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Still waiting for the supposed "hyper carry" to be nerfed.

SlampieceHawke··111 votes·6,085 views

Every vayne game I've seen has won by a landslide. Tired of this crap. You don't have to change her wonderful kit. I'll admit I enjoy playing her from time to time, but can we at least nerf some stats even just a little bit or something till the high balance team finally does something?

This is an example of a hyper carryKogMaw . He ACTUALLY DOES have a hard time early game.

EDIT:

Please bear with me here and realize that I don't agree with gutting and overbearing nerfs. I've just grown tired of the balance teams approach to nerfs and buffs in general. It appears that they will go out and make these small buffs/ nerfs to champs who are never nowhere near as relevant as the champs who are overpowered/underpowered for so long. I wish they could make more frequent and slight buffs/nerfs instead of taking so long to make their supposed, pinpoint changes.

Vayne, right now is a super safe hyper carry who scales between early-mid game which SHOULD NOT be a hyper carry. Just stupid OP.

173 Comments

BeatRushVII45 votes

Lol vaynes early game is weak because her range is really bad

550 range: Draven Kalista Ezreal Corki MissFortune Tristana (early levels) Vayne 525: Graves

500: Sivir Lucian

Yup, really bad range

{quoted}

Her early game is only good if you let her proc silver bolts with nothing but autos ... and you deserve to lose for that kind of blatant stupidity.

Why do people pretend that adcs are alone in lane? If a leona comes dashing into your face with E and Q up, or nami with Q into E you're taking at LEAST one round of silver bolt damage.

This is also ignoring the fact that vayne has one of the most dramatic level 6 power spikes of any adc in the entire game.

Narasimha8 votes

..Do you actually not know the basis of this arguement?

Vayne's range IS bad. Why? Because she's the ONLY ADC who can't damage anything outside of her range. 550. That's it. Every single other ADC has a method of poke, extended range, or both. They have the ability to wear down their opponents, even without a support. Vayne doesn't have that option.

BeatRushVII8 votes

{quoted}

..Do you actually not know the basis of this arguement?

Vayne's range IS bad. Why? Because she's the ONLY ADC who can't damage anything outside of her range. 550. That's it. Every single other ADC has a method of poke, extended range, or both. They have the ability to wear down their opponents, even without a support. Vayne doesn't have that option.

Because her kit is built in such a way that she doesnt NEED to wear anyone down. She just stays alive and farms till 6, gets a cutlass, presses r and goes in. She either gets a kill, or damages them from full health badly enough that they are forced to back. Yes, i will give you that her 1-6 is weaker than a lot of adcs, but it stops abruptly the first time she levels her ult.

You are also , for whatever reason, glossing over the fact that she is the only adc in the entire game with point and click hard cc not attached to her ult. Yes, its within her range of 550, but that's why she has a 6-2 second gap closer and 30-90 bonus movement speed. This adds up to a fairly safe pick on a champion who is supposed to be high risk high reward. That's the problem

Narasimha3 votes

Let me rephrase. She doesn't need to wear anyone down, aye. But she also has limited options against people wearing her down. She can't dodge every Graves Q, every MF bounce shot, every Lucian W. She can't retaliate against people that can chip away at her. She can't do anything at level 6 if the other adc is topped off and she's only got half her health left. And healing supports don't help Vayne much, she needs someone with hard cc to give her the extra lock down she needs. Well, theres Nami, but she has mana problems of her own.

You are also , for whatever reason, glossing over the fact that she is the only adc in the entire game with point and click hard cc not attached to her ult.

...So? Ashe is the only ADC with a permaslow the ENTIRE game. Sivir is the only ADC with a spellshield that can block ULTIMATES. Varus is the only ADC that can lock down EVERY member of the enemy team.

Every ADC is allowed to have a unique strength. What's wrong with that?

Niaphim15 votes

Her E is higher range than her auto (600 I guess). Good vaynes can use this to get that last shot on a target that has just escaped her 550 range with a sliver of health.

EndlessSorcerer9 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Vayne

Condemn RANGE: 550

It has the exact same range as her autoattacks.

Niaphim6 votes

Right, and now check that in game. I believe my client and my vayne games experience more than some website, even if it is semi-official. Press A or whatever your autoattack key is mapped to and then mouseover your E.

Narasimha13 votes

... Do you not know the difference between spell ranges and AA ranges?

Check THAT first. It's a pretty significant difference.

Niaphim4 votes

What is the difference then? From my experience I am able to condemn from a higher range than I can auto. Is it just a false impression? Ok, found it. One is measured from the edge of the character model, another one - from the center.

Narasimha10 votes

Autoattacks are calculated from the edge of a hit box, to the edge of a hit box. Skillshots as well. Targeted abilities, however, are calculated from the center of a model to the center of a model. It looks like it's larger because technically the ability has a longer distance to go. The effective range is effectively the same however.

Niaphim5 votes

Just did a quick test on golems. Indeed, aa range and E range are exactly same. And I've played many games on Vayne thinking that her E has a higher range. Thank you for clarification :) Have my upvote

Narasimha3 votes

No problem! :D I don't really care about defending or calling out champions. I'm just interested in spreading truth and knowledge.

EndlessSorcerer7 votes

Vayne has "short range" because she has no abilities which allow her to affect enemies outside of her autoattack range.

Ashe WR Corki QR Caitlyn QR Draven ER Ezreal QWR Graves QR Jinx WR Kalista Q KogMaw QER Lucian QWR (Targeting a minion) MissFortune QR (Bounce Q off a minion) Quinn Q Sivir QW Urgot QE Varus QER

Tristana and Twitch are the only other ADCs who can't affect enemies outside of their autoattack range and both have abilities which can extend their autoattack range significantly.

Tails Doll3 votes

And she has a passive and a ability that allows her to close the gap so she can hit people. You cant kite Vayne with range as easyly as champions like Sivir, Luc or Urgot.

dannykun3 votes

Sivir gets a 50 MS bonus for dealing damage to an enemy champion, and has a huge MS buffing ult.

Lucian has two abilities one dash, that's longer than vayne's at that, and a %MS buff from his w.

Urgot's shield lets him slow kiddies down by 15% using his q and massive range when he's got his debuff up.

All of these champions have more than enough in their kit to kite vayne with ease.

Llanite2 votes

And you're not alone either. If their leona stuns you, it's reasonable to assume that your support is also CC-ing their Vayne.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Depends. A good support will block the enemy ADC. Most supports tend to counter-CC the enemy Support. One of the many reasons I find escaping the role so difficult.

Of course, even when you do the correct thing, some ADC's still yell at you for not targeting the "immediate threat". One of the many reasons I'm trying.

Troll for Trump5 votes

The fact that Draven, who is lanebully that has countered vayne for ages is now actually bad against vayne should tell you something. Caitlyn can't do anything either(I havent seen a cait for a longg time) Lucian got nerfed to the ground. They nerfed all the bullies now vayne is out to play. Just nerf vayne and keep her nerfed til you get to the marksman update y'all at Rito are planning. It would introduce a ton more diversity in the game.(OK, not SUPER much, but, instead of vayne 24/7 youll get Sivir,Luc,Kalista, or go to a really long ago meta of ez,corki and kog

FalconPawwwwnch12 votes

Yea, Vayne is disgusting right now

Riot isn't addressing her because of Worlds but I'm confident she'll be gutted after it

Dengeden3 votes

Vayne - sucks - in - competitive

Anidan6 votes

She shines in competitive. In competitive her mechanics are actually used to their fullest capacity, and she's a mechanics-heavy champion. So, no, she really doesn't suck in competitive.

dannykun12 votes

I'll tell you right now, if Riot Fixes the Support meta they won't have to gut Vayne. Her weak early game (compared to other ADC's) make her extremely vulnerable to poke supports that can keep her in check and deny her farm even under tower. Karma is one of her biggest gripes as an opposing support. Powerful peel (dat empowered w doe) mixed with frequent poke that can hit her through the back line, makes for a very beaten down vayne. It's that The support meta is very Tanky engage champs that can peel everything and anything off vayne that makes her so good right now, She's still very frail compared to many of the other ADC's, she's just got an easier time getting set up since she has someone that always has her back. If they fix the Support triangle so that Poke supports are viable again, and tanky supports are weak to that support type again we'll be golden to pick ADC/Support combo's that easily murder vayne and her lane partner.

Which ADC is most powerful really depends on how powerful their support is, because all adc's are powerful if they can get 1) reliable farm 2) good synergy going with their support and 3) A support that compliments their kit by covering their weaknesses, or can build to cover those weaknesses(a weak early game champ benefits heavily from a support with early power spikes, and the inverse is true as well). Buff Spellthiefs and nerf relic's and you'll see the game dynamic shift dramatically.

Daxterr3 votes

{quoted}

Which ADC is most powerful really depends on how powerful their support is, because all adc's are powerful if they can get 1) reliable farm 2) good synergy going with their support and 3) A support that compliments their kit by covering their weaknesses, or can build to cover those weaknesses(a weak early game champ benefits heavily from a support with early power spikes, and the inverse is true as well). Buff Spellthiefs and nerf relic's and you'll see the game dynamic shift dramatically.

I don't know about nerfing relic shield but a better active on item 3092 would be awesome. I don't think it's even justifiable let alone worth it to get that item.

Prospector Pete11 votes

Yeah, it's stupid to have a hyper carry that ALSO has a decent early game.

Penns10 votes

I think theyre not nerfing her because there are some adc item changes or whatever coming. Id be ok with her being gunned down by nerfs and then burned by item 3153 nerfs too tho.

Pls no banerino

IcyPepper13 votes

I think they've learned from the cinderhulk deal, with the whole "nerf champion, nerf item, don't compensate champion" deal.

Still waiting for Sejuani love. Nothing to make her stupid OP, but something. Makes some of us frustrated that Vayne is getting special treatment, when in the past they would nerf the problem champions, then the item, and then revert some champion nerfs if needed.

BORK got buffed this season too. Shouldn't be hard to either revert that buff, nerf the buff, or just hit the problem champion already and then compensate her if she's struggling when BORK gets nerfed :/

Anidan4 votes

Meanwhile, AP Xin: "We nerfed him because we feel Sated Devourer will be absurd." -next patch- "Actually we were wrong, we're reverting the AP Xin nerfs."

Why can't Vayne get something like that if it's necessary? I mean, they've shown they have the capacity to do it. Also, I support Sej buffs.

Boomerangbro10 votes

These are actual hypercarries. KogMaw Twitch They have to work hard to get to their god like late game.

Vayne on the other hand, needs to reach lvl 6.

IceKingChernobog2 votes

you forgot when she finishes her item 3153 then she's officially hit "Late game"

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Which is rushed in vayne more often than the infinity edge.

Bergk9 votes

Two things set Vayne apart of every other ADC: %HP True Dmg and amazing Self-Peel. Silver bolts: No one would ever complain about this is it wasn't %HP True Damage. If it was physical damage, tanks can build armor. If it was flat true damage, tanks could build health. The fact that its %HP True Damage makes it impossible to build against. Self-Peel: No other ADC has the same self-peel that Vayne does, making her have an extremely safe laning phase, split-push capability, and 1v1. Condemn: extremely effectively offensively and defensively. Can be used defensively to create distance between her attacker and herself. Can be used offensively to stun an enemy that happened to be too close to terrain. With the exception of Ashe's ULTIMATE, Vayne is the only Marksman with a stun. Also note: Vayne's stun is LONGER than Ashe's ULTIMATE if Ashe fires her ult from the same distance as Vayne's condemn. (Jinx, Varus, and Caitlyn have roots which are no where's near as effective as stuns. Plus Condemn has no telegraph/setup time, unlike Jinx and Caitlyn's traps). Tumble: Gives Vayne much needed mobility, which by itself wouldn't be bad. But add her self-peel from Condemn in addition to a low cool-down mobility like Tumble, slap on a 1 second invisibility per Tumble with her ult and you have the safest marksman in the game. Add her %HP true damage and give her a 70AD bonus steroid from her ult and you have the highest DPS marksman in the game too.

tl;dr Vayne has just TOO much in her kit compared to the other marksman.

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

Silver bolts: No one would ever complain about this is it wasn't %HP True Damage. If it was physical damage, tanks can build armor. If it was flat true damage, tanks could build health. The fact that its %HP True Damage makes it impossible to build against.

Contrary to popular belief, the counter to Vayne's true damage is still to build health. Unless you have very high amounts of health and armor (Taric/Malphite/Rammus late game), she still does more physical damage than true damage. (Before "that guy" shows up: BotRK does physical damage.) So while she make take off more health with every W proc, you still have more health to deal with the rest of her damage. And also, it takes some time for her to stack her silver bolt procs. So even in the scenarios where it does deal the majority of her damage, there's still plenty of time to to engage and murder her. Unless you're a pure tank. In that case, I have to ask: where is the rest of your team?

KatCraft3 votes

You do realise Vaynes W does percentage health true damage? Vayne licks her lips greedily when some one stacks hp.

Zero Engine4 votes

[deleted]

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

1k HP > 10% true damage > you die in 10 procs 10k hp > 10% true damage > you die in 10 procs 100k hp > 10% true damage > you die in 10 procs

Rhai3 votes

And what about all the other damage? Besides, in order for her to get 10 procs on you, she needs to land 30 autos which at 2.5 attack speed takes 12 seconds.

Guy Fox Teemo4 votes

Thats purely off of just her passive, add in all the other damage in you die in 9 hits as a full fledged tank with a shit ton of health :/

KatCraft1 votes

Well no shit the argument you are making here is even though Vayne Is taking huge chunks of your health with her true damage, you still have some health left over any way.

The point you don't get is Health is still not an efficient stat to stack against Vayne, armor is. Buying frozen heart or thornmail counters Vayne more than Deadmans plate will. You counter her physical damage, as well as not getting brutally worn down by bork + w.

Health does help against Vayne but that's not the counter, armor is.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

Armor has a diminishing return. And while it may increase you effective health, you still need to build health for it to be relevant. Also note that I said building health is still the counter for her true damage. She can kill anyone in 30 AA's, but most of her damage is physical. Any ADC can kill anyone in 30 AA's (unless something horrible has happened). Having that extra health between procs lets you survive against her [and her team] longer.

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

Youre right - armor does help. But Vayne is an ADC. She is quite capable of building a last whisper (like the rest of them) to mitigate all that armor stacking. If she went a standard build, she crits as hard as other ADCs. She lifesteals as hard as other ADCs. Plus she kites as well as the best of them. And in lieu of not having waveclear, she gets a massive AD steroid on her ult.

The 10% max health damage is icing on the cake.

PePsiLemoNN7 votes

Hey , look ! I play vayne and I am 0-10 . NO PROBLEM ! I will finish my item 3153 in min 35 and will 1v3

KrizalidKof993 votes

1v5*

weeaboomer6 votes

Jinx

TurquoiseYoshi10 votes

At least Jinx takes an amount of skill to survive attacks early. Vayne has a dash and a point-and-click fuck-off button.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

Because a hypercarry ADC who hits a powerspike at one item (which is cheaper than most powerspike items) is totally balanced.

Carnage4 votes

Urgot best adc

MakeABronziesDay3 votes

I'm so glad riot doesnt listen to you boobs about balance. all of you have no clue what youre talking about. You have no experience with game design and balance of such a huge game with 120+ different champions. You are all a bunch of sheep who blindly follow what the LCS does. No pro player ever complains about vayne because they know how to exploit her weaknesses correctly and shut her down. Vayne is very vulnerable and easier to shut down if you adapt your gamestyle

TurquoiseYoshi21 votes

[{quoted}](name=PBnJ cu at LAN,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cAO6aLYb,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-09-26T21:28:30.962+0000)

You are all a bunch of sheep who blindly follow what the LCS does. No pro player ever complains about vayne.

What's a contradiction?

Curling Veigar3 votes

Kog is half balanced.

AP kog maw on the other hand is ridiculously strong and often times you can beat him in lane but as soon as he buys that ludens echo gg your team if you dont have super hard engage

bobsenbob3 votes

I just want to make something clear here, vaynes early game may be weak, but it is not vulnerable, she has a very safe laning phase due to both her tumble and condemn

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