PSA: Zoe's Nerfs Are Bigger Than You Think

ShuyinTheX·Jan 10, 2018·20 votes·2,657 views

While I was reading the patch notes yesterday, I noticed a few things. And today while watching Phreak's patch notes rundown those things were confirmed. Zoe was actually nerfed a lot harder than the on-paper patch notes tells you. The delay on her Q>Q>R making it Q>R>wait>Q is pretty big because now she can't get that extra range until after she's fully out of her portal, which means for awhile a lot of players are going to 2nd Q too soon and it end up stopping short. In addition, she no longer gets Gunblade from minion drops which is pretty big too.

Now for Phreak's perspective: https://youtu.be/wuLvlkr-bj8?t=21m58s

46 Comments

0racle0912Jan 10, 201811 votes

I think the disappointing thing is that her Q damage is untouched and you still can get 1 shot very easily if she lands her E. Her damage is too high. That's basically it imo.

RevaliJan 10, 20186 votes

I don't thinkg the damage is entirely the issue, I think all these changes to make her an actual skill cap champ instead of phishing for one hit

0racle0912Jan 10, 20187 votes

{quoted}

I don't thinkg the damage is entirely the issue, I think all these changes to make her an actual skill cap champ instead of phishing for one hit

Well regardless of the skill requirements, her damage is insane. To 1 shot pretty much anyone on the enemy team just land your E, time R then land Q. This is not healthy at all.

And perhaps I didn't word things well, but the damage is the main issue, not entirely. The changes perhaps will help, but I still think her damage needs to be reduced.

ShuyinTheXJan 10, 20186 votes

Damage means nothing if you can't hit the skill shots. Avoid her E and she can't do anything.

0racle0912Jan 10, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Damage means nothing if you can't hit the skill shots. Avoid her E and she can't do anything.

Well, yes, but it's not really that hard to hit them imo, even with the changes. The reward for hitting them is far to high, especially with such low cooldowns.

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well, yes, but it's not really that hard to hit them imo, even with the changes. The reward for hitting them is far to high, especially with such low cooldowns.

That's literally every mage tho.

Lux Lands her Snare, you get 1 shot.

Brand Lands his Stun, you get 1 shot.

Syndra lands her Stun, you get 1 shot.

Xerath Lands his E, you get 1 shot.

Hell, Veigar doesn't even need to LAND his E, he just has to place it around you.

0racle0912Jan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That's literally every mage tho.

Lux Lands her Snare, you get 1 shot.

Brand Lands his Stun, you get 1 shot.

Syndra lands her Stun, you get 1 shot.

Xerath Lands his E, you get 1 shot.

Hell, Veigar doesn't even need to LAND his E, he just has to place it around you.

Are you high?

Lux, brand, syndra can one shot you late game, Zoe can do it after 2 items.

Xerath is pathetic compared to zoe. You need to land ALL of his abilites to hopefully one shot them, when you only need 2 for zoe. Even still with Xerath his damage isn't even comparable to zoe in the late game.

Veigar, yes, he can do that, but is it ok to just walk up to someone and R?

You mention all of these mages that (supposedly) one shot someone that somehow justifies zoe's 2 skill shot lethal combo. Hitting 1 cc to kill someone shouldn't be ok, it provides little to no counterplay and is not healthy imo at all. I'm only singling out zoe here because the thread is about zoe.. The general damage of the game is too high, and zoe in particular is not in a healthy position.

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Are you high?

Lux, brand, syndra can one shot you late game, Zoe can do it after 2 items.

This is a joke right? Lux 1 shots you after 1 back with item 1058 or even just ( item 3802 + item 3108 ) Brand and Syndra 1 shot you with Doran's Ring at Level 6.

Meanwhile, Zoe actually NEEDS 2 items to 80% you unless you do somethign dumb enough to LET her 1 shot you, and even then, she is most likely getting punished or retaliated upon even after doign so given how much she has to commit to do so unlike these other mage that just fish for the CC spell and then unload on you from 1k to 2k range.

Xerath is pathetic compared to zoe. You need to land ALL of his abilites to hopefully one shot them,

Xerath currently only needs W and Q to 1 shot in the current state of the game. If he lands his E, you are dead.

His Ulti alone can 100-0 multiple champions from over 5000k range.

when you only need 2 for zoe.

This is a fallacious statement. Zoe needs the entirety of her kit to 1 shot. Just because only 2 of her abilities actually deal damage does not mean it is accurate or fair to treat it as if she "ONLY NEEDS 2". That's incredibly disingenuous and deliberate fudging of the truth on your end.

Even still with Xerath his damage isn't even comparable to zoe in the late game.

is this a joke? Zoe actually sux late game outside of her pick potential with E over walls.

Xerath is a late game MONSTER with his Ultimate and Seiging power and large AOE damage and poke.

Zoe needs her entire Kit and to put herseld in hards way to do what Xerath Can from the safety of a towers worth of distance with just his ! on a 3 second CD.

This comparison is ludicrous.

Veigar, yes, he can do that, but is it ok to just walk up to someone and R?

yes. yes it is.

You mention all of these mages that (supposedly) one shot someone that somehow justifies zoe's 2 skill shot lethal combo. Hitting 1 cc to kill someone shouldn't be ok, it provides little to no counterplay and is not healthy imo at all. I'm only singling out zoe here because the thread is about zoe.. The general damage of the game is too high, and zoe in particular is not in a healthy position.

Singling out Zoe doesn't accomplish anything if the issue is the gameplay pattern. If the issue is the CC to 100- pattern, criticize the pattern, not just the FotM punching bag champion.0

HongChongDongJan 10, 201819 votes

Avoid a 5 second CD ability that can be launched from outside of vision range through walls. If you dodge you get no reward and she loses a teeny tiny bit of mana, if she lands it you die. Balanced risk VS reward gameplay!

ShuyinTheXJan 10, 20186 votes

You're trying to mix apples and oranges. In lane, Zoe isn't difficult, just annoying. If you follow the teachings of "How to beat Blitzcrank" you win vs her in lane. If you're in an outer lane, don't stand next to an inner wall.

There is a reason she is a sub-50% win-rate ya know. She just does big damage if you let her.

T4underboltJan 10, 20183 votes

Let me remind you lb had 45% at times she had silence. So win rate is invalid for such cancer champs

LuxannaVeritasJan 10, 20185 votes

It's a 6 second cooldown at max rank, with 40% CDR and ONLY IF a champion falls asleep.

It's an 8 second cooldown at max rank, with 40% CDR.

It's a 14 second cooldown at max rank.

If she has it up, then you play carefully. If she misses it, then you can go in on her. Also, only a few walls are "outside of vision range."

So yeah, it is balanced risk vs. reward gameplay. If you get hit with her E, then it's your fault and no one else's.

HongChongDongJan 10, 20184 votes

You don't go after her though..... What is it about "Can engage outside of vision range" that people don't understand. Sure if the Zoe goes full bronze mode and engages from like 5 feet away then you can punish her, but the normal distance that she can stay at is far beyond what a vast majority of champions are capable of traversing.

Only a handful of champions can even cover that distance and they aren't going to kill her. Her team is going to be right there and fully capable of instagibbing any wannabe diver who thinks they can follow the Zoe. Even if the team isn't there to protect her she's still very likely to have SS up as well as anything she has from W.

greekvandaLJan 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Avoid a 5 second CD ability that can be launched from outside of vision range through walls. If you dodge you get no reward and she loses a teeny tiny bit of mana, if she lands it you die. Balanced risk VS reward gameplay!

Lux reminds me of alittle lady with 9 skins.

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 11, 20181 votes

It's 8 and considering she's been out since 2009 and 2 of those were release skins, it's pretty 'eh' tbh

hhaavviikkJan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Damage means nothing if you can't hit the skill shots. Avoid her E and she can't do anything.

people need to stop using this argument, if dodging would be a valid counter argument then no champion that has allot of skillshots would never be viable

ShuyinTheXJan 10, 20182 votes

What people need to do is stop assuming everyone has a 100% hit-rate with skill shots. It's far less valid to assume that is the case than moving left or right to avoid something is. It mainly depends on the speed and telegraph of the skill shot, which hers is pretty obvious and easy to get around.

AudiomancyJan 10, 20181 votes

To be fair, Zoe's Q is basically all of her damage. If you nerf it, she'll just go support and we'll have another Brand/Annie/Malzahar on our hands.

0racle0912Jan 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Futaba Chan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dkjOwlLe,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-01-10T21:32:10.915+0000)

To be fair, Zoe's Q is basically all of her damage. If you nerf it, she'll just go support and we'll have another Brand/Annie/Malzahar on our hands.

I'm not saying kill it, but tone it down a bit. A 150% increase modifier is a little much, no? Lmao perhaps lower that a bit and she will be better to lane against. I just don't agree with the whole 1 shot almost artillery-like concept she is.

TotalJerkJan 10, 20182 votes

If she lands an E and then does a QQR/QRQ combo that means she used 3 spells to kill you, which is pretty acceptable for a burst mage. IMO she has other problems.

0racle0912Jan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If she lands an E and then does a QQR/QRQ combo that means she used 3 spells to kill you, which is pretty acceptable for a burst mage. IMO she has other problems.

That's not really burst imo, more so just high powered artillery. Once her E hits it's basically gg. I think she would be a lot better to play with or against if she wasn't so reliant on the combo mentioned to 1 shot someone then rinse and repeat.

TotalJerkJan 11, 20183 votes

Well lots of mages have that one spell that's like "if they land it you're fucked".

Ahri : E Anivia : Q Annie : Passive Stun Lux : Q Velkoz : E Viktor : W

The problem is less that she has a spell that sets you up for a full rotation, and more that it's way too damn forgiving to use and easy to hit.

Clowns SuckJan 11, 20181 votes

AFAIK all of those also have to be closer to hit you with said spells.

TotalJerkJan 11, 20182 votes

Sure, but they also have other strengths that Zoe lacks.

AudiomancyJan 11, 20181 votes

Lux : "Close range? What even is that?"

PokladnicaZlaJan 10, 20187 votes

Her biggest problem is how reliable her damage with her E is.She's like Nida with CC.

They can nerf her all they want,but the problem is her E.It's adds way too much and is too forgiving.

The easiest solution would to turn the true damage from her E into magic damage ( so she can't be efficient against MR stacking champions) , the AoE at the end of range should slowly spread out to it's current size( not be instant.It's annoying to dodge it at max range,but get hit by the AoE),remove CD refund if she hits. Zoe should be weak if she misses her E and that should be the moment you go in on her.

LuxannaVeritasJan 10, 20184 votes

This is a very correct and very nice post that's going to get unfairly downvoted to oblivion by the Zoe hate circlejerk going around the boards.

I pray for your post's safety; I've given you my upvote and I hope others do the same. [sg-soraka]

TotalJerkJan 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

In addition, she no longer gets Gunblade from minion drops which is pretty big too.

Umm, Why the fuck wasn't that in the patch notes?

lolipopevelynnJan 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

While I was reading the patch notes yesterday, I noticed a few things. And today while watching Phreak's patch notes rundown those things were confirmed. Zoe was actually nerfed a lot harder than the on-paper patch notes tells you. The delay on her Q>Q>R making it Q>R>wait>Q is pretty big because now she can't get that extra range until after she's fully out of her portal, which means for awhile a lot of players are going to 2nd Q too soon and it end up stopping short. In addition, she no longer gets Gunblade from minion drops which is pretty big too.

Now for Phreak's perspective: https://youtu.be/wuLvlkr-bj8?t=21m58s

riot is ridiculous for nerfing a 46% winrate champion just because of crying from the boards. absolutely ridiculous. meanwhile Vayne MissFortune Twitch Akali get free passes as usual

DuskDaUmbreonJan 10, 20186 votes

Twitch is sub 50% right now, and really won't be viable again until the burst goes down. Nerfs to him would be hard to gauge, because you're not going to see how it affects him when he's able to be viable, you're just going to see his winrate go down even more.

And I'm pretty sure Akali just barely went over 50%. She's sitting at 51-52%, I believe. Not exactly a high enough priority for nerfs, especially when part of her power comes from runes and the meta itself (As evidenced by the fact that she was almost dead on a 50% winrate before preseason). She needs a small-scale rework, to give her an actual escape (the shroud is nice, but she has no other way to escape combat besides the tiny-ass blink, unlike every other assassin), and a more balanced laning phase in mid.

Instead, I'd like to draw more attention to Varus 's damage. That shit is through the fucking roof. The guy's dealing more damage than anyone else in the botlane roster.

BjørnetjenestenJan 10, 20182 votes

Thank god, Lets pray she gets more nerfs until she is gutted and unplayable, then she can get reworked to something healthy with a new VO too.

SarcasticShepardJan 10, 20182 votes

They still did nothing about making the her drowsy and sleep follow along with other 2-stage cc effects.

Its still a nerf, but not the one the keep her off my permaban list.

Violet FieldsJan 10, 20182 votes

They need to make her Q deal less damage and have a slightly lower cooldown. That way she has to land more than 2 to kill somebody rather than having one delete an entire person's health bar, on a guaranteed hit.

xGunna1Jan 10, 20181 votes

RIP QQR COMBO ZOE

Sire HippingtonJan 10, 20181 votes

Justed tested her in a custom and didn't really notice any difference, all the combos still go fluidly and rather easy for me, inclueding the Q-Q-R one. yea, you can't wait that extra ~.2 sec between Q2 and R for an even more supprising Q, but that is not a big issue and most of the time you E will set up things anyway

The more noticeable thing is the E nerf, dodgeing it on max range now actually can get you away from the bubble in time, though it really wouldn't hurt to make it a full 1 sec delay, it should be a zoneing tool at best if it misses, not an extension to the hitbox.

T4underboltJan 10, 20181 votes

No its not a big nerf. Do you know why phreak is making it like a big deal? Because they want to keep the illusion that this game is not being turned into casual fiesta by simplyfying everything. Chaning muscle memory or just a feel of a right moment for using abilities in combination is just a matter of few hours practice. Stop making it big deal like its so mechanically hard.

Plastic 5 ADCJan 10, 20181 votes

So what, get hit by an E that travels across the entire universe, and she's still gonna explode your ass

NiyumeJan 11, 20181 votes

And now that she feels awful to play, and has even more delay and telegraphing in her kit, people are still going to whine about her being broken, and she's goinna be nerfed again.

People whine and whine about champs not having counterplay, but when one comes out that has so much counterplay that you have literally zero reason to even take a hit from her abilities... people call it broken. I just don't get it.

ChuShoeJan 11, 20182 votes

people are still going to whine about her being broken, and she's goinna be nerfed again.

Please don't crucify me for saying this, but I personally don't care if it's OP or lacks counterplay or whatever. If it's frustrating to fight beyond the level of fighting Yasuo (a champion who is memed back and forth throughout space & time for being hated), I'm completely fine with said champion sitting in the dumpster until their annoying, frustrating, and flat out unfun kit is changed.

For me, Zoe surpasses Yasuo in what Yasuo does best; Tilting even above-average players.

Against Yasuo I feel like I have more presence in lane. At least when he spams his CC in order to get an engage, you can see it coming and do something about it. Zoe on the otherhand spams E until she FINALLY lands one, and then once she does (unless she's an idiot who hasn't even been farming with autos) she will 1-shot you with her Q.

NiyumeJan 11, 20182 votes

I actually have fun playing against Zoe. Unlike almost every other champ in the game, it's up to me to fuck up in order for her to win -- she literally can't land a hit unless you let her.

Then champs like Fucksuo... it's their lane to lose, not yours to win. Yas has an answer to almost every situation, and if the player can capitalize on that, they can't lose. That's why he's frustrating.

And please, let's pull our heads out and stop pretending Zoe ever one shots.

ChuShoeJan 11, 20182 votes

You can say that she will not hit you unless you let her, which is fair enough. But that's when the spamming becomes annoying. Blocked by minions? sure. Blocked by allies? Sure. But sooner or later, one is going to hit you and your teammates/minions will not be able to save you.

My problem isn't with it being "undodgeable", my problem with it is her using it almost every time it's up. That's what's frustrating about it.

And please, let's pull our heads out and stop pretending Zoe ever one shots.

There have been plenty of times I have been/Seen someone Get 1-shot by a Zoe even if they are behind in kills and CS. The bonus true damage on her sleepy makes this, and chunking tanks very possible. Perhaps it's because they're squshies, but even so It's frustrating that if you are ever caught in a situation like this alone, it only takes 1 ability to seal your fate, rather than an entire combo where if you're hit with one part, you can dodge the other and at least barely make it out alive.

NiyumeJan 11, 20182 votes

I mean that's literally every ranged mid laner. So why is it such an issue for Zoe? And in lane her Q isn't goinna do any damage at all, so it's not like she lands one and you just auto lose lane.

And, having played probably 100+ games on Zoe... the only time you legitimately one shot is when you have at least three core items (which includes a Luden's) and get a max range Q on a sleeping target (and that target has to be built glass cannon) and Luden's triggers. Excluding that... it is possible to combo someone who's at like 50-60% if you catch them out and land your whole E>Q>Empowered AA combo, and even then it's usually not enough, and you have to chase them down and finish 'em off.

Sure you can chunk people pretty well, but so can, you know, every other mage.

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean that's literally every ranged mid laner. So why is it such an issue for Zoe? And in lane her Q isn't goinna do any damage at all, so it's not like she lands one and you just auto lose lane.

And, having played probably 100+ games on Zoe... the only time you legitimately one shot is when you have at least three core items (which includes a Liandry's) and get a max range Q on a sleeping target (and that target has to be built glass cannon) and Luden's triggers. Excluding that... it is possible to combo someone who's at like 50-60% if you catch them out and land your whole E>Q>Empowered AA combo, and even then it's usually not enough, and you have to chase them down and finish 'em off.

Sure you can chunk people pretty well, but so can, you know, every other mage.

This

ChuShoeJan 11, 20182 votes

Except it's not every mid laner. Laners like lux and malzahar and maybe syndra sure, but if you get caught in the viktor stun and cass stun you aren't immediately dead. Orianna won't kill you the second she ults you.

As for the comment on zoe's damage, I don't know what else to say other than I blatantly disagree, having played tons of games against her.