@Riot,Why nerf Elise again?!

CupcakeKítty·Sep 4, 2015·61 votes·4,915 views

Do you know the state she was in pre patch 5.14? You may as well just rework her or delete her... #BetterNerfElise, seriously at 50 % win rate she is on par balanced better then she was pre 5.14 and now you're gonna nerf her again... Meanwhile toplane is taking over the ban spots.Eg. Fiora,Darius,Garen. Please look at the champs you have just reworked,Elise doesn't even hold a candle to their OP'ness level.Maybe some really doesn't want Elise to be in Worlds so they don"t have to make a skin for her.

What annoys me is that they buff Elise into viability and competitive play and she is doing much better at a 50 % win rate then they nerf her human q dmg in half and now some dps on her spiderlings,it's annoying because they just fixed her and now they're gonna do stuff that may just get her gutted again.I mean this nerf may not gut her I may be overexaggerating but it may get to a point where they just nerf her for all the wrong reasons again,like start making it a trend.

72 Comments

Only Play DariusSep 4, 201523 votes

This nerf to spiderling damage is going to hurt her A LOT. I don't think people realize that most of her late-game damage actually comes from the spiderlings.

A Miss FortuneSep 5, 20154 votes

I've only played Elise a few times, but wouldn't it also hurt her Jungle clear too? Elise is really good early game because she can gank and clear so well in combo with her sustain + spiderling tanking or doing damage to camps. Nerfing her Spiders will definitely lessen Elise's identity of an early game goddess Jungler.

NarasimhaSep 5, 20153 votes

Her early game is untouched. It's her late game that got hit, which isn't saying much in the first place.

CatSithSep 6, 20151 votes

Which is why this nerf makes no sense.

NarasimhaSep 6, 20152 votes

Eh, not entirely. Elise's problem has always been her overbearing early game. They need to do a massive reshift of her power, taking it from her early and giving it to her mid and late. Sadly, doesn't seem like thats on the schedule.

CatSithSep 6, 20151 votes

And this nerf is doing the opposite of that? lowering her late game power lol

NarasimhaSep 6, 20151 votes

Allow me to rephrase.

The nerf makes sense in a way because they want to preserve her early game power and reduce her late game power. The issue is that this is a weird and overall unnecessary nerf overall.

CatSithSep 6, 20151 votes

It doesn't make sense to me because they have said they want to give Elise some late game power and this nerf defeats that purpose entirely.

NarasimhaSep 6, 20151 votes

Yeah, that's beyond me as well. One can only hope that we can get some significant changes after Worlds.

GorgannanSep 5, 20151 votes

"Most"

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FistOfSharkieshaSep 5, 20158 votes

Her spiderlings were her clear + sustained damage. Buffing them was the only thing that made her viable, even moreso than the strong rank 1 cacoon.

Angry MonsterSep 4, 201512 votes

This hit is a way overboard consider 2 patches ago they haved human Q. But she is a lee sin counter # worlds

RetillinSep 5, 20151 votes

^ This. She hard counters Lee Sin. And heaven forbid we have a Worlds without Lee Sin being the most picked jungler.

CatSithSep 6, 20151 votes

not to mention the unwarranted buff towards his ult.

MrfishiiSep 4, 20158 votes

Totally agree. There's a handful of champions just dominating the game right now and Elise isn't one of them cough Skarner. Elise has good early game and mid game in turn for her lack-luster late game. Elise doesn't reward bad play either but rewards good play; landing a good stun can mean a huge difference, likewise mastering turret dives is another component which rewards good players. Anyone who can't proficiently play Elise is pretty useless, unlike some newly changed champions cough. At the same time, even a good Elise can be beaten, she's mediocre in team fights and again she doesn't scale well into late game.

Hate that just because she's being seen competitive she gets nerfed over solo-que champions who absolutely need a nerf.

iamleburkSep 5, 20152 votes

the thing is, competitive havent even been on the most recent patch yet. They dont know if they're most recent nerf was enough to gut her or not, and they still give her a second nerf

DepoonSep 5, 20151 votes

People are overestimating the 4% nerf way to much, they act like they cut the dmg of the smell in half but they didn't even touch the ratio or non-percent base dmg. It's hardly noticeble.

AbyssphereSep 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

People are overestimating the 4% nerf way to much, they act like they cut the dmg of the smell in half but they didn't even touch the ratio or non-percent base dmg. It's hardly noticeble.

It's 80 base damage late game on a max HP ADC (2k hp) and that's the squishiest possible target. How is that not noticeable?

CatSithSep 4, 20155 votes

Shes finally in a good spot and Riot wants to fuck that up. -.-

Hard4HamstersSep 4, 20154 votes

I don't think this is that big of a nerf to her honestly. She was stronger in 5.14 than she was in season 3 and 4 and I think this is a fair nerf considering that they buffed the shit out of them by making them do magic damage and increased the AP scaling. That probably would have been enough BEFORE the change to her E stun duration change to make her decent. I do think this change is maybe a little extreme and maybe they could increase it to 30 damage at lvl16, but Elise is going to be strong as long as she has such a powerful stun at level 1 E. She doesn't need more than that to be competitively viable at this point.

I'm honestly more upset about the Q change that didn't go through last patch. They were going to change human Q to a DOT and that would have been brilliant as it got rid of the %currentHP which would reduce her chunking ability (and with Rylais + Liandry's it would do comparable damage, if not more). But mostly, this was such a good thematic change that would make her NEUROTOXIN behave more like a NEUROTOXIN. This has always upset me and I've wanted some DOT on Elise so bad for the longest time, and instead they just said "fuck it, let's just reduce the damage".

CupcakeKíttySep 4, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=MyNamesAmsToki ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dIW4eN3I,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-04T22:50:07.800+0000)

I don't think this is that big of a nerf to her honestly. She was stronger in 5.14 than she was in season 3 and 4 and I think this is a fair nerf considering that they buffed the shit out of them by making them do magic damage and increased the AP scaling. That probably would have been enough BEFORE the change to her E stun duration change to make her decent. I do think this change is maybe a little extreme and maybe they could increase it to 30 damage at lvl16, but Elise is going to be strong as long as she has such a powerful stun at level 1 E. She doesn't need more than that to be competitively viable at this point.

I'm honestly more upset about the Q change that didn't go through last patch. They were going to change human Q to a DOT and that would have been brilliant as it got rid of the %currentHP which would reduce her chunking ability (and with Rylais + Liandry's it would do comparable damage, if not more). But mostly, this was such a good thematic change that would make her NEUROTOXIN behave more like a NEUROTOXIN. This has always upset me and I've wanted some DOT on Elise so bad for the longest time, and instead they just said "fuck it, let's just reduce the damage".

The thing is,if you build AP on Elise you're building her wrong.Purely because she's is a hybrid she needs to build her core Magic Pen items and then go tanky,so building AP is not an option for her unless you want to play her glass cannon,but even then most players build her as magic pen core then go off-tank and this nerf to her spiderlings messes with that building because you don't build AP on Elise and the spiders scale of magic damage now.And to make it worse it's late game damage which is the worst because Elise is awful late game.

ReshiKillimSep 4, 20153 votes

Full AP Elise is quite viable though. There are people who play Full AP Elise in high tier. It does disgusting amounts of damage too.

Hard4HamstersSep 4, 20152 votes

Well. I do agree with you that you should be building a pen based off tank build on Elise for your games as she does fall off in the lategame, but that is still a good 100-200 AP in core items if you get a couple of these item 3001 item 3151 item 3116 . I think the problem is that people are building full tank on Elise and still finding success with her. And this is an attempt to make Elise have to build a little riskier to output the same amount of damage.

Her damage SHOULD fall off lategame, but as she has so much %HP damage, this is not that easy, so taking away from her spiderlings was probably decided as a good way to take away some of her lategame damage, while keeping her early game damage intact.

Elise is debateably the strongest early game jungler in the game right now. She should have to make sacrifices in her kit to make her less of a threat lategame if she is to have such a strong early game. Which this change does not really affect.

You state that now Elise's spiders do magic damage and that this is worse because why? Having them do magic damage is better for her MPen builds and there are less defensive options for magic damage, so magic damage is much better than when they used to do physical damage.

Lastly, I know this is small, but they are giving some compensation for this as now spiderlings take 5% less damage from AOE than they used to.

AbyssphereSep 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=MyNamesAmsToki ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dIW4eN3I,comment-id=000700000001,timestamp=2015-09-04T23:19:32.520+0000)

Well. I do agree with you that you should be building a pen based off tank build on Elise for your games as she does fall off in the lategame, but that is still a good 100-200 AP in core items if you get a couple of these . I think the problem is that people are building full tank on Elise and still finding success with her. And this is an attempt to make Elise have to build a little riskier to output the same amount of damage.

Her damage SHOULD fall off lategame, but as she has so much %HP damage, this is not that easy, so taking away from her spiderlings was probably decided as a good way to take away some of her lategame damage, while keeping her early game damage intact.

Elise is debateably the strongest early game jungler in the game right now. She should have to make sacrifices in her kit to make her less of a threat lategame if she is to have such a strong early game. Which this change does not really affect.

You state that now Elise's spiders do magic damage and that this is worse because why? Having them do magic damage is better for her MPen builds and there are less defensive options for magic damage, so magic damage is much better than when they used to do physical damage.

Lastly, I know this is small, but they are giving some compensation for this as now spiderlings take 5% less damage from AOE than they used to.

Unfortunately I think this nerf favours tank builds. AP Elise gets in and out quickly, so spiderlings dying quickly hardly matters. Tank Elise stays in fights for a noticeably longer duration, so spiderlings dying quickly means her damage drops off significantly. Her spiders doing less damage but having longer to output that damage is significantly better for tank Elise because tank Elise stays in fights long enough for her spiders to appreciate the extra longevity.

This change also makes her a worse duelist, and only AP Elise ever duels people after early levels, so again this is a heavier nerf to damage builds for her.

This change is hardly a nerf to tank Elise but a significant hit to AP Elise. It's ridiculous given it's the former that is played in the LCS constantly.

Hard4HamstersSep 4, 20151 votes

eh. You do have some points in that, but I still think that this is to reward players for building more damage items (or more not punish them for building pure tank). My reasoning is that you are looking to burst down your opponent as Elise if you are going damage, so you won't be looking to get more than a few autos off before you have them killed using your human W and your Q's so this really hurts tank elise more as she is looking to do consistent dps and if you are missing out on 15 x 5 = 75 damage per second with base values you are missing out on a couple sunfire capes worth of damage right there.

FantasySniperSep 4, 20154 votes

I am going to argue here that her win-rate only looks like that because of how popular she is. Her early game is monstrous, and with any sort of lead, she snowballs until literally everyone's full build.

That said, they're taking her into the way wrong direction here. Her late game needs the opposite of nerfing.

Oerba No NajaSep 4, 20153 votes

and if you fail your early , you lost the game . elise is balanced now

FantasySniperSep 5, 20152 votes

That's not how this game works, bud.

Snowballing off of an early advantage is one thing, but when you already had the advantage to begin with because of your kit, you get bullshit worse than Lee Sin.

Oerba No NajaSep 5, 20151 votes

then why elise should have a good late game if she is a snow ball champ ?

FantasySniperSep 5, 20152 votes

She should have a better late game and a significantly nerfed early game. She's extremely lopsided in power based on game phases, and it's the main thing that's preventing her from ever being properly balanced.

Oerba No NajaSep 5, 20151 votes

0 SENSE , there is some champion you pick them for early game snowball and noting more if you fail your early ganks and your lanes dont get fed the game you willl be hard , but that the game , imagine if every champ have a good early , a good mid game , a good late game , the game would be so fcking boring and elise cant be good late game anyways BECAUSE OF HER KIT and not her numbers

FantasySniperSep 5, 20152 votes

"Failing your early ganks" is a very high order, since they're supposed to have fantastic ganks in the first place. You're depending on the fact that there's an equal chance of failure for both early gankers and non-early gankers, but the fact is that early gankers are early gankers because they have such a high rate of success. When they succeed more often than not, and then also snowball off of that success, they have an extremely strong advantage until the game into late phase - which won't happen if they succeed to snowball and end the game, which (again) happens much more often than not.

I never said it had to be achieved through only numbers. Elise needs a straight up rework, because her playstyle is unhealthy and obviously impossible to balance.

TotalisSep 6, 20154 votes

I completely agree. Elise is finally playable again and is honestly in a good spot, with there being tons of other bigger threats (mord, vayne,fiora,gp, garen, darius, skarner). She doesn't need this nerf. #savethespider

CatSithSep 7, 20151 votes

Yeah there is no reason put her on top of the nerf list before everyone else. Idk why riot always do this with Elise.

Elise , SAVETHEQUEEN

SkypualSep 4, 20153 votes

I agree, I'm so sad and I recently bought Elise.

PokladnicaZlaSep 5, 20153 votes

Is this an overnerf? Yes Does she need nerfing? Yes,haven't you played 1 game against her ?

I agree with you that those nerfs are far too dramatic,but what else do you suggest? She the 4th most banned champion (LoLKing->All regions),while the 1st is Skarner,2ndMorde and 3th Fiora. Winrates Platinum Max ~54% , Min ~49% , Diamond Max ~55% ,Min ~49.

I know how frustraiting it must to see the champion being buffed to ˝Viability˝then being gutted again into Cassiopeia tier,but you also have to undertsand that she is currently annoying to deal with and possibly borken. Instead of just posting ˝RITO don't gut her!˝ ,post how they could cut her power without leaving her worthless in game.Maybe a different effect on her Q when used on champions and minions/monsters? You seem pretty passionet about her,come up with something great.

Xela SyabSep 5, 20153 votes

guys she's wrecking in competitive play. The best players IN THE WORLD are having trouble with her and she snowballs every lane she ganks in.

AbyssphereSep 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xela Syab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dIW4eN3I,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-09-05T06:40:19.997+0000)

guys she's wrecking in competitive play. The best players IN THE WORLD are having trouble with her and she snowballs every lane she ganks in.

Pros haven't even played with her since the Neurotoxin nerf went through. You have no idea how she'd do after that nerf.

CatSithSep 4, 20152 votes

Since her last nerf Elise's lowered to a moderate state of 50% win rate. Which is reasonable and the best spot she has ever been in. Riot always takes things a little too far towards balancing Elise, while other champions get free passes.

The Bearded BardSep 5, 20152 votes

It's probably because she's got a crazy strong early game, and builds full tank while still doing a shit ton of damage late game.

TotalisSep 6, 20152 votes

gotta bump this thread, spread the truth

idokiSep 4, 20151 votes

Rito be like

warpenguin555Sep 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Rito be like

it doesnt work...

idokiSep 6, 20151 votes

The link on the site broke O.o IT'S LITERALLY THE ONLY LINK THAT IS BROKEN THERE It's a link to LoL wiki Katarina's page, to her quote "Why? Because I can."

ScarnMichaelScarSep 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do you know the state she was in pre patch 5.14? You may as well just rework her or delete her... #BetterNerfElise, seriously at 50 % win rate she is on par balanced better then she was pre 5.14 and now you're gonna nerf her again... Meanwhile toplane is taking over the ban spots.Eg. Fiora,Darius,Garen. Please look at the champs you have just reworked,Elise doesn't even hold a candle to their OP'ness level.Maybe some really doesn't want Elise to be in Worlds so they don"t have to make a skin for her.

What annoys me is that they buff Elise into viability and competitive play and she is doing much better at a 50 % win rate then they nerf her human q dmg in half and now some dps on her spiderlings,it's annoying because they just fixed her and now they're gonna do stuff that may just get her gutted again.I mean this nerf may not gut her I may be overexaggerating but it may get to a point where they just nerf her for all the wrong reasons again,like start making it a trend.

because elise when she's strong or even balanced isn't stupidly toxic at all nooo.

cleanup crew elise. you at 10% hp? spiderform q bye bye you a tank? e q w r q w e q dead. and this rotation happens much faster than it sounds thanks to changing forms.

elise is like nidalee and jayce. impossible to balance correctly. theyre either bullshittingly strong or ridiculously weak because of the way their kits were designed.

just rework elise because her current kit is just pure unfair toxic bullshit and will never be allowed to be strong again.

AbyssphereSep 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

because elise when she's strong or even balanced isn't stupidly toxic at all nooo.

cleanup crew elise. you at 10% hp? spiderform q bye bye you a tank? e q w r q w e q dead. and this rotation happens much faster than it sounds thanks to changing forms.

elise is like nidalee and jayce. impossible to balance correctly. theyre either bullshittingly strong or ridiculously weak because of the way their kits were designed.

just rework elise because her current kit is just pure unfair toxic bullshit and will never be allowed to be strong again.

Yes, Elise is definitely the only champion that can kill you if you have 10% HP. Executes are clearly just toxic.

Oerba No NajaSep 5, 20151 votes

Darius