How will Riot avoid balancing champions around a specific keystone?

ToddlerPacifier·Nov 11, 2017·163 votes·5,489 views

I'm sitting here thinking how amazing some runes are on certain champions. For example, Glacial Augment applies the melee slow on GP Q. When some options, such as Kleptomancy and Glacial Augment have special synergy with a champion like him, it's going to distort the landscape and make him much stronger when he chooses them over others. This will lead to nerfs and then he will be EVEN LESS capable of going alternative keystones since he was balanced around super synergistic runes. This cycle would defeat the entire "playstyle" concept of runes since you'd then need to go the 1-2 absolutely strongest for your champion or you are no longer playing a viable champion. How can this be avoided? This happened last season too with DFT and Fervor for example.

88 Comments

SirΤeemοNov 11, 201789 votes

long story short : they won't .

Teridax68Nov 12, 201715 votes

Agreed, and I think the issue isn't simply that they won't, but that they can't. If a single champion can increase their win rate by a flat 5% or so just by going for a specific rune build, but is balanced otherwise, they will always go for that build. This means every champion will end up having to be balanced around their most successful rune build, otherwise they will be too strong with it if they are at a good baseline amount of power. This is one of the reasons why I'm personally not in favor of any sort of rune system, even if the current one is an improvement from its predecessors, as it will always boil down to a tiny fraction of the choices it promises to offer, and screw over those who don't go for the most optimal builds.

wobajiNov 11, 201739 votes

Perhaps they can remove some special champion synergies. For example, maybe Glacial Augment should work only on actual attacks and not abilities that apply on-hits such as Ezreal Q or GP Q. These synergies tend to make keystones too weak for everyone else in order to balance out the edge cases. This makes them excessively niche and champion dependent.

Dr PoroNov 11, 201714 votes

Or make ranged abilities get the penalties of ranged champions.

Blackstone01Nov 11, 20176 votes

Problem is a big point of GP Q was always that it's effectively a melee attack.

DeadUnbornNov 12, 20172 votes

what other benefit does it have other than Glaciar augment and hydra (which isn't optimal on him as stattik is better)?

Morgan le FeyNov 12, 20173 votes

The movespeed for Rage (Phage passive) is halved for range, so being melee means he can proc that with his Q. Grasp of the Undying seems like a pretty great one for a potential tank GP off-build down the road, and that has less than half effect for a ranged attack. Also for that pocket tank GP pick, Dead Man's Plate doesn't slow if used with a ranged attack. Make it a support tank for some reason (or just ADC GP? :O), and you also lose your Relic Shield execute. Frozen Mallet is just like Glacial Augment in that it applies a smaller slow if you're melee. Ranged attacks are significantly less effective for the Duskblade proc, too. If it's ranged, you immediately have to ask if he can build Runaan's.

Not all of these are necessarily good picks, but they all exist and need to be taken into account. There's also future stuff - for instance, I can totally see Kleptomancy or Dark Harvest being nerfed for ranged champs if Ezreal gets too broken, but both are great thematically for GP.

DeadUnbornNov 12, 20171 votes

yeah all you are mentioning is troll builds. Phage would apply normally even if GP Q wasn't considered melee

Morgan le FeyNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

yeah all you are mentioning is troll builds. Phage would apply normally even if GP Q wasn't considered melee

Um... no it wouldn't. Phage's movespeed buff is halved when applied by ranged champs. That's why it's not totally broken on, say, Bruiser!Ashe or something dumb like that. It's one of his core items and its passive would only be half as effective on his Q if it was considered a ranged attack.

Tank Ekko was a troll build until it was the most op thing in the game. A week before tank Ekko got big, I was getting flamed for playing bruiser Ekko top with RoA and IBG (speaking of, I forgot IBG would be less effective on ranged attacks too). The meta changes. You can't make a huge sweeping thing that changes the definition of how a champion works without thinking about how it could affect that champion in the future. One of the things that has, for a long time, defined GP mechanics is that his Q functions as a melee attack. It doesn't make any sense to rip that identity from him for a momentary balance thing.

DeadUnbornNov 12, 20172 votes

Um... no it wouldn't. Phage's movespeed buff is halved when applied by ranged champs. That's why it's not totally broken on, say, Bruiser!Ashe or something dumb like that. It's one of his core items and its passive would only be half as effective on his Q if it was considered a ranged attack.

Go on to the practice tool mode with kayle and proc phase rush, then come back and tell me what you come up with.

Tank Ekko was a troll build until it was the most op thing in the game. A week before tank Ekko got big, I was getting flamed for playing bruiser Ekko top with RoA and IBG (speaking of, I forgot IBG would be less effective on ranged attacks too)

Not relevant

The meta changes. You can't make a huge sweeping thing that changes the definition of how a champion works without thinking about how it could affect that champion in the future. One of the things that has, for a long time, defined GP mechanics is that his Q functions as a melee attack. It doesn't make any sense to rip that identity from him for a momentary balance thing

That is my point, you say Q being melee defines GP, I say it doesn't, as at least for the last 4 years and a half none of the items that you are talking about have been core on him

Morgan le FeyNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Go on to the practice tool mode with kayle and proc phase rush, then come back and tell me what you come up with.

Why Phase Rush? How is that relevant? The only advantage you get from being melee with Phase Rush is slow resist. Phage gives half speed if you're ranged.

Not relevant

That is my point, you say Q being melee defines GP, I say it doesn't, as at least for the last 4 years and a half none of the items that you are talking about have been core on him

TF has been core on him basically forever. But that's not my point, anyways. My point is that restricting future build because of his interaction with a single keystone is short-sighted.

DeadUnbornNov 12, 20171 votes

Sure bud Ill spoonfeed it to you. Effects that buff champs like phade rush and phage take into account the champion range type. On the other hand on hit effect that affect the enemy use the attack type. My poiint is that given gps track record from the past 4 years gp q being melee has not been representative of him, as you stated

Morgan le FeyNov 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sure bud Ill spoonfeed it to you. Effects that buff champs like phade rush and phage take into account the champion range type. On the other hand on hit effect that affect the enemy use the attack type. My poiint is that given gps track record from the past 4 years gp q being melee has not been representative of him, as you stated

I wanted to avoid this, but I apparently can't, so I just went and tested it to confirm:

Gnar:

Baby form w/o Phage boost: 365 With Phage: 375 Big with w/o: 335 With: 355

Ivern:

Normal w/o: 335 With: 355 Bush w/o: 335 Bush with: 345

Kayle:

Normal w/o: 345 With: 365 E w/o: 345 E with: 355

And so I'll repeat: Trinity Force, and so Phage, have been core on GP for years. Even if it wasn't, nerfing him over a single keystone is still short-sighted.

DeadUnbornNov 13, 20171 votes

Lol you are lying right there. Kayle only has her attack range increased when her E is active. Hence why Yasuo's windwall does not stop her attacks. I already explained how trinity force could interact in a consistent way with GP's Q being ranged, go read it on my previous pos tif you want

Morgan le FeyNov 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lol you are lying right there.

No you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBe8FfJwIoA

If it didn't change her champion type, one of her core items - Runaan's - would be unusable, anyways.

And seriously, don't go accusing people of things without testing yourself at least. In this day and age, it quite literally takes five minutes to disprove you. Heck, the only reason it even took that long was because I didn't have a YouTube account for League stuff yet.

Edit: I shouldn't have to mention this, but Kayle's AAs go through wind wall because they don't use projectiles. It also doesn't block Thresh's attacks for the same reason. It has nothing to do with whether she's ranged or not.

Dr PoroNov 12, 20172 votes

Having 'troll builds' that benefit from hiq Q being melee is actually a good thing. It allows for more creative paths to take. When I suggested to make his Q count as a ranged ability, I thought it would open up more different play styles, but perhaps, after seeing the potential synergies in troll builds, it's better to keep GP unique as the champ that can do these things. The existance of Phage's synergy is imo an argument to remove it, because triforce is too core on him (would allow other build options). But his other synergies, with items that he doesn't build traditionally, are actually arguments to keep his Q as melee.

DeadUnbornNov 12, 20171 votes

If you want to trap people into buying suboptimal items then yeah. Other than Q proking tiamat there are no real limitations to the Q being counted as ranged, as all the other items and effects listed are already bad on him

Dr PoroNov 13, 20171 votes

Just like support MF and jungle Ezreal are bad ideas... Until someone does it in worlds. (I know it's still bad in soloQ)

DeadUnbornNov 13, 20171 votes

Historically that has not been true for GP. It is safe to assume then because of how the champ works that those items won't be optimal in the future. If something radically changes were GP gets f'd up and for some weird reason needs to build tanky, Riot can change it back 3 years down the line from now or whatever. Spoiler alert: if GP could ever build tanky as an optimal build, then he would not be healthy because of how his kit is designed and would needed changes.

Also JG Ez and support MF were a thing a LONG time ago. Since his rework the tankiest GP has ever build was when Sterak's was broken he would buy it... and that is about it

FawkseaNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps they can remove some special champion synergies. For example, maybe Glacial Augment should work only on actual attacks and not abilities that apply on-hits such as Ezreal Q or GP Q. These synergies tend to make keystones too weak for everyone else in order to balance out the edge cases. This makes them excessively niche and champion dependent.

if that was the way they'd do things, some items wouldn't have been removed/gutted because of ezreal abusing it, instead of just going "hey he can't interact like this because no" they nerf the whole item

EternalSaiyanNov 11, 201711 votes

Dude I swear Riot is now led by this guy Zed Gone are the days of Shen

notice me Sin piNov 11, 201710 votes

just remove the on-hit interaction for Gangplank Ezreal , that way their close ties to the keystones itself is removed. Besides, those interactions almost always had been very toxic in the previous seasons as well.

GraćSięNieDaNov 11, 20175 votes

What is so toxic about the only attribute that makes a champion viable in lane? Had a blue Ezreal slow you down recently? Or a Stattik GP actually deal damage to you before dying?

NineTailedMysticNov 11, 201726 votes

Ezreal breaks everything he touches because of his Q.

GraćSięNieDaNov 11, 20171 votes

He abuses Kleptomancy, that is true. He's not the best choice for an ADC, though. Never had been. You do realize his Q is probably the most unreliable source of damage in teamfights, right?

DarkRitualNov 11, 20172 votes

True, but he's supposed to poke people out with Q before teamfights ever get to happen.

GraćSięNieDaNov 11, 20172 votes

This is the same thing MF, Xayah and Kog can do, although Ezreal is both safer to poke with (blink) and less effective, as his damage can be blocked by minions and summons effectively. It's a trade-off. If Ezreal ever required any tweaks, I wouldn't rob him of his Q's utility, but rather remove Q's on-hit CD reduction for his blink to make him weigh his teamfight choices more carefully.

DarkRitualNov 12, 20175 votes

I think his CD-reduction has it's place somewhere though, unless he gets flat cooldown adjustments. Having his E mark enemies it hits and grant CD reductions on spell hits to them might be plausible, and would fix his W being a one-point-wonder if the reduction scaled with rank.

Blackstone01Nov 11, 201720 votes

Right now sure. But it's a rule/meme that every season Ezreal breaks something meant for others such as jungle items.

Subject 5Nov 11, 20179 votes

The keystones feel like they are incredibly focused on the carry role, and not so much the other way around:

Want more damage? We got'chuh with 3 amazing new runes!

Want more tank! We got'chuh! Just sacrifice 10% of your early game damage that you never had in the first place as a tank, and then get an extra 1 - 1 - 1 - 100 HP! That's a 1 with 2 zeros behind it!

Don't you worry though, I know you tanks just LOVE protecting your adc - so we decided to make like the only tank rune that is actually good, the one that sucks off the adc!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77B-FO_fQms <------ Riot HQ

Here at Riot - we completely understand that every champion has hits people 3 exact times - so why not make a keystone that's fit for everybody?

Vladimir "But what ab-"

Shut the fuck up Vlad, we're talking about actual REAL champions here!

Nautilus "At least with second wind I can lane ag- . . . - . . ."

Vayne Quinn JarvanIV Jax Jayce Garen Darius Trundle Tryndamere Illaoi Irelia LeeSin Nasus "Lane against who, Nautilus? Lane against who?"

Nautilus ". . . Malphite . . ."

GayFluffyUnicornNov 12, 20171 votes

If you want to deal dmg and carry how about not playing a supportive class like tanks?

It Hertz When IPNov 12, 20172 votes

There's a difference between wanting to carry and wanting to just not be a wet noodle in teamfights. Take away any threat a tank might pose, and tanks just become CC bots, with whoever brings the most CC at any given point outstripping the rest.

Over InnsmouthNov 12, 20175 votes

"But what ab-"

Shut the fuck up Vlad, we're talking about actual REAL champions here!

One day, my precious baby will have an actual Keystone to synergize with. Granted, he's not in a bad place, but still...

holds a blood pack and sobs quietly

FeathermaneNov 11, 20177 votes

Riot is wrongheaded in this. This is how things were SUPPOSED TO GO: You have a certain playstyle - you select your runes/masteries to accomodate your playstyle. This is how things DO GO: You choose the most powerful runes/masteries, and adjust your playstyle to match. Runes of any kind seem to be a bad idea overall.

SangreDeNocheNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Riot is wrongheaded in this. This is how things were SUPPOSED TO GO: You have a certain playstyle - you select your runes/masteries to accomodate your playstyle. This is how things DO GO: You choose the most powerful runes/masteries, and adjust your playstyle to match. Runes of any kind seem to be a bad idea overall.

Couldn't Riot circumvent this issue by having you choose passives on level up like HOTS?

ResolutionNov 11, 20177 votes

Some keystones don't work on specific champions. For example, you can't get the boots keystone on Cass.

They already have a system in place to alter/disable interactions towards certain champions depending on how they interact with Champions. You most likely will see future "subtext" like half % on Gangpank for example. Where you can still run it but it won't proc as much.

VexingRavenNov 12, 20177 votes

They will do what they have always done with problematic items and masteries: Nerf the champions that use them, while the people who play those champions scream how bad an idea that is.

QuephaNov 11, 20176 votes

They want champions to be better with some keystones than others, why would they not? The only way that every champion would get equal value out of every keystone is if every keystone was exactly the same.

LetYourSleepWaneNov 11, 201719 votes

{quoted}

They want champions to be better with some keystones than others, why would they not? The only way that every champion would get equal value out of every keystone is if every keystone was exactly the same.

If some keystones are just blatantly more powerful on some champions than others, it becomes much less about playstyle. This means there will just be a clearly best option in nearly all cases due to just the champion's specific synergy rather than anything related to your team composition, play style, etc. That's the problem with special rune synergies.

QuephaNov 11, 20175 votes

Not if the keystones actually work very differently from each other. There are always going to be situations where a slow is better than damage. And there are always going to be situations where 100 damage on a 10 second cooldown is less useful than 250 damage on a 30 second cooldown.

Some strategies are going to be dominant, but part of the game is finding those dominant strategies and then exploiting or finding counters to them.

LaughingStaplerNov 11, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Not if the keystones actually work very differently from each other. There are always going to be situations where a slow is better than damage. And there are always going to be situations where 100 damage on a 10 second cooldown is less useful than 250 damage on a 30 second cooldown.

Some strategies are going to be dominant, but part of the game is finding those dominant strategies and then exploiting or finding counters to them.

Yes, of course and that should happen. The problem is when the decision between slow or damage is very much "What champion am I playing and does he proc. Glacial Augment on a ranged ability for a melee slow? " etc. rather than "What's their comp.? What does our team need? How do I want to play this game (kite, all-in)? etc." Ridiculously good synergies make runes a non-choice.

Besides being pigeonholed into specific runes, really good synergies for certain runes can warp the meta (much like great Ardent Censer users did). What is playable can become a question of "Who uses X especially well?"

QuephaNov 11, 20172 votes

Gangplank synergizes amazingly well with three different keystones, and he isn't that bad with 2 or 3 others either, I doubt you have to worry about him being locked into one specific rune set anytime soon.

MangelinaJolieNov 12, 20171 votes

See: Lethal Tempo Kog. Why ever take anything else?

Morgan le FeyNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

See: Lethal Tempo Kog. Why ever take anything else?

AP Kog.

MangelinaJolieNov 12, 20172 votes

Still think Lethal Tempo is ideal. His W is strong even in an AP build.

PapaGreg21Nov 12, 20176 votes

I can answer that easily for you. Riot will nerf the champion and then the rune. Then they won't restore the champion. As a Shyvana main the last few years, this is known.

CorriandrNov 12, 20174 votes

Would you like that wrapped as Sejuani'd or Shyvana'd? It is the same price.

bànNov 12, 20176 votes

ditch the idea of gimmicky runes and masteries for season 9 and work on things like new maps, new items etc.

Sona PingNov 11, 20175 votes

{quoted}

How will Riot avoid balancing champions around a specific keystone?

They can't. It's unavoidable. Unless all champions are made basically the same and have all real differences, all their beneficial strengths or attributes between them removed or made inconsequential, those difference will unavoidably lead to differences in outcomes when using other different options' strengths.

The only way would be to remove any real strategic diversity in those options. That's the only way you can make those options not matter more to one than another.