I have a question about "counterplay"

Jigglypuff·Mar 17, 2015·2 votes·598 views

We all hear Reds talking about their "Counterplay" and how the point and click on Veigar had small counterplay or w/e

I wonder why Fiora has her ult?

I understand Zhonyas can be effective against it; however that still leaves you vulnerable sitting there waiting for her to be there when you get out; furthermore AD champs that play top lane don't get Zhonyas and how do they counter her ult and how does the adc counter her ult?

I think she needs to be reworked badly and her ult should match her dueling not AOE teamfight invisibility BS... I'm just saying this not because I say she's OP like every Rioter said about Veigar, but the lack of counterplay from her ult.

19 Comments

Deep Terror NamiMar 17, 20152 votes

Are you just going to make the argument that every point-and-click ability shouldn't exist? Entire kits shouldn't have zero counterplay; just some of it is fine.

JigglypuffMar 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cIE01OcR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-17T04:44:25.340+0000)

Are you just going to make the argument that every point-and-click ability shouldn't exist? Entire kits shouldn't have zero counterplay; just some of it is fine.

I'm saying Fiora's ult needs counterplay and needs to make her a duelist not a untargetable team killer, Master Yi is fine at doing this because he doesn't kill the whole team with Q... he comes out of it quite fast and can be cc'd before he can preform it again.

Deep Terror NamiMar 17, 20151 votes

It's just a single ability, with over 100 second CD at that. It only deals physical damage too, so all Armor and Health is effective.

JamareeMar 17, 20151 votes

I thought you didn't play this game anymore, as for counterplay, item 3075 . Literally continues to do damage to her while in said form when she is meant to be untargetable.

JigglypuffMar 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I thought you didn't play this game anymore, as for counterplay, . Literally continues to do damage to her while in said form when she is meant to be untargetable.

Still can't be cc'd, which is the real problem here for quite some time and is a big team killer while not being able to be cc'd making everyone lose their focus and wanting to wait for her to come back to kill her, meanwhile everyone losing their focus the adc doesn't get focused :)

JamareeMar 17, 20151 votes

Well if she could be CCed out of it, she would be utter shit.

2000boxesMar 17, 20151 votes

Rammus item 3075

TehNACHOMar 17, 20151 votes

Actually, Fiora is due for a rework. Many reds have come out and said it.

IcyPepperMar 17, 20151 votes

MasterYi has it on a shorter cooldown.

And I disagree on Fiora. She's a strong duelist, but her lack of cc and utility (like escapes) has her rather lacking in teamfights. Yeah, she can get pentakills in lower elos, but suffers high up. She can be relatively countered by building thornmail, and if the jungler is smart he/she will gank top lane plenty (due to her lack of cc and escapes) especially if you play someone who can protect themself and others Shen

Played Shen against a Fiora the other day. She beat me in cs early game (for reasons I should not have to explain) but I beat her outright in who could benefit our team more.

A Fiora roams to kill players.

A Shen ults to protect them, recalls for items, and teleports to lane in a matter of seconds.

Plenty of top laners can compete with Fiora, and aid their team with something other than sheer damage.

TehNACHOMar 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

suffers high up.

It's actually kinda funny. Until you reach Master+, she actually maintains her ~50% win rate, spiking above that occasionally, and I'd argue her Master+ win rates are only so varied because not as many people play her.

Point being, her win rates imply she is on average more successful than she on average falls behind significantly enough to damage her games.

IcyPepperMar 17, 20151 votes

not as many people play her.

Well there's a reason for that. She's decent for solo carry, but... well shrugs

Her win rate right now looks to be 52%, which is slightly above average but relatively healthy. To be fair, a lot of games I've seen in posts with screenshots when a Fiora wins typically shows nobody building thornmail or the top laner not building frozen heart or thornmail. She can splitpush for days, but can't really run all that well...

Her pick rate isn't great at 4%, putting her as the 15th played top laner so it's not like she's being abused to hell.

I don't know, I never really had issues with her. She has her counterplay (thornmail and frozen heart, general tankiness), she's squishy if she builds pure damage, has no utility or cc in teamfights and can easily be focused because she has to either stay on the frontlines (before/after ulting leaves her vunerable if you catch her before she runs) or has to run to the back (where she can't do anything). Her ult making her untargetable is annoying, but it's a huge part of her "power budget" (her passive isn't great, her Q can only be used offensively, her W has to be timed against autoattacks, and her E is great for pushing).

I find that her best counters are tanks and bruisers to counteract her glass cannon duelist fighting style. You win trades by baiting her W, hitting her with a spell instead of an auto, and only autoing her after it goes on cooldown. If you don't give her kills early, she's forced to roam or stay and cs, neither of which helps her team if you're on your mia ping and warding game. And if you're tanky and can hold your lane just fine, she won't be able to take your tower and further puts her team behind.

How does that help? A Fiora that doesn't snowball and deal a lot of damage is less likely to faceroll your team (just like Katarina and the rest).

Also, junglers should be camping top lane to set her behind. Seriously.

And consider picking up Shen against a Fiora. Don't die, build health and thornmail, roam with your ult, and teleport back into lane to get cs (and if Fiora takes ignite instead of teleport... well, that sets her team further behind if you deny kills).

It's a bit long, but I hope that helps. I know people are frustrated with some champions Zed Katarina Kalista beyond just statistics, so I'm just trying to dish out some hopefully helpful advice.

TehNACHOMar 17, 20151 votes

It really is just odd though. The weirdest thing is so many player's views on a given champ in terms of their power simply do not correlate with the evidence; some of the most controversial champions in the game for example have some of the lowest win rates in the game ( LeeSin poster child right here), and I recall all sorts of people crying for Tank Junglers when some already had well above a 50% win rate.

IcyPepperMar 17, 20151 votes

I hear the counterargument about pick rates deflating win rates, and I have to say it could go either way.

Personally, I don't like Lee Sin due to his pick rate, because I feel like it somewhat kills diversity (in LCS, you'll see him a lot). To be fair, this is because the junglers who are better are often banned, leaving him as the next best choice. I think he's balanced, but annoying. HIs kit is too complicated for noobs (you cannot faceroll with an energy champ, despite popular belief. You got to space out the combos a little and play smart), but at higher tiers of play he's very much balanced.

Also, a note about tank junglers: Sejuani is often called out for being tanky and dealing damage, but she's actually a bruiser imo. She's classified as a tank/jungler, and only one spell scales with hp and it requires being in melee range. The rest of her kit is AP cc. But let's be real, she's going to be nerfed... at least she can clear now, but I think most of her teamfighting abiltiy should be in utility, not just raw damage (tho the enemy should be punished and she rewarded if she can really stay in the middle of a team and not die with her W on).

Otherwise, you got a point about tank junglers. Their win rates are fine, but their pick rates are abysmal... but on the rise lately, thankfully.

TehNACHOMar 17, 20151 votes

To be frank, the pick rate argument doesn't really count until you hit really high divisions. If I recall correctly for example, Silver 3 already is like 2/3 of the Ranked Population and this also doesn't account for the probably gigantic Unranked Population. Given how big the League Community as a whole is, you shouldn't experience significant deflation effects until you are at least passed the Diamond Level; I would assume.

In general though, human perception is always a dumb topic to jump into. :D

IcyPepperMar 17, 20151 votes

shrugs

Fair enough. I hope my counterplay tips help someone. Fiora's ult is annoying, but it's not like the champion is too unhealthy. Effective? Yeah. Manageable? Yeah.

It sucks having to change up your build/playstyle for one champion (rushing zhonyas for Zed, or even taking exhaust over ignite), and I dislike building thornmail on champions who scale with HP against aa champions, but I do it because it helps me win. Doing the same build over and over isn't the greatest idea. Building and counterbuilding is part of how you win, so don't ignore it!

And for anybody who has trouble with Fiora, try picking up Shen (I think Riven counters her as well).

TehNACHOMar 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It sucks having to change up your build/playstyle for one champion.

To be frank, this is the entire reason why Riot reworked resistances a lot with S5; most defensive purchases are supposed to be reactive buys anyway.

You can go glass cannon against Assassins and you can win, you just have to take the responsibility if you end up failing after raising the risks and the reward in that specific matchup.

IcyPepperMar 17, 20152 votes

Agreed. There are a few items, however, that give you the defenses you need while giving you power as well like item 3157

But even on carries, a little defense doesn't hurt. Personally, the rare few times I play Fiora, I'd like to build item 3139 , item 3102 , item 3143 so I can survive teamfights and help my teammates out with more sustained damage instead of just ulting and running away if I don't get an immediate penta. Patching up her main weakness by sapping a bit of her strength, but I do it for the team.

Though it still perplexes me why people still take ignite over exhaust against Zed. One can potentially snowball you early, the other remains useful defensively and offensively for yourself and your team throughout the entire game.

People complain about lack of counterplay, and then complain about the counterplay itself. Like Katarina's ult and how everyone is like "just cc her noob." Of course you save your cc for her. She's a carry. Don't waste it on the tank or the adc in the back you can't even reach when the apc is right in melee range anyway.

paShadoWnMar 17, 20151 votes

Fiora cant mass murder ppl with her ult if you dont buil her full ad; and any squish is vulnerable to cc plus pile on. Fizzes invulnerability plus flash plus damage on ridonculously low cd is more cheaty imo.

SolioxMar 17, 20151 votes

When Fiora ults, you and your team know (or should know) exactly where she is going to be when her ult is over, right at the feet of the champion she used it on. Disengage if she tries to start a fight with it, and go back in the moment her ult finishes. Communicate this fact with your team and it should just be free kills for you guys unless she's super fed.