Boards›Gameplay

Half this game's 'nerfs' are worthless and result in a placebo effect.

TheThundersRoar··86 votes·5,312 views

So, Graves QQ is coming back, at last. Apparently, placebo is a thing in game balance.

People somehow shut up about him after 6.3 after his "nerfs". What nerfs? He lost 65 rank 5 damage on ONE of his abilities, and slowed his burst by half a second. Sixty-five. Oh boy.

Well guess what:** 65 less nuke doesn't make much difference in a nuclear winter.** And you're telling me that was somehow enough to silence everyone about this abomination of a champion? That the King-of-All-Trades, tank-dps-burst-assassin, top-jungler-mid-marksman has fallen to a 65 damage nerf. I didn't think so.

Now that the trickery is wearing off, people are realizing that nothing has changed. I bet the QQ, and even winrate, would have plummeted if they kept him the same but lied about it in the patch notes.

I'd actually like them to try exactly that, because that'd confirm it.

What's next, you might ask?

Lux < This bitch? Nothing has changed about her, by the way. Oh, wait, it did. They changed her weakest ability. It's weaker on her. Slightly. But it stacks on allies. And guess what? She's actually a stronger teamfighter than in 6.5. The rest of her stuff? She can still kill your ADC from 1300 units with two abilities, she can still use her ult to farm, and she can still AoE-demolish your entire team from the fog of war.

Soon enough you'll realize that she's still there in your nightmares, and you'll go back to waking up screaming at night in 6.8 or so. You just think that because in some way, some ability of hers got what could qualify as a nerf, it's all fine now. Well, it's not. Just wait.

Just like Riven a while back. Or Rengar , ever since his release. Or Leblanc . Every once in a while, they flare back up. Why? Because the last 'nerf' was hardly...that. You simply take off 3 AD or a few % off of the scaling and suddenly it's balanced? People just think that.

But before you know it, the relentless Boxbox keeps at it, because 20 damage off of the shield makes no difference, because the silence is just icing on the cake, because getting the ! warning half a second sooner doesn't matter, and these champions come back again.

More examples are: Ahri Jax Malzahar. Slowly but surely.

It's just the placebo effect, and I really want Riot to try some crazy fake nerfs to prove it.

114 Comments

Hayaishi236 votes

We need to go back to the days of Olaf, where abominations would get hit so hard they would disappear for months.

LankPants9 votes

Agreed, I'd like to see Graves at a point where he can't burst through a Sona any-more. That champion is terribly designed cancer and he deserves to be treated as such.

QjTHqo3RTq12 votes

Anyone can burst Sona, she has one of the lowest base health in the game, even most support champions will beat her after 6

KrugLyfe14 votes

Sona is cancer too

Knoyle4 votes

Maybe It's just me but I'd rather see her than Blitzcrank Annie Brand Lux in bot lane.

I hate my ADC1 votes

Care to elaborate? What is cancer about Sona? Her short effective range is too deadly for the enemy?

Zorasama8 votes

No. Balancing means trying to make everything stay at the same level, not just gut OP one to hell. Not that what they're doing is good, they do need to stop these fake nerf stuffs, but Olaf nerf was terrible and should never ever happen again.

Slythion20 votes

Except for the fact that Rengar was legitimately nerfed, Riven is struggling, and Leblanc is struggling as well (although she still does her job). While I agree with your points with Graves and Lux, I don't think these "fake" nerfs happen as often as you think

TheThundersRoar9 votes

8th most popular top and 3rd most popular mid are hardly struggling. People aren't picking them every game, but soon(TM). The pattern is evident. Rengar got the heaviest hit from these 'nerfs', but he'll make his comeback sooner or later. He always did. He's had more FotM phases than almost every other champion I can think of since his release, and it always ended with a 'nerf' that 'stopped' him, but the dedicated players keep at it and show everyone he can still kick as much ass as ever.

I'm not saying game balance is worthless. It's not, and a huge part of the nerfs do matter. But another big part...doesn't.

That's why it doesn't always take a buff or a rework to bring a champion back into the meta. Sometimes all it takes is someone proving that your most beloved cancer champion is still as stage 4 as ever,** you just managed to convince yourself it wasn't.**

Slythion15 votes

Rengar is sitting well below the 50% winrate for both jungle and top...play rate doesn't show a champion's nerfs being insignificant, win rate does. Sure, Rengar can still do his job, that's not what nerfs are for. Nerfs are to make it more difficult for a champion to do their job, in which case Rengar was definitely nerfed

LankPants3 votes

Rengar is sitting well below the 50% winrate for both jungle and top...play rate doesn't show a champion's nerfs being insignificant, win rate does.

There's a lot of things other than power that can affect winrate. In Rengars case he's a squishy AD jungler. (for the most part) This is probably the worst type of champion to put on the average team. You risk making a super squishy team that can't compete and you risk making an all AD team. Since people are idiots and don't consider how their champ pick affects their team these actually wind up affecting Rengar, as well as other similar champs win rates a lot.

in which case Rengar was definitely nerfed

Rengar didn't just need nerfs, Rengar needs a rework. He has the exact same problem S1 Eve had and anyone who played in S2 can tell you what Riot did to her for it. Rengar is just one of those champions who's so badly designed he needs to be terrible.

Slythion2 votes

{quoted}

There's a lot of things other than power that can affect winrate. In Rengars case he's a squishy AD jungler. (for the most part) This is probably the worst type of champion to put on the average team.

While this is true and for assassin junglers (especially AD with this meta) you put the team in an awkward position, but if that was the case then he'd have been below a 50% win rate before the nerfs as well. You'd think with the appearance of Marksmen in multiple lanes that Rengo would be having a field day, but he hasn't. Taking a look at win rates before and after a nerf, it's fairly safe to say his win rate dropped was primarily due to his over-nerfs. I say over-nerfs simply because his damn E still doesn't work right when he's jumping

Rengar didn't just need nerfs, Rengar needs a rework. He has the exact same problem S1 Eve had and anyone who played in S2 can tell you what Riot did to her for it. Rengar is just one of those champions who's so badly designed he needs to be terrible.

I would disagree, I feel like giving him a more reliable E and upping his base armour/magic resist by a little (no more than 5) early would help a Rengar more than players would think while still keeping him from being an the unstoppable kitty assassin we all have nightmares about.

If you want to look at champs that need a rework because their kit forces them to be underpowered...I'll just leave this picture here Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox

LankPants4 votes

While this is true and for assassin junglers (especially AD with this meta) you put the team in an awkward position, but if that was the case then he'd have been below a 50% win rate before the nerfs as well.

Rengar was immensely overpowered at that point. His winrate was around 50% because of how high his power was.

You'd think with the appearance of Marksmen in multiple lanes that Rengo would be having a field day, but he hasn't.

This is because of which ADCs are popular. Rengar is very bad at dealing with Graves and Kindred. He also has somewhat less favourable than average matchups against Kalista and Lucian.

If you want to look at champs that need a rework because their kit forces them to be underpowered...I'll just leave this picture here

Rengar has the same problem as S1 Eve. He comes out of stealth and kills you before you can react. As long as he does this it's better to leave Rengar as a bad champion because no other champ in the game is more bullshit to have to play against.

Slythion2 votes

Rengar was immensely overpowered at that point. His winrate was around 50% because of how high his power was. Rengar is very bad at dealing with Graves and Kalista. He also has somewhat less favourable than average matchups against Kalista and Lucian.

This is true and partially the reason why he is struggling at the moment. Immobile adc's are almost never seen anymore (jinx, varus, draven (ignore Draven Day), Ashe, Miss Fortune) with the only exceptions being Kog'Maw (who is only picked when given a heavy peel comp anyways), Jhin (who Rengar has a field day with) and maybe Twitch

Rengar has the same problem as S1 Eve. He comes out of stealth and kills you before you can react.

With the nerf to his ult indicator that problem isn't really relevant until Rengar gets some movement speed (tier 2 boots + yomuus + necklace stacks). Until then enemies have a reliable amount of time to react, reposition, or at least put down a pink to see him coming. Rengar has a respectable amount of counterplay that most players ignore :/

devdev4632 votes

Immobile adc's are almost never seen anymore (jinx, varus, draven (ignore Draven Day), Ashe, Miss Fortune) with the only exceptions being Corki (who is only picked when given a heavy peel comp anyways),

When you say corki, do you actually mean kog?

crippler381 votes

shaco if he's even can do that too, just sayin

Vistha Kai3 votes

Shaco can't kill you in under 0.5 second unless extremely fed.

Rengar does that with just a handful of AD.

crippler381 votes

well less 'extremely fed' and more 'he has about four items' although granted it is slower, it's not on the long cooldown of rengar's ultimate, if they get steraks it'll be more of an issue but you can still build duskblade and help fight against that.

I will agree shaco can't do it as early but shaco does have the ability to do it in a possibly more frustrating way, just spreading the word so that when I play shaco (love the guy) people aren't surprised when they're 100-0ed in the middle of their team during a team fight

Vistha Kai2 votes

There's still the fact you know Shaco's about to have a way with you, thanks to his Deceive being visible from the Fog of War.

Rengar just goes in dry.

archerno16 votes

{quoted}

8th most popular top and 3rd most popular mid are hardly struggling. People aren't picking them every game, but soon(TM). The pattern is evident. Rengar got the heaviest hit from these 'nerfs', but he'll make his comeback sooner or later. He always did. He's had more FotM phases than almost every other champion I can think of since his release, and it always ended with a 'nerf' that 'stopped' him, but the dedicated players keep at it and show everyone he can still kick as much ass as ever.

I'm not saying game balance is worthless. It's not, and a huge part of the nerfs do matter. But another big part...doesn't.

That's why it doesn't always take a buff or a rework to bring a champion back into the meta. Sometimes all it takes is someone proving that your most beloved cancer champion is still as stage 4 as ever,** you just managed to convince yourself it wasn't.**

You do realize that their goal with those nerfs was not to make them unviable and unplayable, but to bring them to healthier state while still remaining popular. I think those nerfs, especially graves nerfs combined with sterak nerfs were huge success. They managed to nring them to balanced state withput gutting them. I see you mention riven and boxbox, thats the problem, they gut champions like riven and not only her: darius,aatrox,mord,reng and more to the point where only their really dedicated mains are only ones who can still make them viable.

Cloud2732 votes

{quoted}

Except for the fact that Rengar was legitimately nerfed, Riven is struggling, and Leblanc is struggling as well (although she still does her job). While I agree with your points with Graves and Lux, I don't think these "fake" nerfs happen as often as you think

I've seen Leblanc played at LCS multiple times this year. She's still getting played, and she's still winning games. Yea, she's really "struggling" isn't she?

Critmaster Garen16 votes

lux dropped 4% in winrate to 49% after the last patch.

graves is still op, but lux actually took a noticable hit, and her play rate is going down.

graves play rate is still going up.

TheThundersRoar10 votes

You are correct.

Which is why I'm calling this a "placebo effect" instead of "crowd mentality, whatever."

EDIT: Or 'nocebo', as another guy brought up.

In drug trials, people given placebo drugs can actually start displaying the side effects they were told they would have.

And similarly, these players are actually losing lanes, fights, and games more often just because they honestly believe they are playing weaker champions.

For all I know, I could be wrong, but I'm bringing this hypothesis to the table, because there are patterns. These champions always make their comeback, often without gameplay changes. Graves is making his right now. And I'm having a hard time believing such a 'nerf' could take down such powerful champions, when true nerfs hardly dent weaker champions

manbearswine9 votes

{quoted}

You are correct.

Which is why I'm calling this a "placebo effect" instead of "crowd mentality, whatever."

Thing about lux is,she was mostly complained about due to her winrate,they basically fought placebo with placebo then.

And as far as graves goes,65 damage is A LOT,like A WHOLE FUCKING LOT,if you can't tell that it's your own problem(same goes for a 0.5 delay on burst,that is again: A WHOLE FUCKING LOT,that was a very serious nerf overall).

Vistha Kai2 votes

There was no placebo about Lux. She legitimately had no bad matchups.

Then people were told by Riot she is weaker and suddenly she went fell from being #1 by like 25 spots.

iamleburk1 votes

Oh cmon that stuff was completely overblown. She had good winrates because she was easy as fuck, her laning was never anywhere near as bad as people made it out to be.

Dar Raksada1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEAb3Evl,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2016-04-05T16:49:37.091+0000)

There was no placebo about Lux. She legitimately had no bad matchups.

Then people were told by Riot she is weaker and suddenly she went fell from being #1 by like 25 spots.

they did give her laning phase a significant hit. Making all her matchups weaker, and making it likely that she'll come out of lane phase weaker because she's not as safe.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Did she lose any range or damage? No. Then she's still as safe as before.

She was safe even when casting the shield was basically rooting her.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

You are correct.

Which is why I'm calling this a "placebo effect" instead of "crowd mentality, whatever."

EDIT: Or 'nocebo', as another guy brought up.

In drug trials, people given placebo drugs can actually start displaying the side effects they were told they would have.

And similarly, these players are actually losing lanes, fights, and games more often just because they honestly believe they are playing weaker champions.

For all I know, I could be wrong, but I'm bringing this hypothesis to the table, because there are patterns. These champions always make their comeback, often without gameplay changes. Graves is making his right now. And I'm having a hard time believing such a 'nerf' could take down such powerful champions, when true nerfs hardly dent weaker champions

considering most people dont even read patchnotes, there isnt much of a placebo effect.

ive played lux since the changes, expecting the only difference to be that she can shield allies better than before. what really hurt was the changes to the projectile speed of her shield. the damn thing is close to impossible to hit on an ally right now when you need it. its so slow, its not even funny.

aperson115 votes

The most impactful nerfs are range nerfs, CC duration nerfs, CD nerfs and base AS nerfs. Any other nerf has to change numbers in the 100's (effectively or otherwise) before it makes a dent in a champ's true power.

Riot does tiny nerfs to champs they want to remain popular, because they know the community can't distinguish between quality and quantity. "OMG Kalista has been nerfed 9 times in a row, leave her alone!!!"

Well yeah, when your nerfs are all along the lines of "Rend costs 20 more mana if it's used to kill 1 minion" 9 nerfs really doesn't mean much.

ProfDrDeath14 votes

I'd argue that number changes can also be quite impactful, tbh.

For example, consider a base damage decrease of 20 damage that means that a given mage needs to have a lot more AP to clear the caster minions with one ability in the mid-game.

Or a cost increase on a bread-and-butter ability of 10 mana.

Also, your list of highly impactful nerfs could be expanded to base stat changes in general and MS changes in particular.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

Just need to look at Hecarim to see how hard a mana cost increase can hit a champs performance.

iamleburk1 votes

Any nerfs to bread and butter abilities are felt pretty hard. Something like Ziggs Q, Syndra Q, Ezreal's Q, Akali's ult, Anivia E, Talon W etc etc, nerfing those would be pretty big. Mana cost, damage nerf, CD nerf, width nerf, any type of changes in that department can completely destroy a champion.

LankPants10 votes

The most impactful nerfs are range nerfs, CC duration nerfs, CD nerfs and base AS nerfs. Any other nerf has to change numbers in the 100's (effectively or otherwise) before it makes a dent in a champ's true power.

Not really true, removing 20 damage off of Syndra's Q at rank 1 completely killed her. Even after Riot fixed the dumb E width nerfs she didn't come back because they nerfed the only reason to pick Syndra.

SouL1ess10 votes

Nerfs to champion is not the whole picture.

Changes to itemization also changes the champion's (relative) power.

E.g. Introduction of Octarine Core made Tormented Soul a great/necessary pick-ban Core in DotA 2 6.83, enough that Icefrog nerfed TS pretty hard even though TS had been receiving nothing but buffs before that patch.

E.g. Changes to AD itemization so that ADCs no longer lose as much practical damage output when building semi-tank made Graves and some other ADCs a much better pick, especially in another lane.

E.g. Introduction of Duskblade (and Ghostblade stat changes) indirectly caused Talon to receive a nerf, despite that Talon has received nothing but nerfs before the introduction of AD itemization revamp.

E.g. Introduction of Devourer indirectly caused Warwick to get nerfed in several aspects even though Warwick has not been touched in a long ass time.

Only looking at a champion's kit patch history is not enough to judge its power. A previous champion nerf may not be too relevant to the current game balance if the meta, itemization, or expected champion selection (counter-picks) changes since the nerf.

Sire Hippington7 votes

Really disagree. 65 damage from your main damage skill is huge, it certainly wasn't a pointless nerf. He just was **soo **broken that even with a nerf that would leave most champs olafed he still remains clearly to strong. And the lux nerf really wasn't insignificant either. She lost 140shield on her self, and often enough also 70 on allies as they not always get hit both ways. Now you can actually punish her if you get on her. She used to have the 2nd lowest deaths of all midlaners, now it's the 9th lowest. She went from broken to actually balanced, as she now has a weakness. Things where you can speak of placebo nerfs are the as nerf for jax passive, or the 3 ad nerf to vayne some time ago, or the 5% less damage on Zeds ult, but many of the nerfs are quite potent. They might not always be enough to fully balance them, but they are clearly makeing the champs weaker than befor. People complained alot about 'overnerfing' like olaf and seju, so it's not that suprising that riot is a bit more carefull with nerfs, small changes can often(not always) have quite some impact.

It's also important to note that the raw power of a champ and how annoying to fight they are are two different things. Number nerfs usually only affect the power-level and rarly the play-pattern, so unheathy champs like rengar are still unhealthy even if numerical balanced. No amount of nerfing will change that, those champs simply need a rework of some scale.

Irelia Bot5 votes

Sometimes a champ really is not OP and these psudo nerfs are all that is needed to get people to shut up.

But other times these psudo nerfs do not contend with a real problem and as a result the next much harsher nerf leaves them in a really bad state and the psudo nerf is not reverted.

Sp33d Zer04 votes

Everyone knows the placebo effect is real. There was a patch they said they nerfed Vlad waaaaay back, and it didn't wind up going through. However, his winrate still dropped 3% for weeks until someone noticed it was the same.

This game is a very mental one, which is part of why you hear so many say "Don't play on tilt", because your mindset is the biggest thing that will effect you.

Naag One4 votes

just like Kha'zix buffs item 3070

Q cd 3 from 3.5 seconds W cd 9 from 10 seconds

"Greetings, summoners.

Welcome to patch 6.6, the one where we buff Kha’Zix"

I lol'ed so hard :D

Bladerunner77771 votes

W buff is k

Buffing Kha's Q (other than reducing mana, which helps his sustain i guess) is a huge deal because it's his most powerful ability

had they increased his E base damage by 50 or something, it wouldn't matter

Naag One1 votes

I once built full AD with around 60% crit chance(IE included) AA crits did more damage than evolved Q and didn't require isolation :|

gonna try it again in some normals :)

Bladerunner77771 votes

Or you could go with a significantly cheaper build that doesn't require winning the summoner's rift lottery :I

KetiaX3 votes

Lower ELO people thought Graves was dead, but even after the nerf I watch higher ELO people in streams still pretty much spamming Graves in top and jungle, so if there's any placebo on Graves, it was only on lower ELOs

Lux' burst is still broken. Placebo is definitely there.

Riven's broken because it's Riven. High mobility, high damage, spammable shield, 2 AoE CC. Regardless how you nerf her, if you don't take out any of those, she'll stay broken.

Rengar release wasn't broken because of his 100-0 ability, it was because he can 100-0 while building 0-1 damage item and build tank items the rest. Basically in a team fight he can take down all your squishies while staying alive.

Leblanc is, well, Leblanc. What surprises me is that people don't buy Banshees against her. You buy it on your squishies and she's useless. Sure, you do much less damage, but it's better than a champion being utterly useless in team fights.

Jax is always there. Malzahar's getting changes. Ahri actually got a buff on her sustain and Q movespeed buff (I think) before she made a comeback.

Gayn3 votes

Pacific or Atlantic? I can't tell which salty ocean of tears you originated from.

devdev4633 votes

there was a vlad nerf a while back that didn't actually happen till the next patch. During the patch he was nerfed but not really his win rate plummeted. Quite a funny story.

Dar Raksada2 votes

The nerf to lux wasn't targeted at her teamfighting potential, it was meant to lower her power in lane (which leads to her being weaker later on due to less cs = less gold = less items = less ap). It had the side effect of making her worse in teamfights if you use w properly. if she's nuking you from the fog of war you need to ward up/dodge skillshots. Or qq about xerath etc. that can do the same, though xer actually does more damage.

Also, how is she a better teamfighter now?

Base shield reduced to 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 / 110 from 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 / 180.
AP ratio reduced to 20% AP from 35% AP.
New Effect: Shield now stacks on allies hit with each passage. Maximum shield is 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 / 220 (+ 40% AP).

New Effect: Missile now decelerates on the way out and accelerates on the way back. Tell me how making the shield slower, and weaker improves her teamfighting? The maximum value you can get now is a whopping 40+5% ap higher than it was with average/bad use before. It's also 360+70ap-(220+40%ap)= 140+30%ap Weaker than it was before in optimal usage, and it applies slower so you can't react as fast.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Prior, Lux would need to shield her team while taking damage to get the most benefit of her shield. Since it only refreshed and didnt stack, not taking damage during the first half of the shield means that youre essentially wasting half of it. Its only 140+30%AP weaker if you take 70+15% AP damage during the small window when the shield is going out.

New lux, however, can just throw her shield out before the engage. She can shield all her teammates, and there is no "waste" for not shielding during a teamfight. If old Lux did this, they would have a 180 point shield. New Lux can give a 220 point shield.

And another benefit to being able to throw out the shield before the fight instead of during it - it comes off of cooldown faster. Lux's shield has a 10second cooldown max rank. Most lux's like getting 40% (or even 45%) CDR. If you can use it before a fight and not during a fight, it means it comes off of cooldown faster in the middle of the fight.

Now, whether or not this is a buff or a nerf is up to debate. To me, it seems like a power shift - its stronger in some areas, weaker in others.

FortisDominus2 votes

Rengar: the bola nerfs really made it frustrating to even play rengar. Champions like riven, rengar and leblanc get nerfs cumulatively and those 3 champions have aspects of their kit that make them frustrating to play against. Adjusting their numbers to make them weaker wont necessarily make them any less frustrating. Riven is the most balanced she has even been. Leblanc is honestly still a problem, but once again its mostly because of her kit being overloaded. Rengar is in a more balanced state, but people once again find him frustrating to play against because of his kit. If you nerf them too much though they become useless because they wont be able to accomplish the one thing they were designed to do; kill other champions. Outside of their abilities to kill squishies (besides riven) they dont have much else they can do.

Primaquarius2 votes

The APC Udyr nerf was the biggest placebo in season 6 for now

SPICYMEATBALLS2 votes

MAKE SONA GREAT AGAIN

Sona item 3070

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by TheThundersRoar

"We've temporarily disabled Fiora due to an in-game bug, and are working on fixing the problem."
Gameplay224 comments
549
votes
The first 3 picks are at a disadvantage, and they should get to ban.
Gameplay173 comments
408
votes
This game needs a 25% damage decrease across the whole board.
Gameplay268 comments
353
votes
"We bet it all on her. The enemy team took the best of us and tore her down."
Memes & Games75 comments
241
votes
It's almost 2016 and the game can still ninja-crash while loading and cost you the game.
Gameplay111 comments
230
votes
What you said: "I'm split-pushing bot. If they come, take Baron. If they don't, I'll take an inhib."
Gameplay113 comments
208
votes