get the best and noticable results.

Again I'm going to say that the numbers I presented are not balanced. I'm sure there's a magical combination of offense/defense values that would make the buff not too powerful nor weak.

Also I don't think there are any healing/shielding champions who have stacking abilities.

chipndip1May 23, 20151 votes

Well, Bard stacks chimes...and he heals, but it isn't as noticeable.

Regardless, we don't need to make every item be some sort of active. Imagine if everything of value to each role had an active to it? Supports have SS, Locket, and Crucible to worry about using in team fights already. Why make EVEN MORE?

It's just unnecessary.

HupsisMay 23, 20151 votes

Regardless, we don't need to make every item be some sort of active.

No we don't :D That's why I suggested the thing about it being a passive that has stacks and consumed them. You wouldn't active the item cause the stacks would be automatically used when you use a shield or a heal.

You are missing the point I'm trying to make. It's not about making it an active item. It's about making the passive feel more impactful whether it be through making the item passive work with stacks or giving the passive a single cooldown or even making it an active.

The change suggested in the main post was only an example.

SwiftKitten88May 22, 20151 votes

item 3504 has been BIS for support Lux since its release. with 40% cdr lux and keep up the 25% attack speed buff on the shield on her entire team permanently during teamfights

lux also has great poke in lane as support. this rework does't change much imo. might even make it slightly weaker

HupsisMay 22, 20151 votes

Nobody is denying its power. The idea isn't to nerf the passive, it's to make it more interesting.

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