Why are Zyra's cast times still so long?

An Undead brat··22 votes·1,741 views

Seriously, we are curious why she is played exclusively support, when she's just ridiculously slow for mid and her range! Yes, there are other slower champions, but those possess a range that helps them to survive!

Her spells and cast times are so slow that you don't even need boots to dodge them, even when they are already cast. Sure, it's way harder in botlane where there are two enemies to focus on, but in the midlane, where 4/5 champions have dashes and other mobility spells, you need to have godlike prediction (compared to other champions) and hope they are bad. It's like playing against Yasuo reverted, because not being able to influence the trade comes from your champion, not enemy, but still from the enemy player.

Slowly she has been destroyed again because of the support role and is now unplayable. You try to cast Q on max range and only thing enemy needs to do is to walk to you, because not only he'll easily dodge the spell, but also gets in their range (if they need to, otherwise they won't even have to dodge) and actually get to you before the cast time ends.

Now I'm not asking for her ranges to get buffed, no, god that would be disgusting. I wanna ask, NO, I BEG! Can please be Zyra's cast times reduced? 0.75 s on E is just awful. The projectile itself is slow, stilly very easy to dodge, but PLEASE make it so it means she instantly dies if she tries to cast it, because before she's able to move again, Fizz's ult will reach her two times!

0.75 s --> 0.6-0.4 on E Now I'm not sure and can't find the exact cast times of other spells, but they feel clunky, too.

EDIT: Wait what? Where is the hate? Do people really agree with me for once? plantgasm

62 Comments

Cosmic Warper6 votes

I feel like her old Q paradigm (the circle) was actually better for mid lane. Now to dodge her q you just walk back because it's a thin horizontal line skillshot rather than a circular one. It's also worse for waveclearing compared to old Q.

An Undead brat1 votes

What I think about why this shape was implemented (besides the Brand's W similarity) is that you can actually aim better to summon specific seeds, which the circle shape could've miss or not hit at all.

But this change rendered the spell itself as a damaging ability very weak.

Jinzo Torrance1 votes

Cast it sideways on the wave, what I mean is instead of casting it when you are between the middle of the lane and your tower, cast it from between the middle lane and the sidebushes, I think you can hit all 6 minions like this; Malzahar's Q is similar and I can hit most of them, but IIRC Zyra's Q is a bit larger so you should be all able to hit all of them.

LankPants1 votes

That requires you to run to the side of the lane every wave, which is inherently risky because it gives the jungler an opening to jump on you. It's not ever going to be worth the risk.

Jinzo Torrance1 votes

I mean, you can ward the bush near the lane or the single bush in the river, or you can look at the map and see if the enemy jungler is showing up on the map. I do it all the time with Malzahar and you won't die to the jungler if you're smart about when you do it.

LankPants1 votes

You can't keep it up all the time and even with a ward many junglers can just jump the wall and get on top of you from FoW anyway if you're too near it.

This is something that may work at lower ranks, but I can tell you that if I saw you doing this over and over I would exploit it.

Jinzo Torrance1 votes

Well, when Autolykus (NA Malzahar main in Challenger) goes midlane with Malzahar, does it pretty frequently when he has the side warded and never gets ingaged on when doing it, so you're just being camped hard or having bad map awareness.

Vekkna5 votes

The problem with her E is that tenacity makes it so useless for kiting anything you would want to kite. Seriously, you cc yourself for as long as you can cc most juggernauts and tanks.

And when you compare Zyra's E to most "catchers," it's pretty obvious that Riot sees the self-cc, short cc duration, low damage, and low AP ratio as a huge tax for being able to cc everything in a line, whereas most catchers have far stronger 1-2 target cc spells. Then you also consider that Zyra's EW means that you still get a consolation slow even if you miss your E, and that's also very different from most other catchers.

But then you have Syndra doing the exact same thing I just described, but with a far stronger cc and none of the tax. Seriously, just compare the actual numbers here. Syndra's QE can be cast while moving, has same stun range as Zyra's E, travels more than twice as fast, cc's for twice as long, does more damage, cc's everything in a line, and still has consolation cc of a slow and and knockback.

An Undead brat1 votes

I was about to quote part of your comment and say "THIS.", but then I finished reading and decided not to, but instead:

PRAISE

1337 h4x0r babe4 votes

Yep and now her plants barely even target enemy players. What a let down.

An Undead brat1 votes

I'd say hitting the skillshots to target champions actually reflects skill - or it would, if it worked better than I described in the post.

AmazoX2 votes

To answer your question, She is the way she Is because when Zyra mid was viable, Zyra support was OP.

Cosmic Warper6 votes

{quoted}

To answer your question, She is the way she Is because when Zyra mid was viable, Zyra support was OP.

well riot said that they would keep zyra mid intact, and instead they buffed her supporting heavily.

BakedLotion1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caUyt822,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-06-26T14:54:37.184+0000)

well riot said that they would keep zyra mid intact, and instead they buffed her supporting heavily.

or how Karma was designed to be a mid lane mage but they're constantly pushing her to support

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

They said they wanted to, but in reality things don't always turn out the way people plan. You also seem to be forgetting just how oppressive Zyra was as a mid laner after the rework.

Vekkna10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caUyt822,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2017-06-26T20:13:02.785+0000)

They said they wanted to, but in reality things don't always turn out the way people plan. You also seem to be forgetting just how oppressive Zyra was as a mid laner after the rework.

Said literally no one ever. Seriously, Zyra mid was barely even a thing after the rework. Her mid lane play rate went down.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

After how many nerfs?

Cosmic Warper1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caUyt822,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-26T20:28:47.535+0000)

After how many nerfs?

she was never op in mid after the mymu... Her playrate went down and her winrate stayed nearly the same.

Vekkna3 votes

https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://champion.gg:80/champion/Zyra/Middle

You can scroll through those archives of Zyra mid if you want to see the numbers yourself. After one nerf post-worlds the Zyra mid page on champion.gg completely disappeared altogether for the first time since 2014.

LankPants2 votes

You also seem to be forgetting just how oppressive Zyra was as a mid laner after the rework.

I'm calling you out on BS there, Zyra mid wasn't oppressive after the rework, in fact she got a buff a couple of patches after manly aimed at mid. Here's the changelog for 6.15.

The problem has always been Zyra support. Zyra support has always been oppressive while Zyra mid has been pretty much garbage. The simple fact is that people want Zyra mid far more than Zyra support. If Riot has to take a shotgun to Zyra support as they did to Malz then they should.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Last I checked, during that time period, people were also confused as to why she was getting a buff, when they thought she needed a nerf. The reasoning behind it was that people were maxing E, instead of Q.

An Undead brat1 votes

Well I did not ask a question like this because it's obvious, parts of her kit should be adjusted to weaken the support role - otherwise this rework goal failed.

Vekkna2 votes

{quoted}

To answer your question, She is the way she Is because when Zyra mid was viable, Zyra support was OP.

You do realize that Riot designers are not passive observers to their game, right? They directly control what happens. If they gave a shit about Zyra as a mid mage, they could buff her mid lane without making support OP.

In fact, they could nerf support while buffing mid. There are so many obvious ways of doing this that I cannot fathom why you think it's so impossible to fix. I'll give you a few big ones:

  • Plant attack speed scales off attack speed
  • AP ratios that scale with skill rank, including plant ratio scaling on W
  • Mana cost and higher charges on W
  • Change Q shape to be useful for wave clearing

All they have to do to get her in mid more often is shift kit power into heavy item and exp scaling.

Zyra mid is not bad right now, but her power curve does not work for an APC. She spikes super hard in mid game when she has Sorcs > Liandry's and then spikes again after Void Staff, then falls off super hard.

Part of that is what OP is talking about with the fixed cast-time delays on literally every skill. In early and mid game, it's rare that an opponent has enough burst to kill you before your spells go off, but by the end of mid game, it's rare that an opponent doesn't have the burst to kill you faster than your spells trigger. So that creates this bizarre identity crisis where Zyra has to build like a battle mage after mid game to survive long enough to cast 5 spells and survive her spell delays of .75-2 seconds.

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that Riot designers are not passive observers to their game, right? They directly control what happens. If they gave a shit about Zyra as a mid mage, they could buff her mid lane without making support OP.

In fact, they could nerf support while buffing mid. There are so many obvious ways of doing this that I cannot fathom why you think it's so impossible to fix. I'll give you a few big ones:

  • Plant attack speed scales off attack speed
  • AP ratios that scale with skill rank, including plant ratio scaling on W
  • Mana cost and higher charges on W
  • Change Q shape to be useful for wave clearing

All they have to do to get her in mid more often is shift kit power into heavy item and exp scaling.

Zyra mid is not bad right now, but her power curve does not work for an APC. She spikes super hard in mid game when she has Sorcs > Liandry's and then spikes again after Void Staff, then falls off super hard.

Part of that is what OP is talking about with the fixed cast-time delays on literally every skill. In early and mid game, it's rare that an opponent has enough burst to kill you before your spells go off, but by the end of mid game, it's rare that an opponent doesn't have the burst to kill you faster than your spells trigger. So that creates this bizarre identity crisis where Zyra has to build like a battle mage after mid game to survive long enough to cast 5 spells and survive her spell delays of .75-2 seconds.

Current Zyra cannot be currently buffed to increase her mid lane efficiency without it affecting her support lane strengths.

The reason is because all her power is in her passive, giving her oppressive zoning capabilities as a support. Anything you do to buff her mid lane, just increases her support role function even more so.

She needs a rework in order to become a mid lane instead. Trying to give her a plant garden theme just made her crush bot lane.

Vekkna1 votes

You lack imagination. If passive is the problem (which I agree that it is), shifting power out of passive and adding charges to W with ranks in W would solve that.

It would throttle her zoning consistency while making mid damage more reliable.

LankPants1 votes

Current Zyra cannot be currently buffed to increase her mid lane efficiency without it affecting her support lane strengths.

Plant base/lv: 5>3 Plant ratio: 0.15>0.25

Simplest change ever, neutral to a small buff for Zyra mid, fair nerf to Zyra bot. From here you could do something like fix the Q hitbox and buff its damage a little so it's just a straight buff to Zyra mid while still being a small nerf to Zyra support.

Tobias Brackner2 votes

I've never had a problem with people dodging my spells any more than any other caster. Do you have data comparing her spell speed to other Mages of similar range?

An Undead brat1 votes

While the spells are slower, too, it's not what I have a problem with (see Zyra's E projectile speed 1150 vs Lux's Q 1200). I have a problem with her being basically rooted for 0.75 seconds when she's casting her E. You can compare that to Cho'Gath's Q delay, which is 0.625 s, which means there is a posibility of him casting Rupture after Zyra casts Grasping roots and still knock her up sooner to interrupt her spell.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

So her delay is comparable to other champions?

An Undead brat1 votes

No, that's the delay after which the Grasping roots fire - his is the delay after which Rupture explodes when being casted. Everyone complains that it's unhitable because of how slow Rupture is. Plus Cho's tanky, even tho his casttimes are huge, too, Zyra is hella squishy and needs to kite.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

So Grasping roots has in her in place longer than Cho by ~.1 seconds. Her roots are active immediately, can still hit multiple targets. It also can spawn Vine Lashers which will CC the enemy for longer than Rupture and can apply On-Hit effects.

.1 seconds seems pretty fair to me.

An Undead brat1 votes

Nononono, you still don't understand. 0.75 is the duration of Zyra being rooted. 0.625 is not the time Cho can't move, it's the time between the visual of the spell appearing and the damage + knock-up proc. That's just for the imagination, I'm not comparing cast times, those are different quantities, it's just for the comparison for people who don't play Zyra. Uderstand now?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I asked for "lock in place times"

Other champions also become locked in place when they cast certain spells

I'm asking how does Zyra's time of being locked in place compare to other champions being locked in place.

An Undead brat1 votes

Who knows, but not nearly as long - I mean for similar efective-ranged champions, not Xerath's Q, I'd look on Veigar, Brand, Malz, Swain, Heimer, Syndra maybe, etc.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

............Isn't your whole argument that her cast times are too long?

An Undead brat1 votes

Ok, you can NOWHERE find ANYONE'S actual cast times (uless you have a source, link appreciated), it's just a common fact that Zyra's cast times are ridiculous - I mean, did you ever play her? Try it. You'll cry everytime they blow you up before your E fires.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

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you are making an argument with no evidence based on literal fractions of a second which humans aren't exactly the best at catching

An Undead brat1 votes

When you have a better one, call me ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Tobias Brackner1 votes

...........................................

when I have a better one? Dude, you are the one complaining with half-assed evidence. There is plenty of technology out there to figure out the exact cast time she has to deal with. Free video editing software can probably help you get the precise frame data / milisecond count.

Stop being lazy. If you think something is true enough that you want Riot to change it then be decent enough to prove your point.

Nut on my Butt2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caUyt822,comment-id=00080000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-28T20:30:25.831+0000)

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you are making an argument with no evidence based on literal fractions of a second which humans aren't exactly the best at catching

Well, here's an example of how to find cast times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE1YZVG1I6o&feature=youtu.be

And Zyra's cast times do feel sluggish tbh, they really should give her the same treatment they gave Malz and get her out of support and back into mid.

Quepha1 votes

Champ is extremely powerful, I don't know why you think she should be buffed.

An Undead brat5 votes

She's basically unviable mid. I play her since season 4 there and it has never been worse. Yes, I think she needs to be buffed, but adjust might be a better word: take something from her when she supports.

You might aswell be more specific, because her winrate does not say anything about "extremely" (while I understand it's not the only fact that shows champion's power) and my feel even about powerful.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caUyt822,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-06-26T18:20:33.551+0000)

She's basically unviable mid.

She's a support champ, you might as well be complaining that she's a bad jungler.

ninjaroxas8 votes

She was not made as a support, there are a lot of champion's like that

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

She was not made as a support

An irrelevant observation. She's now a support. Buffing her would make her OP.

ninjaroxas8 votes

People dont want her to be one, should they have treated malz as a support when people played him as one?

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

should they have treated malz as a support when people played him as one?

They DID treat him as a support until it became apparent that his kit was toxic in the bot lane.

Zyra however has a kit that is healthy in the bot lane and is also simply better as a support than it is as a mid laner. Without significantly reworking how she plays (along the line of making her plants deal virtually zero damage), she'll never be as good as a mid laner as she is as a support.

LankPants2 votes

Zyra however has a kit that is healthy in the bot lane

You're actually trolling right?

LethalTempo Jhin1 votes

How exactly is she toxic in botlane?

LankPants2 votes

Spawns a giant wall of plants every time you walk up to CS or trade and instantly wins any trade. Deals more damage than the ADC in many cases without even buying any damage. Retardedly strong lockdown in spite of her insane damage that you don't even itemise for.

She has the exact same problems support Malzahar had. She needs the same treatment.

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