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@Riot, Subclasses and Rengar's current state.

ELOisaLIE··8 votes·7,158 views

Ok Riot, just went and read that whole subclass thing you're implementing to further differentiate the champions, and have to admit it's a great idea and you guys did a good job with it, so far at least.

My questions involve Rengar in specific, as in his role/class/subclass/kit and so on.

For starters you guys have him currently in the slayer class, and I assume he's further on the assassin side of things since he's not the best skirmisher at all. The thing is he doesn't really fit the definition for assassin that you gave, in fact he fits almost perfectly into the diver definition!

The thing is, I know when he was released he was supposed to be a diver type brawler champion, and his first full rework was designed to lean him away from the 100-0 death from stealth playstyle and more of a run down fighter playstyle, you guys said as much in the notes about his rework. But now it seems you've almost entirely given up on that original identity and have just settled on the ignorant communities view of him as "just a bursty assassin."

But I feel like that's just cause of his burst damage alone, because he has none of the strengths the other assassins have! Your definitions of the subclasses say as much.

So the main question I have is do you guys plan on rectifying this? Will you try once again to turn him into the diver he is supposed to be and was originally designed to be? Or will you just give up and make him a more easily balanced assassin who's only purpose in a team isn't to suicide bomb on the enemy carries? I have always preferred playing Rengar during his periods of "Tankgar dominance," since it feels more appropriate identity wise (in that he hunts people/creatures down and chases them for the thrill of the fight, not a quick out of nowhere kill), so I would prefer it if you guys tried again to make him more of a fighter like he was originally supposed to be, but even if you balance him more around being an assassin then I'd be fine with that as well. I'm just tired of being pigeonholed into full glass canon assassin just cause my team rages at me if I ever build any sort of defensive items, even if I'm the one carrying and still destroying enemy carries, because it's such a one-dimensional feast or famine type playstyle that cause either your team to rage about Rengar or the enemy team to rage about Rengar, at the moment it's just not healthy for the game.

If a Riot employee actually reads this I would really appreciate some kind of insight into where you internally plan on moving him, if at all, it's just with the assassin update coming sometime after the mage update and the new subclass definitions it feels like it's time to take another swing at reworking Rengar's kit.

23 Comments

RiotMeddler8 votes

We'll be doing another class update at the end of the year. Divers and Assassins are the two best arguments for that spot at this point. Given Rengar falls somewhat into each camp I expect we'll do some work on him either way as a result. My personal take is that's more likely to push him towards diver characteristics than assassin ones, though I'd imagine he'll probably still have some elements of each regardless.

ELOisaLIE2 votes

That's awesome to hear, thank you so much for taking the time to respond :)

Woook3r1 votes

What about graves. Hes a diver marksman assassin with two dashes and 100% bonus effective hp.

Is that an acceptable hybrid? What future rework will we see him in?

DorkunedAuras1 votes

where is that 100% bonus effective hp coming from?

Woook3r1 votes

gaining 100 armor and mr always doubles your effective hp, I think. at 100 armor, you get 50% reduction. at 200, its 75%. at 300 its 87%.

graves gets 100 armor and mr from his w. That calculates to 100% bonus effective hp.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

it does not.

100 armor gives essentially your max health again against max hp. Your effective hp is increased by 1% of your max hp against that damage type per point of the stat.

So it goes 100 armor 50%, 200 armor is 66%, 300 armor is 75%

Remember this is NOT diminishing returns.

Woook3r1 votes

Physical effective health = Health × (1 + (Armor / 100))

dont take my word for it. this is from the leag of legends wikia.

Why do you come on the boards and comment with a misunderstanding of the game that is this large?

DorkunedAuras1 votes

... that formula actually verifies my math, not yours.

Woook3r1 votes

...you get 100% more hp, per 100 armor.

Woook3r1 votes

ur right on the percentages. original claim stands.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Since Irelia also falls basically under both am I right in guessing the "rework" Morello has spoke of for as longf as I have been playing the game (riven patch) might actually happen?

Fuzz25 votes

Please for the love of god do not rework rengar or atleast do it very lightly.. The main reason he has such a dedicated player base is his current identity. He's a diver skirmisher that can't brawl without going in at the right time. He's an assassin that doesn't have the assassination tools other has and relies on comboing perfectly, and crits. He doesn't fit in either but right in between. And thats where the people like him. If you go on the rengarmains subreddit you will see that almost the entire community plays as an assassin. Moving him away from that will lose the interest of a ton of the player base.

SoCal1 votes

Even when significantly underpowered in terms of damage Rengar mains have always been the most persistent in terms of overcoming the difficulties and challenges of each new nerf to the champion. The reason Rengar is so strong is because of his playerbase. We have thousands of hours on Rengar. Fucking thousands.

Rengar has a real flow of the champion. You have to weave and carefully knit in auto attacks. As a long time Rengar main I really don't care if I can't one shot. Just make sure he still is an extremely high skill champion whose reliance on weaving auto attacks together like a Tekken fighter weaves together combos (which is why we like Ferocity so much).

Weaving is honestly the kind of description we're looking for when making changes to Rengar. Don't ruin the basket, you won't ruin this thread. summoner 11

Veraska3 votes

On one hand, rengar doing his thing of just blowing up squishies is a cool thing, you can find rengar one shot montages all over the place and their are jokes snd stuff about it so it has value, but I tend to agree it's a bummer that rengar is such a cool character but he feels too feast or famine, I'd like to be able to play him without needing a "get ultra fed or you're useless" mentality

I like bruiser rengar a lot even if he doesn't really have the tools to succeed with it

ELOisaLIE3 votes

I find one-shot montages to be kind of boring, "been there done that," ya know? I'm always far more impressed by Rengar players who can utilize his passives to great effect, in usually a more bruiser type build, like Dandy a couple years ago at worlds.

I do agree though, feast or famine types are kind of annoying to play as and to play against.

Veraska1 votes

{quoted}

I find one-shot montages to be kind of boring, "been there done that," ya know? I'm always far more impressed by Rengar players who can utilize his passives to great effect, in usually a more bruiser type build, like Dandy a couple years ago at worlds.

I do agree though, feast or famine types are kind of annoying to play as and to play against.

They ain't fit everyone, but people enjoy them so there is value, that's more or less what I'm saying, I think it's a bummer that it often feels like that's rengars only card in his hand and if he can't play it he's fucked

ELOisaLIE1 votes

Yeah agreed once again.

What I find even more annoying is that when you do build more bruiser or even tank, either cause you're behind, have no other tank on your team, enemy team hardcounters assassins, etc, and your team just lays into you with about as much negativity as they can muster just cause you the Rengar didn't build full glass canon! All cause in their little minds that's the only thing he can do, they are entirely ignorant of everything in his kit aside from that one-shot combo always featured in the one-shot montages.

Granted when he has the opportunity to build like that and run rampant it is when he's at his strongest right now, but a Rengar can't build like that EVERY single game, I mean he's not even supposed to! lol

Would be nice if I could play him as a fighter again and not be harassed even when hard carrying... got a pentakill as tank Rengar top once, and it wasn't like my entire team was alive and I was jacking kills either, was just me and the supp Alistar left alive when I killed the last two people, with Ali's help ofc. Still got harassed for not going assassin that game.... even after I got a pentakill and ended up going like 12/3/9 or something like that :P lol

Fuzz22 votes

He's only feast or famine in the hands of amateurs.

Chaos6891 votes

I prefer being able to play him top and OUTPLAY as opposed to being yet another tank. I am SOOOOOO sick of bruisers and would prefer to NOT see my absolute favorite champ ruined. If he is, i'm most likely done wiht this game.

Joe Dredd2 votes

Rengar is a slayer for like 90% of the game

ELOisaLIE2 votes

Sorry but your lack of context has left me at a loss as to what you're talking about.....

Are you talking about his timeline? As in when he was released, when he was reworked, and so on up until this patch of this season? Cause you'd be wrong, look at Riot's notes on him, his design, and his rework design, he was supposed to be a fighter. Not too mention his prolonged periods where he was a tank top laner.

And sorry to say but if you're talking about where I said he fits the diver description better then you'd still be wrong. I can link the article or even just the descriptions if you need me to, just going to read them isn't hard though, I'd recommend it.

Joe Dredd2 votes

oh shit mb, i got the things messed up. I meant skirmisher for 90% and then he transitions into an assassin. I read it. And rengar isn't a diver. there are three differences between assassins and divers. assassins have high burst, are squishy, and low cc. Divers have medium burst, aren't squishy, and have moderate cc. And by rengar being a skirmisher for 90% of the game, I mean that for 90% of the game, (in a non cherry picked example) rengar isn't insta killing you. He picks quick fights around his empowered abilities.

Blåbæret1 votes

Wat? Rengar doesn't instakill squishies? Are we playing the same game?

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