I understand that Dragon is supposed to be something you build up over time.

S0NA·Dec 18, 2014·2 votes·752 views

But I'm just getting the feel that every game it's now "GET DRAGON! AMFG NOOB WTF"

The thing about the old Dragon was that you could trade something for it. Enemy grouped four members bot lane for Dragon? I'll take top turret. Enemy sieging my top lane and I can't hold it? Tele bot and take Dragon.

Since Dragon is unique, there's nothing to really trade for it. It's just a crazy idea that is probably full of holes, but what if taking down turrets gave similar buffs?

I just don't care for the entire game hinging on that Dragon spawn timer...

9 Comments

Sir ArmaMalumDec 18, 20143 votes

One key thing to keep in mind is that the gold from dragon is a fraction of what it was. Yes you're correct in that dragon is the only way of getting those specific buffs, but at the same time the gold equivalent of the buffs from new dragon and the gold from old dragon are roughly the same value within the game. Sure that early gold may not have specifically gone into the extra % AP/AD or other dragon buffs but your trading that top turret for approximately the same difference. (Although I will say the first stack is a bit frontloaded, but that also makes it easier for both teams to have that bonus.)

The only real change balance wise is the last stack, but imho I see that as an alternative to Baron buff as a game changing objective more than anything. Otherwise it's a lot to do with visible power versus invisible power. Team gold wasn't as flashy as the dragon buffs, and not as apparent towards an overall victory, on the surface at least, but it was still there. Riot simply traded it in for a much more obvious "this makes you and your team more powerful" sticker, while also locking you into specific power spikes instead of anything in the store.

Dr Clueless PhDDec 18, 20142 votes

The entire POINT of the changes was to make Dragon different from towers. They talked about it a lot.

DurzakaDec 18, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Clueless PhD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cT6rcvjL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2014-12-18T19:57:23.566+0000)

The entire POINT of the changes was to make Dragon different from towers. They talked about it a lot.

No, the point was to make it an actual decision whether to go for Dragon or go for towers.

The problem is right now, that going for Dragon is ALWAYS the right choice. i would gladly trade 1 tower for 1 dragon at every point in the game (unless it is an inhib tower, unless that is also a 5th stack dragon buff).

Instead of making it a way to counter how your opponent was playing, they simply made it the strongest choice in every situation.

Dr Clueless PhDDec 18, 20141 votes

If they overtuned Dragon, that's an issue to be solved. But, their goal was to differentiate between Dragon and towers, so adding Dragon buffs to towers is certainly not the direction to go.

DurzakaDec 18, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Clueless PhD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cT6rcvjL,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-18T20:19:36.279+0000)

If they overtuned Dragon, that's an issue to be solved. But, their goal was to differentiate between Dragon and towers, so adding Dragon buffs to towers is certainly not the direction to go.

Thats the problem though.

As long as Dragon provides something towers dont, it will be worth going for over a single tower every time.

You can always make a play for a tower, but dragon is once every 6 minutes.

This is the kind of change that didnt need to happen. Before, you decided whether the respawning gold was worth more, or the map vision was worth more. There were actual trade offs for trading a tower for dragon, or vice versa. Now there isnt, because you always want dragon if you can get it.

Dr Clueless PhDDec 18, 20141 votes

I disagree that it's impossible to make this a balanced trade. Having said that, I guess we'll have to see what Riot does. They certainly know how big of a deal Dragon is right now.

ValyrianBladeDec 18, 20141 votes

I actually kind of agree with his point though.

Whenever I'm behind in turrets early I don't worry about it much. There are hardly ever any reasonably close Games where you fail to take all 3 outer turrets, so if you get an outer turret I figure I'll just get it back later.

Once the game progresses a bit, or becomes evident that you'll take at least 1 or 2 inner turrets. So again, if you take a t2 turret around 20-25min and we don't yet, but otherwise we're pretty close, I sort of shrug it off and think we'll get your t2 later and tie it up.

It's only once you get to inhibitor turrets that you get stressed. Which is because they give a unique time limited buff of 5 minutes of super minions whenever you kill an inhibitor. So if you take my inhibitor before I take yours I don't shrug it off - I'm legitimately worried that you're getting a 5 min map advantage!

Now compare this to Dragon. If you take one Dragon, I worry a little because you have 6% ad/ap on me. (I.e. It's frontloaded). If we even up by taking the second Dragon I sort of stop caring, but typically what happens is you don't have the timer and they take multiple dragons. As they take each Dragon you get more and more concerned about being behind, and taking objectives in return doesn't make up for it because the other team still has those objectives to pursue while you no longer do.

I actually had a game recently, it was close overall but I was adc and winning bot pretty hard. Somehow I DC'd for a few minutes (I had never dc'd before, I still have no idea what happened). Once I reconnected I came back to Lane, made the enemy recall, then went to drag and saw it was gone and we didn't have the timer. We ended up consistently winning small trades from then to the end of the game, but Dragon was never up when we had a map advantage or tried to prepare for it. We didn't get a timer until they had 3 dragons (admittedly we really needed better vision control). The other team then secured the 4th and 5th Dragon and won off of it - I felt we lost the whole game because I dc'd and missed the first Dragon timer, which snowballed in to 3 free dragons and 5 overall. Had the other team just taken my t1 bot turret, we'd have contested those first 3 dragons and probably would have won the game.

Dragon being a shared objective and turrets being team specific make them incomparable. By offering unique rewards on Dragon the rewards will likely always either feel irrelevant or OP. I don't see a balanced ground.

Drunk RummateDec 18, 20142 votes

taking turrets offers a unique advantage as well

vision control and gold vs. minion damage or movespeed?

oftentimes I'll take the former. it just depends on the situation you're in. if you can get an inner turret at the cost of dragon #2 or #3 I'd say it's worth it.

Cale017Dec 18, 20141 votes

Honestly I feel like the first tier dragon buff is too much to have for an early game advantage. They should swap that one out for the third or fourth tier one instead. Right now Dragon is a bit too hotly contested because of the buffs it gives, but it's giving a wild advantage to the team who can get the first dragon that's becoming a bit too consistently unfair and making the game ruled by what team comps have the best early game.

It needs to be a strategic advantage, not more important than towers, and certainly not the factor that makes a team able to completely snowball starting at minute ten. Or sooner.