Traditional Karma

Hupsis·Mar 21, 2017·14 votes·10,029 views

First off, good job splash art team for giving Karma the splashes she deserves!

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XIdyL0V_WzY/WNGDDWBMw-I/AAAAAAAAgZU/cyrO1QaPyhE2k0wly4FgWBPCY0PDzNk3ACLcB/s1600/Karma_Splash_3.jpg

Amazing!

However this image reminds me of an "incident" that happened a long time ago...

You see when Karma received her rework, her traditional skin was quite different from what it currently is. This traditional Karma splash reminds me more of the traditional Karma that was supposed to be the traditional Karma after the rework. However due to few people complaining on the formus how the dress didn't match the old traditional Karma, the skin unfortunately got changed to be less impressive and is that even to this date.

Here's a picture comparing the changes that got through. http://imgur.com/a/Ebjgv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIqvAfsx-MU

Real shame if you ask me (a traditional Karma skin owner). The new splash is amazing and the only thing bothering me still is the change that happened more than 3 years ago.

#Suggestion

So, if Riot is reading this and they still have access to the traditional Karma skin files, could they give us an option to choose between the models before the game starts (similar to the chroma selection)? I'm not expecting a response of any kind but hey, it's worth a shot... A toggle feature would also work.

Poll is just to gather opinions on which skin version is more popular. The goal is not to replace the existing traditional skin but to add the skin version that got removed as an alternative skin option.

53 Comments

Pisces StarChildMar 22, 20177 votes

I think for traditional both options look appealing. However, I lean more towards the full dress because this skin is meant to be her "nostalgic" skin, a homage to what/who she was before she got a visual upgrade. Also, like someone stated, I like a bit of variety to her skins, and I like that she still has full dress options to differentiate from her now default looks, which has her showing some skin (legs). If only Riot would work on giving her a new walking animation I'd say it would help with the issue in which she looks like she's hopping in her dress skins. Having the option to toggle for the skin would be nice too. I'm glad they gave the kimono skin the full dress though. The "updated" look for that skin when it was first revealed was just...something else entirely that I'd like to forget it ever existed xD

KinjishiMar 22, 20171 votes

Agreed

HupsisMar 22, 20172 votes

I'm glad they changed the sakura skin. The traditional skin was awesome with the open dress though.

I'm glad people are supporting the toggle option :)

OverpoweredSoapMar 21, 20175 votes

I was actually one of the people complaining about the dress being open when her rework was first revealed and I can honestly say it looks a lot worse closed.

Especially with her walking animation.

HupsisMar 21, 20171 votes

Yeah right. I know why people did complain but tbh I think most of those who complained didn't know what they signed up for...

Riot didn't give us a poll. They just made the change and pushed it live and forgot it without listening the community. To me it seemed the vocal minority won :/

Bulimia VomitMar 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I was actually one of the people complaining about the dress being open when her rework was first revealed and I can honestly say it looks a lot worse closed.

Especially with her walking animation.

I was too, but her little hobble she does is disgusting. Not to mention that her legs clip through the dress and the dress itself distorts a crap ton whenever you move. I honestly wouldn't mind if it was reverted, but preferably I just wish they would give her better animations and her twin dragons.

GapyboMar 21, 20174 votes

Same happened to sakura back then. Now we are stuck with horrible skirt animation. I hoped they would come back to it later on considering how rushed and sloppy it is but oh well...

HupsisMar 21, 20172 votes

Seems unlikely anything will happen :/

If someday Riot decides to improve her base animations, maybe they will also fix the sakura and traditional skins.

HigeMar 21, 20172 votes

that's what happens when people cry about change for the sake of nostalgia, her dress was closed in order to appease the pitch forks about how much karma was changed but in the end it simply looks worse

KeysheMar 22, 20176 votes

I have to disagree with you, it looks worse NOT because people wanted a skin that looked like she used to, but that Riot rushed it. It's on Riot not the fans.

HigeMar 22, 20171 votes

Sorry but there's no way for a completely closed dress to work with her new model but fans wouldn't rest until she had a full tamale dress because she used to have one, the skin with the open legs looked beautiful on the new model yet it irked everyone because Karma lost her full dress.

Not to mention the fact that this was a traditional skin, there never was a pipeline where traditional skins were considered hence why they stopped making them, a proper skin for a newly reworked champion would delay release at least 2 or 3 more months so no, it was only rushed because people would complain even harder if they released her without a traditional skin, they squeeze in the right amount of time for a product that wouldn't make them any kind of revenue yet Karma nostalgic fans weren't happy about it so they made it even worse.

KeysheMar 22, 20174 votes

Doesn't matter on time, it's quality and time management is on Riot to figure out, not fans. I don't know why you say "Sorry but there's no way for a completely closed dress", as it's clear to everyone it's not a close one even now :P Your anger is greatly missed placed. The people who wanted it to really look like 'traditional skin' are not in the wrong, nor is it on them to know what Riot can/can't do. That's design teams job. ect.

It was Riot's idea for the skin. It's on them if they couldn't deliver and on them, if 'fail' in 'trying'. They are the ones who need to know what they can and can not do.

HigeMar 22, 20171 votes

no anger whatsoever but Karma has been a champion that has historically been pushed and pulled by the community for far too long, there are some things that need to be said and I'm just going for it.

As far as traditional skins, yes, they are in the wrong as it has been proven that such type of skins are not needed nor wanted

KeysheMar 22, 20172 votes

I find that odd, as with your post you heavy criticize a group, and place blame on them for the 'failing of a skin....' for asking what it was designed for. Oddly negative all the way through and pointed no? Even now in this one, your still very hung up on the Karma 'fans'. It's certainly not neutral or calm toned. What is it then, if not anger? Strong annoyance? :/

Were has it been proven?

HigeMar 22, 20171 votes

Strong annoyance would be correct, from trying to reason with most Karma fans and finding this incredible wall of utter stubbornness even while being backed up with both her old and new lore, visuals and kits

Traditional skins were proven unnecessary when they stopped making them, although there was also a statement from the team when Sion got reworked and there was no traditional skin there, the reason was that the champion wasn't supposed to be changed but refined into what he/she was supposed to look all along and doing traditional skins often ended up being a disaster (Trundle)

KeysheMar 23, 20172 votes

What's confusing is why you're separating Karma FROM her fans so much. I would think an old character design is relevant entirely and exclusively BECAUSE of its fans. And unlike any other kind of skin or part of a champion in general (where all factors need to be taken into consideration) a Traditional Skin literally only even exists to appease those fans. So why would any other perspective even matter? Any complaints as to how stubborn old Karma's fans might be are inherently off-topic when discussing this skin... because it was made for them and them alone.

How does Riot ceasing to do something prove it unnecessary? Riot isn't perfect and can make bad decisions; they have LOTS of critics even within their actual player-base.

Every single time Riot majorly reworks a champion I see a number of people asking for traditional skins, EVEN with Sion. Whatever Sion was "supposed to look like all along" has nothing to do with the obvious visual redesign he got. His new look may well be "meant to be" but it's still super different from how he used to look.

This last part's a bit of a tangent but...

It's even weirder considering they obviously DO sort of get that Traditional Skins are important and yet want to pretend they don't; Captain Gangplank, despite some differences, is more or less true to the original, and like with the Traditional Skins they let you earn it for free except... you can still buy it. High Noon Jhin is pretty much just the original concept that became Jhin turned into a skin, just like with Traditional Lee Sin (the original Traditional skin)... both of which are available to buy. It's this weird shame thing that's the problem, where traditional skins have next to no actual availability after the initial giveaway. What if they were just normal skins, instead of Riot insisting on rejecting and burying them all the time? I bet plenty of people would love to buy Traditional Karma, or Traditional Sejuani; none of their other skins are like them.

HigeMar 23, 20171 votes

At this point it's more than obvious that we disagree but I'll try to frame my opinion to the best of my ability.

While it is true that traditional skins were made for the fans in order to band aid their rage for the big change that a rework inquires into, it's not the only factor that goes into consideration for the creation of it, as you said it yourself a traditional skin is but a memento of what the champion looked like, whether Riot wants to keep it in their game or not is pretty much up to them and not the fans (who will always have conflicting opinions)

Skins are subjected to alternate fantasies that depict a character on a different shade while retaining the same archetype, when you take a look at traditional skins, you see that they barely fit that concept anymore, even coming up with a different name for them is particularly hard, Noble Karma? Yin yang Karma? it just doesn't has the impact that a regular skin tends to have and working on it to make it more awesome would stray away from her old look, open dress vs closed dress is pretty much the constrain that Riot found when exploring this type of skin, it DOES look better with an open dress but that's not how old karma looked so you gotta tack it on in order to keep it true.

On Sion, they didn't want to keep the green, bone arm Arnold Schwarzenegger it simply wasn't fit for the REAL Sion to be that goofy even if there was a very good concept floating around, they pulled the switch on it because it didn't work as a skin on its own which is the opposite case of Gankplank whose traditional skin is not only an ode to his old self but also a very good skin on its own (captain as opposed to traditional) and profit is able to be made from it.

Even goofy skins like Mundo Mundo conveys something very important about a champion's character, "traditional" simply doesn't cut it and while it calms people down a teeny tiny bit, they will always, ALWAYS hate a champion rework, I say fans will always hate reworks because even for Ryze who remained almost the same had some people complaining about the changes made to him which were more than obvious on the exact same direction the original one had, just better polished.

Last but not least I'd like to say that league does a great job at staying fresh and traditional skins are simply the shackles on progress that need to be broken, current Karma is heaps better than old and this is something I've had to learn since I also complained back then about the change but now I have embraced it (reading both old and new lores helped) and I'm not as blind as to come here and post that her dress must stay closed because that's how she looked before, that skin could be AMAZING and Riot could make some revenue out of it IF fans weren't as stubborn.

KeysheMar 23, 20172 votes

You don't need point out that it's Riot's game and they can do whatever they want, but it's just as obvious that the game -- being a product -- only exists because of support from its fans. No fan approval, no game. This is a baseline of even being a business, so trying to separate what Riot "needs to do" entirely from fan opinions makes no sense.

Do the traditional skins really "barely fit that concept anymore" though? Brand, Annie, and Taliyah outright change elements for their skins, which isn't that different from Trundle going from ice to plague. In fact Blade Queen Lissandra -- like with Trundle -- is arguably a plague-themed skin when she's usually ice-themed. Other champs just get outfit swaps on skins like with Karma or Sejuani's old looks. What's the difference? And the theme names for normal skins can be just as esoteric as the ones you suggested. "Worldbreaker"? "Slayer" for post-apocalyptic punk skins? How about Ascetic Sejuani (she can resist the cold; it's in her lore), Matriarch/Enlightened Karma, Plague Jungle Trundle?

Either way who even cares if they change the name from Traditional? They don't need to hide what they are for them to work. If they look a little odd next to other skins but are still good, then so what? People won't not buy them because they have a specific word on them. You can say no one thinks Karma's old design is good and it's just nostalgia, but you can't prove that... it sounds like most of your basis is your old feelings on Karma... but you can't assume everyone is thinking like you do. I have a friend who doesn't like the new Karma design purely because it sexualizes (however mildly) the only entirely non-sexualized human character in the game at the time. (For context, he loves Miss Fortune; the Karma rework lessened diversity, which Riot seems all about now???)

The Schwarzenegger jokes were easily kept with joke lines, so those aren't an issue. But I would think a moldering, rotting nightmare zombie -- unlike the much less-grotesque new design -- would be a hit, ESPECIALLY on a character like Sion.

You're right that yes, SOME people will always complain about a rework, but that's a poor excuse for saying a rework doesn't have problems. You might feel the Ryze rework (which one??) was fine but some people think that even slight changes like shifting abilities to skillshots change the feeling of a kit, and you can't believe changing an ult from a steroid to a teleport couldn't change a kit substantially. Not all reworks are hated; everyone I know who complains about reworks like some of them. Did much of anyone complain about the Twitch rework?

You have to let go of this notion that everyone who hates a change is just part of the nostalgia swarm. I'm glad you realized you really liked the new stuff, but lots of people don't and have actual REASONS for it. The thing is, Riot has the actual right idea on this stuff in their stated intent -- that traditional skins shouldn't be a thing because the reworks should be good enough to render them unnecessary -- but at least some of their fans don't think they're delivering on that... the fact that people ask for traditional skins at all proves it.

And the thing is, if it is better to drop traditional skins moving forward... what does that have to do with this old one? It already exists. Why not just leave it how its old fans wanted it? You think the dress looks better open, but the poll in this thread is mostly split.

HigeMar 23, 20171 votes

they "hided" Gankplank's "traditional" skin because you cannot sell a product that's based off of something old to new audiences, I mean you can but then they'll be like: what is this? why did this champion looked different before?

The product needs to be able to reach as much people as possible and not the opposite, In the end you shouldn't have a product aimed at the few people who played old Karma because indirectly you're alienating new players from that experience even though, new Karma is simply a polished version of the old

SPECIALLY her because her rework was not hers alone, it was pretty much the beginning of the foundations team doing their thing, Karma isn't black and white anymore because the parallel of yin and yang on the runeterra IP is the twin dragons and the balance is represented by wearing both purple (like Syndra) and gold (like Soraka)

I understand that people liked the old design but a LOT of them haven't taken the time to read on this, they want their black and white human Karma but Karma is not human, she doesn't live in our world, she's runeterran and the costumes of that place shape her, this is brilliant lore writing and fans are trying to step on such a beautiful composition, so yes I do give Riot props for taking the right steps towards making a product awesome in spite of a FEW (if it was a majority, they would have changed it already)

What you CAN do is re purpose a skin, like Captain gankplank... if Karma were to have a memento skin it would be the one with the open dress, with new VO and she could have one of the names you mentioned, they could sell it and Karma would have a nice skin on her arsenal... but as it stands, you barely even see that skin in game, even fans aren't using it because they hate the "new" kit so they simply don't play Karma and people like me who learned how to love her, have a skin that I use from time to time and regret it when I'm in game

Concept between skin don't change either, yes taliyah might change elements but the way she works with ice is the same way she works with earth and if there were to be a magma Taliyah it would be blobs of magma being thrown around as opposed to burst of magma like elemental lux does, again, archetype remains even if the skin looks different but for traditional skins this isn't the case, Karma's green particles look incredibly out of place for example

In the end though as you said, this is mostly speculation on my part but don't deny that the other side of the coin is exactly the same, people who like old Karma think everyone hates the new one and that's simply not true either.

KeysheMar 24, 20172 votes

You can absolutely sell a product based on something old to new audiences if it stands on its own merits and is well-designed. Every skin goes on sale eventually, even the retired ones. Odd skin names don't change anything (they're everywhere) and either way Captain Gangplank itself -- as you admit -- successfully markets an old concept, and it's a clear rebrand of a traditional skin. If Riot has issues with the name "Traditional" they can easily rebrand them. It's not complicated and I doubt anyone cares which version they use. We're not REALLY talking about aiming products at anyone; we're discussing an old one with an existing audience. Didn't you yourself just criticize marketing old stuff to new people? How does existing content made years ago to appease older players alienate... anyone?

Again, Riot not jumping to make a given change proves nothing. They can make mistakes, and you know they have tons of critics. They have made plenty of posts talking about their reasons why they think a change would be BAD for the game, too, despite that fans want it. There are even clear cases of them screwing up with stuff like taking years to make standard, widely-requested features like replays and a training mode. Even the big overhaul reworks are questionable; Karma, or say Galio, were obviously rough and unpolished, so you can't say with a shred of certainty their unpopularity in general wasn't entirely due to that. Twitch's rework didn't change his kit, kept his concept entirely intact, and he went from basically never played to ultra popular overnight. Criticizing traditional skins on basis of their rare play has the same problem: It's next to impossible to even get them now, so of course you never see them.

You keep saying things like "they WILL keep the dress open" or "this is beautiful character design that the old fans are just failing to see"... but every single one of these statements is presumptuous -- mildly egotistical, even -- because, well, why are you assuming everyone feels like you do... when you know for a fact not all of them do? You might think a skin looks bad, but where's your actual basis for that? They use their abilities differently? They don't communicate something in tune with the character?

Both Sejuani versions have the same abilities and depict facts actually mentioned in her lore (she can withstand the cold, and she's a barbarian warrior), and both Trundle versions use their elements about the same way and for the same effect, and both are angry smart-asses who make cracks about smashing things. There isn't much difference between old and new Karma aside from clothes, ESPECIALLY now that with the new splashes' edited faces they're seemingly trying to re-emphasize her being Indian-esque. You don't like some specific element of this or that skin, but that's just you, and for every supposed issue, I can demonstrate either that it's not one or why normal skins still share it; your logic can be used against a lot of skins. All of the April Fools skins and many other holiday ones are silly nonsense even on totally serious characters, and Reaper Soraka totally reverses her character archetype, while the highschool or Project skins don't even fit into the world on like a basic level. (By the way the Project skins are like monstrously popular as I understand?) I can keep going, too.

Of course opinion differences go both ways, but the problem is you keep making certain, adamant statements. You're not talking like you're stating opinions, but like you're claiming fact, and you're saying them about things you can be easily countered on -- HAVE been countered on -- and don't acknowledge those flaws; instead you just keep going on new points instead of trying to defend the already criticized ones.

Worse, you've admitted that you're annoyed about something not even relevant here; old fans, running purely on nostalgia, who can't appreciate new changes. Did anyone in this thread even suggest that everyone hates new Karma? You're framing this entire discussion against a mentality that isn't even on display here; people are not screaming about new Karma. They want a piece of content meant to preserve an old, cool design, to be left as it is. I'm sure all of us like some new piece of content or redesign or another. You're talking to US, not these unreasonable fanboys it sounds like you've dealt with.

HigeMar 24, 20171 votes

instead you just keep going on new points instead of trying to defend the already criticized ones.

Because that's not the basis of discussion, I made my points clear from the first post, I won't defend them against your claims anymore simply because as I said, we disagree and that's fine, at some point this became this huge thing about me and how I see Karma fans which was never my intention to discuss but you kept bringing it up, I suggest that if you don't wanna go somewhere you stop commenting on it.

Intent based on text is hard to convey and my background is none of your business but when I make an "adamant statement" is because I have more than a bit of knowledge about visual design and my opinions are simply backed up with empirical knowledge on this field because well, surprise, I'm an artist! and as such I see every product that goes through my hands with the eye of design.

When I say that the skin looks better with the skirt opened is because it simply flows better in tandem with her animations. When I say that her particles don't match is because of color theory. If you happen to have the same knowledge and disagree then we have different views on the same subject, I see yours as long as you see mine (and refrain from making it personal...)

Either way opinion is irrelevant here, if the majority of the world population claimed the earth was flat it would still be wrong, period. The client isn't always right.

KeysheMar 25, 20172 votes

The basis was you complaining about Karma fanboys who weren't even posting or being discussed in the thread, and then I said why I thought that was wrong. You might not care what I think, but if you just say your piece without addressing anyone's thoughts on it then you might as well not respond to them. In this discussion I have laid out counterpoints to your points, and you've basically ignored all of those and made new ones. Us disagreeing does not suggest our points are equal; you haven't really defended yourself at all. If you make a statement someone disagrees with they'll tell you why they think it's wrong. It's fairly disrespectful to just pretend you don't have to justify yourself; if you don't want to then you basically shouldn't even reply.

Continually saying you disagree or that you're right is meaningless. You may well have great relevant experience, but that has no bearing on how well-made your points are. Just because you are experienced with this topic, does not mean you should go and act adamant without justifying yourself. So you know the subject, and you're certain you're right... okay, why? Why do you disagree, and what makes you so certain? Failing to say so at all -- while still trying to make claims, and then citing your experience afterward -- is an argument from authority. In essence, "Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else."

Just because you're an artist does not make you dead wrong about art, nor does it with me (I am also an artist). I could be the person who discovered gravity and I'd still have to prove and explain it to everyone. If I didn't want to... then what business would I have telling everyone gravity exists, and what use would it be?

Axle the BeastMar 25, 20171 votes

I mean... to use your own logic against you (to show you how bad it feels to even have it said to you; hopefully you realize you shouldn't do it)...

I'm a professional writer and editor. I've worked as head editor on websites for multiple years and have extensive experience with argument structure, not to mention lots of casual experience at the same in forum debates (particularly since I was a moderator and administrator on SEVERAL message boards). I've even been nominated and voted best debater in little forum awards, for whatever that counts. My best friend doesn't like debating with me because "he usually has to admit I'm right".

Your points are badly made, and Keyshe's aren't. I also agree with them, so there's some bias there, but I'm also equally experienced at objectivity; your points are bad irregardless of their correctness. You are simply not making a good case for what you're saying. Even if you were the person trying to tell everyone the earth was round, of course none of the flat-earthers would listen to you with the argument structure you have.

I'm honestly saying that more for your benefit than anything else.

HigeMar 25, 20171 votes

Thanks for the sentiment! as I said though me knowing about design simply helps me make bold statements, nothing else, it doesn't even account for being right or wrong but when you know what you're talking about you have the confidence to say it, Keyshe herself said she was an artist too but that doesn't make me agree with her ._.

Again, I'm not gonna sit down here to discuss about how discussions work, I expect at least to stay on topic

HigeMar 25, 20171 votes

oh but they were posting and voting! as you can see now, the closed dress option is winning! what a surprise.

But ok, I'm not defending my points and I'm a bad human being or whatever and Karma fanboys don't enter Karma threads and they don't skew the options that traditional skins have, yep...

For the record, I can act adamant if I feel like it, for starters I have no idea who I'm talking with, you've said countless times that I'm not treating with a Karma fanboy from gameplay and while that is reassuring you simply reinforce my point about Karma threads being plagued with stubbornness

the punchline here is simple, I don't feel like proving anything to anyone online, if you care about my meaningless words on the void that is the internet, then you post, if you don't, then you don't post!

But since you seem to care SO much about what I have to say on the subject... I'll try to play by your rules, this time.

The traditional skin doesn't work because it looks nothing like how Karma used to look, whether open or closed, they simply slapped the dress on her new model and called it a day, you agreed on this, you said it yourself and blamed Riot for rushing it, I say that it's OBVIOUSLY not Riot fault and they did what they could to make right by old Karma and then you asked me why, to which I answered:

Simply because they stopped making traditional skins

Then you said that Riot isn't perfect and that you felt like it was the wrong call mentioning that they did captain GP and whatnot, at this point I was pretty over the whole thing because you kept talking about my way of discussing and addressing the fans, my point is that I don't talk to overtly controlling people, it's pretty much a waste of time but ok, let's say that we stayed on topic, my answer to that would be:

Captain Gankplank IS the right way to do a traditional skin and the difference between that one and the other traditional skins is stark, why? this is mostly conjecture but if we were to see the data on skin usage I would bet that Captain GP was better received and is used more often than Traditional Karma, but we don't have that kind of data so I'll resort to say that Gankgplank's skin is a lot more polished and the proof of that is:

They kept it on the store even after giving it away when they reworked him! if the skin would have turned out bad, it would have been thrown into the vault

Now you say that if they were to allow the public to buy traditional Karma it would work the same way than GP's but that I must doubt, why? because traditional Karma is VERY unpolished and it would represent little to no profit

Again, WHY is traditional Karma unpolished? mainly because it was made like 4 years ago, it has her old VO that's like 10 lines long, it doesn't have her original color particles (white with a very washed out tone of purple) and the dress...

I remember when Karma was reworked, a lot of people asked why they took the dress away, the first answer Riot gave to that was something that Karma herself had as a joke: "This dress might have been impractical" and it was, on a field where you got people geared for battle, wearing a dress is... odd? it looks out of place but of course it's a fantasy game, we have Zyra who wears nothing, why couldn't Karma keep her dress and keep those who liked her being classy happy?

Because of who Karma is, she's not classy, she's not a nun, she's a GENERAL of Ionia, her lore had her become enraged at the stuff she saw Noxus doing to her country and she decided to not sit idle anymore, she decided she would leave her poise behind in order to enter the battlefield "As Ionia changes so must I" This is a woman who had decided to get her hands dirty, how can you fight with tooth and nails while wearing a dress???? In a fantasy world this could happen I guess but there's more weight on taking the dress off than keeping it on just because that was her first incarnation.

Karma as a character changed, she did what was best for her country and you could say that this is but lore and it could be changed at any time and I would ask you this: As a general of your country would you care for your clothing more than to defend your people? the change wasn't deliberate it is but story progression and the visuals go hand in hand with this, it's what's logical on a situation like that with a title like Karma had.

The traditional skin would work if it was a legendary skin, because they would need to build another model and rig it anew, all of this only to keep nostalgia people, who cares not to read onto her new lore, happy... what? now I ask you, is this reason enough to spend a crazy amount of resources on making a legendary skin under the constrains of it needing to be almost exact to her old self? wow I honestly don't think so

I'm sorry if I didn't answer to all your claims, this is a very lengthy subject that I AVOID because I hate expending an hour WRITING ABOUT FANTASY TO A UNKNOWN PERSON ONLINE

KeysheMar 29, 20171 votes

Actually, the poll's basically tied, so...

You're also replying to each of my posts as much as I am, so I don't see how I'm any more stubborn. You seem to have your own idea on why someone should reply to posts, but you're acting just as interested in doing so as I am. Fact is I care when I see someone complain about other people who aren't necessarily in the wrong -- they just have a different opinion -- and they won't even justify their complaints... Not sure why that's so strange to you. You seemed to spend a fair bit of your post making cracks about how silly it is taking the time to make these replies... if it bothers you so much, then why even reply?

However, I see you're addressing things now, so... thank you?

If the issue is that the skin doesn't look anything like old Karma, then how could Riot possibly have done all they could to make it good? It seems to me like the reason we got the skin we have now is that they initially tried to make it look much closer to the new Karma (not the old) with the open-dress look and just band-aided that after the complaints. You might argue that they have no incentive to put in more work, but I know people who are still waiting for a chance to buy traditional skins. Riot hardly ever makes them available. They literally swept them under a rug. If they treated them more like real content, I don't see why any of this would be an issue; Riot's incentive is money, and the effort is the same as new modeling on any skin.

If a champion rework was actually so different that any skin that looked like the old one wouldn't work for them at ALL... then Riot went too far changing the character. It seems like they probably actually agree on this, too; that was their stated thinking for dropping traditional skins; they should do reworks that give the original character respect. Clearly they think they are doing that, but lots of fans disagree each time they come out with a rework.

Of course Captain Gangplank is used more; it's STILL available to buy like a normal skin, and Gangplank was a much more popular character when he was reworked than Karma was; more people would have gotten it, especially since the kit rework came out BEFORE the skin was no longer available for free.

Now this next part is where you lose me. You agree the skin isn't ideal, but that Riot could do nothing about that, and yet you talk about it being unpolished. Why would Karma fans complain about a genuine upgrade to what they actually liked about a character? Why DOESN'T it look like old Karma? Why didn't they re-record the lines and give her more and just... make that her actual rework? The precedent for this working was Twitch; Twitch was outdated in countless ways before they reworked him, and they changed and upgraded everything but without changing his identity at all... and to my knowledge no one really minded that rework. Even if Riot didn't do that with Karma herself, doing similar treatment on a skin seems perfectly worthwhile (and, since lore is set aside, wouldn't require much more than the usual design work needed to make a new skin... less even since it's based on an existing design). You seem focused on traditional skin limitations... but as you said, this was the beginning of traditional skins; those limits were set WITH Traditional Karma, so where's the excuse really?

Most VOs changed or added voice lines. Why not with her? If they got rid of her lines but otherwise kept her intact as a purely normal skin, I'm not sure most would mind. Or, if normal players bought a skin with less lines than a default (like an old traditional skin) but ones that are still different... I'm not sure they would mind that either. The voice lines seem to be the point of contention here but honestly I think that is a detail that would be best taken in stride by both sides; old fans could probably accept a removal or expansion on old voice lines, and new skin buyers probably won't care that much; they'd just think it was cool they got different lines. Incidentally the old Karma had 15 voice lines, the new one has 20; we're talking a 5-line difference here... they even have the same number of emotes. Anyway, the old unpolished skins still get bought; why do you think Riot made a point of bringing back all the old limited holiday skins? And we already know old Karma fans would more or less accept some design change... because some of them are voting to keep the closed-dress look even though, as you said, it doesn't look like the old Karma. You know they'd accept some changes; they already have.

The point about her being a general is odd too because she still doesn't look like one. You say the dress makes no sense on a general but she's actually still wearing one, just in a different style, and has no armor of any kind apart from functionally useless shoulder bits; she's a spellcaster. As you said, it's fantasy and in these kinds of stories spellcasters typically wear robes of some kind. If it doesn't make sense for a general to wear a dress, then why does it make sense for a general to switch to a new dress and show some leg?

If Captain Gangplank is so much better though... let's look at how perfect his archetype is for Karma: So Karma changed, right, became a general? Why not canonize that? Why not have her old look as... her old look, with her change in identity with the new lore being a canonical character shift? I know they weren't all about lore then and they had a change in standards with the Bilgewater event but we just keep coming back to a general laziness in their handling of the situation, if not from a lack of effort than certainly from a lack of standards they've since come to.

They didn't need to make it an entire Legendary skin to work. A dress isn't a separate element attached to a 3D model; it's part of one. They had good voice lines (for the time, certainly; maybe not these days), they have to do new model work for most skins already, and certainly had to between Captain Gangplank and the new Classic look for him; just looking at them their body type isn't even the same, let alone their stance or their entire outfits, and Captain Gangplank is a normal skin.

HigeMar 29, 20171 votes

If the issue is that the skin doesn't look anything like old Karma, then how could Riot possibly have done all they could to make it good?

they tried making it AS close but fell short because as you mentioned later in your post, 3D model issues, everything on league of legends is mesh, loincloths and stuff are simply meshes folded very thinly on themselves (if you see the underside) or simply they are part of the model as a whole (if you don't need to see the underside) both of which need to be animated and texturized properly or it end ups looking very odd, take Morgana for example, she does have the "bone" for legs in order for her buffs to show but bellow her skirt there's no legs... she's a big blob that wobbles around (although in some skins she does have feet but no thighs)

There is a skin that does what you say though, they took the basic model and covered it with an adaptable mesh, it's queen Ashe and as you can see it does look very odd, it's still a solution though so that's that but I think it's far better if they sit down and work their best in order to make a better dress for Karma... but...

Again, this new 3D model is a heavy modification of current Karma's model, if on top of that you gotta add new animations, new particles and expand the VO... that's a legendary skin

Captain Gankplank uses the same animations that classic gp uses and while he does have a somewhat different model, at its core it's the same one mostly because the rigging is exactly the same. Karma can't do this because of the inherent differences between a model with a dress and one without it, basically, it moves differently and must have different animations and rigging

Of course Captain Gangplank is used more; it's STILL available to buy like a normal skin

You have the idea that Karma's traditional skin would get bought if they released it and I would agree with this but that's not the issue, I think it's far worse to buy a skin and dislike it than not buying it at all, back in the day they had several skins with this impact, rusty blitz for example was blitz with a few brown patches, it felt like a rip off and people were very upset about it, traditional Karma isn't worth even 325 rp with that VO and particles, in order to sell satisfaction here they must work on it first and as I said the amount of work they need to pour is at least very high in order to "fix" it properly

Why would Karma fans complain about a genuine upgrade to what they actually liked about a character? Why DOESN'T it look like old Karma? Why didn't they re-record the lines and give her more and just... make that her actual rework?

Ease down on the whys, you know the answer to several of these, they took like 6 months to complete Karma and at the time they thought it was too long since she wasn't a new character and they wanted to fix Karma's gameplay problems, so yeah it was rushed but considering the circumstances it's perfectly understandable, currently they take a lot more time on their reworks so you can't say they don't listen

Fans complain because they are attached to her old incarnation but people change, characters change, they evolve and learn, why is there such a need for it to stay the same when it can be a better representation of itself? wouldn't you make improvements in your life if you could? Character progression, she didn't fit in according to foundations and they changed her... and on the topic of foundations...

Foundations took the task of creating a bigger IP for league than what we can imagine, they worked on lore during 3 years I believe, making bonds between characters and whatnot, I would think that they saw Karma and realized that she didn't fit so they decided to advance her story to the next chapter... right or wrong that was the choice they made and their data showed some degree of content with it (my side)

If they got rid of her lines but otherwise kept her intact as a purely normal skin, I'm not sure most would mind

I can't say for sure if most wouldn't mind but even if there was 1 person who preferred the old VO (out of nostalgia) what should be the choice then? currently we don't know the numbers so as far as that goes there's not much more to comment about but as you can see, the nostalgia holding back the skin IS a thing

because some of them are voting to keep the closed-dress look even though, as you said, it doesn't look like the old Karma

Probably not because they accept change but because they have to... there's not much of a choice here since Riot hasn't even open the discussion gates on this, they made a choice about Karma and since then it's been tough love, the most they have looked back on it has been adding the almost-closed dress.

The point about her being a general is odd too because she still doesn't look like one

yeah she looks more like a battle priestess (which matches her gameplay... that's not a coincidence btw), the point being that she still likes to have certain degree of poise while still being ready to battle, they could have covered her in armor but then THAT would have been going too far, taking the dress and reworking it into robes is, for a lack of words, classy and ties with character progression not to mention that while her splash doesn't look like it, her model does show some sort of magical armor theme going on.

why does it make sense for a general to switch to a new dress and show some leg?

I think the focus here is a bit off, you say she's simply showing off her legs, I say she's getting into a comfortable attire in order to fight considering that her weapon is energy, it seems to me like they intended her to have her legs covered (right leg) but found that symmetry felt repetitive and opted for flow instead, she has one of the dragons crawling up her left leg, so she isn't baring her legs... she has no choice since clothing would explode either way? this is of course written like that on purpose to justify leg showing but well, the justification works and you know, this was done during the "sex sales" era on Riot but to me it doesn't look bad or slutty or even provocative, to me it looks badass and the fact that it's justifiable with her powers is cool too.

Axle the BeastMar 23, 20171 votes

How do you think Mundo Mundo -- literally just a champion wearing a mask of their own face -- is a better concept, with better design, and more well-suited to the game than a badass rot troll, a bikini barbarian woman (which is a staple of fantasy in a lot of cases if beloved characters like Red Sonja are any indication), and an Indian mage woman?

I wanted all of those traditional skins (and I had no interest in those girls as champions; Trundle was the only one I was already a fan of), and I've never even entertained the thought of buying Mundo Mundo even though he's one of my big mains.

It's an ancient skin. 2010 Harrowing. It's an older design than Karma, Sejuani, or Trundle even are.

HigeMar 23, 20171 votes

it's a better concept because of WHO mundo is, this wouldn't work with a champion like Karma for example although it does works on Draven who is all about himself, so you see, even a goofy skin has quite the background and they wouldn't throw a skin in there that defeated the purpose of a champion.

Saying that Annie or brand change elements on their respective skins is not a parallel to this, they still use elemental magic to deal damage but a concept like knives Annie wouldn't see the light of the day because annie has NOTHING to do with knives but a twisted thing like robot annie could.

Axle the BeastMar 24, 20171 votes

It absolutely would be a skin on a champion like Karma, since equally silly skins show up on Udyr and Soraka during April Fools. You're trying to draw some linear line between skins and original champion concepts that doesn't really exist. Skins keep the basics in-line and then just try to provide cool new looks that would be desirable on a character like that, either because (as you've suggested in your other posts) they explore new aspects or versions of a character, or because they're just different and cool or fun. The Mecha skins make no god damn sense in League's world and aren't even limited to actually giant characters, but even small ones like Kha'Zix or Aatrox. It's the rule of cool; skins are for customization, not worldbuilding; if the point were to build lore or character with them, then the Project skins -- and the obvious story being built around them hinted in their preview/announcement posts and in the big cinematic for them -- would be in some way integrated into the canon. Even if that were the point Riot wanted to stick to with skin design, it would actually be a bad point; they're a customization option and should do whatever is needed to serve giving the players new ways to express themselves with a champion. As long as the champion is still readable, anything should go.

Soraka is supposed to be a pure priestess champion, and a noble, holy healer, and yet I've wanted either a scary/evil or a sexy skin for her for a long time... and finally got them with the Reaper and Order of the Banana skins. Whether or not they're perfectly in-tune with Soraka as a character is not important. All that matters is they don't overlap with other characters' silhouettes (both of them are clearly Soraka skins, not those of any other champion).

There are no readability problems with any of the Traditional skins that are any worse than on any other champion. Trundle's abilities are obviously Trundle's abilities with a different element, Sejuani's are exactly the same... and really so are Karma's with like, SLIGHT color variation? I'm watching videos to compare and the differences are super subtle. As long as they're readable as the same champ and abilities any shift should be fine. Obviously Annie wouldn't throw like, single knives, but little knife flurries or clouds that read as visually similar to fireballs and explosions shouldn't be an issue if they can make a cool skin around them... and you just came up with one so obviously you agree.

The point of a skin is to bring forth a new customization option. New Trundle, and old Trundle... ARE DIFFERENT. They look different, sound different, have different spell effects. This is cool and awesome. Now I have two wildly different Trundles that I love basically just as much. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with people liking Karma's old outfit? Maybe it's just not the skin for you (in fact if you actually like the new design, then it literally just ISN'T; Traditional Karma was made for her old fans who will miss her old design). I wanted a Traditional Sion because I wanted my rotten, boney corpse back, not the fully-fleshed new design they came up with, and the fact is I would just prefer to have a messed-up looking zombie IN GENERAL even if they made a "Traditional Sion" that was literally just a new skin, without being a reference to a previous design at all.

HigeMar 24, 20171 votes

Ok, traditional skins aren't the same as a regular skins, you understand this right?

Riot makes no profit out of a traditional skin, they also keep the old VO and it doesn't matter how off base (in the world of runeterra outlined by the foundation team) the original design was, in the end they are forced to keep all the elements in place.

Zombie Sion on the other hand is a complete different issue, why? well, while Riot could make it green with a bone arm, they would also have a lot more freedom on its VO and some other elements as well, the skin could be awesome on it's own without being shackled to the past, they could even hire someone who sounded like Arnold Schwarzenegger and expand the VO.

but a Traditional skin forbids them from doing this because it's something so constrained on its own that they can't work with it, they can't expand it even if they wanted because anything that looks remotely off triggers nostalgia fans. Sejuani could easily be Pool Party Sejuani while HINTING at her old incarnation but they are locked out of that because of what a traditional skin is supposed to be

There is nothing wrong with liking old Karma but please understand that by asking it to stay traditional you're gimping a great potential skin that's not even close to what old karma was, the dress is almost closed yes BUT IT ISN'T EITHER WAY.

instead I would take as a better idea to ask for a skin with a TRULY tamale closed dress for karma where her animations flow better, maybe even a LEGENDARY skin that modifies her model so much that it works better and becomes a better ode at old Karma than the half assed thing we have today

Axle the BeastMar 25, 20171 votes

I'm well aware of how traditional skins work. I own two and followed all of Riot's discussion on the subject at the time of all three (I'm a budding game designer; I followed all of Riot's moves on League for a long time to study them). You rather thoroughly missed my point; the traditional skins that exist are awesome skins in their own right (as I illustrated in my last post; if you disagree then like, make that point; trying to ask me if I even understand something that is so irrelevant to the point I just made isn't helpful).

And anything about current rules on Traditional Skins isn't set in stone. You discussed this in-depth with Keyshe earlier about Captain Gangplank (which is obviously a traditional skin type deal), so even if Riot doesn't make full-on traditional skins with the same rules, they can still keep the champions' old concepts... and if those old concepts are just... good... then why the hell would you not preserve them? Old Sion's design is cool.

I don't see how preserving Traditional Karma as-is gimps anything, especially since the thread was literally suggesting a toggle so we could have both (not that that was made clear; I've been trying to make that point to the OP xP). They can just make a similar skin if they have some concept for one, and probably even save on a lot of work (not to mention be able to offer a cheaper price) if it's derivative of Traditional Karma. It having a lot of overlap wouldn't really matter; tons of Xin Zhao's skins overlap really hard but people still like them... I guess. (I hate all of his skins but I don't like him to begin with so whatever.)

You say there's nothing wrong with liking old Karma but you're basically locked into this mentality of... like, the existence of a Traditional Skin -- or anything resembling it -- somehow hurts Karma across the board and I don't see how you don't understand how silly that is. I mean what about Traditional Karma even prevents them from doing a different closed-dress or open-dress skin... or, hell, what's stopping them from touching up Traditional Karma so it flows better or whatever?

Forbidden SirenMar 21, 20172 votes

I've always been torn between both but ultimately, the closed up dress is the closest thing we can get to old Karma since her new style of gameplay is no longer reminiscent to her old gameplay.

HupsisMar 21, 20171 votes

I'd be fine with a toggle... and I'm sure you would be too. Riot just seems lazy when it comes to toggleable features on skins.

Forbidden SirenMar 21, 20171 votes

A toggle would be amazing. Probably the best way to handle the situation. But yeah, they don't seem to like to work on any new skins with toggles lately.

HupsisMar 21, 20172 votes

Or old skins for that matter... especially limited availability skins :/

XenethMar 22, 20172 votes

Can see where you're coming from, her animations/rig don't make the closed dress flow very well in motion... But in the end, I prefer the closed dress and support the change they made at the time, because it pushes the design farther away from her "standard" skin. I like the agency of choosing to showing a little more leg in standard or sun goddess mode vs. the slightly more conservative dresses of traditional, sakura, or lotus.

As a Karma main, the thing I want most from her array of skins is variety, and you can imagine if both the traditional and standard skins had an array of chroma options available, the closed dress would help further differentiate between, say, Traditional Amethyst Karma and Standard Rose-Quartz Karma or whatever.

HupsisMar 22, 20171 votes

Traditional skin will probably never have chroma options due to it being an unavailable skin (although not sure if you can get it through hextech crafting). I'm only hoping Riot makes a toggle option for the dress.

Chroma options for a Karma skin would probably either go to her base skin or sakura skin depending on whether they want to make it for the cape dress or kimono dress.

XenethMar 22, 20172 votes

Oh, I totally know that under the current production reality, it's wishful thinking that there'd be chromas for two Karma skins, let alone one that's not usually in the store. More of a thought experiment meant to highlight that I like there being multiple open and closed dress options. A skin collector can dream...

Fun fact, you CAN roll Traditional Karma as a skin shard in crafting, and one of the "my seasonal deal" offers is also capable of offering it up! I was actually able to buy Traditional Karma on a smurf that was created after she was reworked that latter way!

KeysheMar 22, 20171 votes

"Wingfield also clarified you can get legacy skins from crafting but not limited skins:

"Legacy skins are included. Limited are not."

As they are legacy, this also includes "traditional" skins such as Traditional Sejuani and Karma:

"Traditionals are legacy, so they are included in the loot tables :)"

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/03/red-post-collection-april-sales.html#more

Edit: They are also possible to get randomly when you buy random skin option.

KeysheMar 22, 20171 votes

Karma was the only character in a dress and I'm happy she still kept it in her skins. I wasn't much of a fan of her before, too new to the game and she was reworked before I even got to know her very well. I had two weeks or something to try her before the rework(I'd been playing maybe 6 months before). I ran out to buy her to try her out as she was. Liked her a lot and wish I had played her long before :(

The open leg Sakura IMO looked horrible glad they worked the skirt in. I thought the original Traditional looked as it was awesome, but thought the added skirt was important for what it was suppose to be. I usually use that skin on her. Soo glad Sun Goddess lost the skirt tho... XD

KeysheMar 22, 20172 votes

The closed dress is more like what it's suppose to be, so I have to vote for that. The short open one I think looks better over all, but staying as the 'traditional' skin is what I believe is most important. I guessing her legs being so visible in the splash has more to do with how hard it is to draw dresses sitting pose with out references, as well looks more awkward, unless she was sitting on her knees.

Edit: I could see adding a toggle feature as useful and would leave room for more dynamic concept to skins too, but unless Riot puts TK into the shop I don't see how it'd be worth it to them.

HupsisMar 22, 20171 votes

We can hope to get a toggle if Riot ever revisits Karma... maybe in the enchanter roster update (hopefully after diver update).

WinterkillMar 22, 20172 votes

Agreed. Dress open.

Axle the BeastMar 23, 20171 votes

I'm not going to vote because honestly I don't approve of the framing of the question. =P

I'm not an old Karma fan. I only bought her just before the rework because, like you, I liked the slightly new design for the open-dress Traditional Skin better than the old design (or her new reworked one), and because I liked her old emotes better than her new ones... so I knew it was the skin for me.

So, I think the open-dress look is better... but that's just personal taste. The closed-dress look is more in tune with her original design, and the entire point of the traditional skins was to appease the old fans... which I'm not one of; my opinion is irrelevant. Let the old fans have this... they lost an entire character they used to love. If the current skin looks bad quality-wise or something... then Riot should just fix it up.

Also for what it's worth... not that I don't get why you thought of it because the splash really just reminded you of this issue... the dress is open on the splash because... like, it CAN open because it's built that way; they drew her like that because that's how it'd look while sitting like that. I hope discussions like this don't happen every time Riot draws supplementary artwork of characters and just pose them differently in them. xD

(P.S. You only even mention a "toggle" at the end of the post and never in the actual poll question; your post does not at a glance read that you're suggesting have both, but to replace the current look with the open-dress one. I'm not sure a toggle would be easily implemented (more likely we'd just get two slightly different skins and they'd have to make another splash or something) but you barely even suggest it in your post and that may well be getting you more negative votes than you might otherwise get since you're literally asking for one or the other in your poll.)

HupsisMar 23, 20171 votes

Well in the poll I'm not specifically asking whether riot should revert the change or not. I'm just asking people what version they prefer :P

Toggle option would be the best solution and considering Riot still probably has the rig and animations for the open dress traditional Karma, a toggle option shouldn't be too hard to implement. Riot could also let us choose the model before the game starts similarly to how chromas are selected.

Axle the BeastMar 24, 20171 votes

Yes, but the problem is asking which is preferred is distracting from the more important point of your thread, especially since you only mention that ideal solution one time, and right next to the much more eye-grabbing poll. No poll at all would have been more likely to garner unconditional support and possibly get it implemented. That's my point. =P

HupsisMar 24, 20171 votes

Well it seems people like both versions of the skin so if anything, Riot will give us an option to choose between the two versions ingame or before the game starts. Just removing the current skin version would most likely also raise threads similar to this asking to give back the closed dress.

The poll is just to gather as much opinions as possible. If the poll wasn't included, the thread wouldn't have much proof of supporters (and all the votes going to the current version would be cast as downvotes to this thread, which might very well be the case even now). Also due to the controversial style the question was asked, it hopefully lures more votes.

Axle the BeastMar 25, 20171 votes

Yes but making a poll that instead asked, "Should Riot include a toggle option between both the open and closed dress?" would have been much clearer and less divisive.

Also upvotes are proof of supporters, for whatever it's worth, but the poll is fine it just should have been worded differently.