Season 5 was supposed to bring more JG diversity and it was never realized. World's saw very little JG diversity and now splits show very little JG diversity.
Does Riot have a plan to get more JG diversity into LCS play? IMO it is getting old seeing the same JG champs.
Yaskamasandwich9 votesThis just reminds me of that hilarious moment in patch rundown 6.1. "Yeah jungle is great we got Lee Sin, Elise, uh ..."
Mango Loco1 votesMeteos made my day in that video
Ulquiorra9955 votesDon't worry, Elise will get what's coming to her for daring to contest with Lee again soon enough.
Maximum Morde1 votesSometimes uhhh Reksai too.
Br4ndon1 votesRek'Sai is so insanely boring to watch. Knock up bot then run and wait until you can knock up again. So boring.
But at least its not Lee Sin for the 5th season in a row. Or Elise landing E then rolling her face on the keyboard.
Phoenix Kotori 1 votes
say hi, too bad kindred is banned so much, she's more interesting to watch, imo.
But yea besides occasional jungle graves as well it's pretty bad.
LiveYiOrDieHard6 votesRiot doesn't care.
Which is why they ignored us when we complained about their crappy jungle update from the start.
jaymc11301 votesRiot doesn't care.
Which is why they ignored us when we complained about their crappy jungle update from the start.
^ I straight up said the changes killed jg diversity back when patch 5.23 was released. Nothing about any of the last 4 patches was a positive direction for league of legends. The game is in the worst state overall that its ever been in. Period. There is no denying this at this point.
The game play is stale and stagnant just like season 2 and 3, with only one real viable strategy, snowball and win in 25.
Diversity in each role is non existent.
There isn't even a semblance of balance.
The fundamental nature of the game was destroyed with the removal of so much vision.
For all intents and purposes this game is no longer playable as a solo player. Its pointless to play any map mode as less than a full 5 team.
The overall quality of the gaming experience is just as toxic and depressing as its always been.
This is a bad game right now.
Abyssphere5 votesIt is pathetic right now. Feels like last season had a few change ups in jungle roster but all of the champions that aren't ALWAYS strong in the jungle were just gutted. I miss seeing Evelynn, Gragas, Sej, Nid, even Vi and Jarvan. But it feels like Riot nerfs every jungler that gets strong unless they're Lee.
Expecting nerfs to Rek and Elise very soon, Elise could be nerfed even in the next patch.
YumaS2Astral1 votesIt is pathetic right now. Feels like last season had a few change ups in jungle roster but all of the champions that aren't ALWAYS strong in the jungle were just gutted. I miss seeing Evelynn, Gragas, Sej, Nid, even Vi and Jarvan. But it feels like Riot nerfs every jungler that gets strong unless they're Lee.
Expecting nerfs to Rek and Elise very soon, Elise could be nerfed even in the next patch.
What about Lee Sin? Aren't they going to nerf him?
Abyssphere3 votesWhat about Lee Sin? Aren't they going to nerf him?
Doubt it. They went all of last season without nerfing him.
gottrjr3 votesLCS JG arguably has the least amount of champ diversity right now. Rek'sai and/or Elise are in every game. They nerfed Sej and Gragas out of LCS play.
I feel like Amumu, Voli, and Rengo would all be viable, just to name a few. So why are we not seeing them in LCS play?
ZephyrDrake5 votesLCS JG arguably has the least amount of champ diversity right now. Rek'sai and/or Elise are in every game. They nerfed Sej and Gragas out of LCS play.
I feel like Amumu, Voli, and Rengo would all be viable, just to name a few. So why are we not seeing them in LCS play?
Amumu is so easily punishable in SoloQ now imagine what will happen to him in an organized environment. He is very easily shutdown and Rengar... i have no idea, i guess pro teams consider hi too risky at pro play lvl and see him nothing more than a SoloQ stomper. Voli might see some play but when all he does is run at you vs the rest who can jump or have some amount of range cc... it would take quite a while for Voli to see jungle use. He might see some play top though
gottrjr1 votesAmumu is so easily punishable in SoloQ now imagine what will happen to him in an organized environment. He is very easily shutdown and Rengar... i have no idea, i guess pro teams consider hi too risky at pro play lvl and see him nothing more than a SoloQ stomper. Voli might see some play but when all he does is run at you vs the rest who can jump or have some amount of range cc... it would take quite a while for Voli to see jungle use. He might see some play top though
Good points.
magic pole1 votesagreed except that i don't think voli will see play. He is way too easy to kite, especially by a team of pros
Erockandroll1 votesLCS JG arguably has the least amount of champ diversity right now. Rek'sai and/or Elise are in every game. They nerfed Sej and Gragas out of LCS play.
I feel like Amumu, Voli, and Rengo would all be viable, just to name a few. So why are we not seeing them in LCS play?
The other issue might be comp orientation. Which is big in the LCS, as these are high communication, professional teams.
Those champs might actually be strong. But if they don't fit into your team comp, they will never get picked.
The only way around that is if a teamcomp was formed around said champion. But if that made it a Viable Strat, the champion in question would almost certainly be broken.
Of coarse, Riot will eventually change things around to prevent the LCS from becoming stale. But it's really harder than it looks to create diversity in comps, as apposed to maintaining a revolving door. That said, I do feel like LCS Jungle has greater diversity than you think. Rek'sai and Elise, might hold top spots, But we have had Kindred played a number of times, I do believe their was even a few Grave's jungles as well if I'm not mistaken, and we even have One Nid Jungle. Even though Runic echo should have been a nerf to her, compared to Glaive. And of coarse we always have lee sin.
Very Hard Engage1 votesthats because its boring for 35minute farm games to be ended by a single ult which just wins the game. "well both carries got hit by the flash ult and.... the rest of the team dove forwards at that time.... thats boring, we want more skill shots and hypercarries with resets!"
ProfDrDeath1 votesBecause the pros only play early-game junglers, as they rely on them to get their teams ahead.
Nidalee, Elise, Lee Sin, Rek'Sai...they all feature extremely potent early ganks and/or are not reliant on a long cooldown to do much in a fight. The longest fighting ability cooldown between the four of them is on Lee Sin's ultimate, with 90/75/60 seconds.
Add the new AP item to that, which vastly improved the early assassination potential of the AP junglers (10% MS that early into the build is terribly powerful, and the 100 bonus damage from the Echoes proc does also help).
gottrjr1 votesBecause the pros only play early-game junglers, as they rely on them to get their teams ahead.
Nidalee, Elise, Lee Sin, Rek'Sai...they all feature extremely potent early ganks and/or are not reliant on a long cooldown to do much in a fight. The longest fighting ability cooldown between the four of them is on Lee Sin's ultimate, with 90/75/60 seconds.
Add the new AP item to that, which vastly improved the early assassination potential of the AP junglers (10% MS that early into the build is terribly powerful, and the 100 bonus damage from the Echoes proc does also help).
Thanks for making this clear. I had been thinking they kept picking strong CC champs but that isn't as important as the early gank champs (CC is a plus of course).
magic pole1 votesalso all of these champs have decent or excellent sustain.
reksai i think sees "buffs" this preseason. Since vision is limited, her tremor sense is an underrated tool
XxxLumberJackxxX1 votesAmumu is terrible in competitive play and easily abused. VOli needs items and jungle is usually the last person to get gold in competitive. Rengar is easy for good teams (lcs) to outmaneuver.
BluePolarizer1 votesthe requirements for an LCS jungler are:
Previously, the jungler got enough gold where assassins were viable. Season 3, 4 and 5 had 
as viable LCS junglers (Skarner was picked multiple times in s5 worlds) even though they needed alot of gold to build damage.
Sire Hippington1 votesyou don't see them for the same reason that you don't see xin: they lack a plan B. If they fall behind and get cought by the opposeing jungler, they die, same if they invade themself and their oppoents react and collaps on them or if they run into a countergank. Lee can wardhop, elise has E and cocoon, resai her tunnles, amumu has to pray for a monster over the next wall so he can use Q, voli and rengo have next to nothing at all. haveing no reliable escape-mechanism is a huge drawback, especially in the pro-jungle. Rengar specifically also has a rather bad pre-6 and is pretty usless if he falls behind
Dragonapocalypse3 votesthe jung got harder in the early levels with overall less xp and gold, makes it kinda challenging to bring in certain champs who already had hard beginning clears
Veraska3 votesThe bar is to high for most junglers to succeed in the LCS they have to compete with really potent early game picks like elise or kindred, or they have to offer some insane utility like rek'sai tremor sense
You'll see other junglers here and there but the amount of things you gotta measure up to to function are to much you need
-clear speed -Strong map Control -Potent pre lvl 6 gank in -Potent non ult dependent skirmishing -Flexibility with itemization (can you function as a carry and a support)
Or you need some insane immeasurable utility that makes up for a lack of these things (rengars ult revealing hidden units is the best example I can think of)
Junglers need to be good at too much stuff and there's a handful of junglers who are really good at all of it, so not picking them puts your team at a disadvantage
Ulquiorra9952 votesWe had diversity when Cinderhulk was at its prime. Unfortunately, in that meta Lee wasn't universal number one pick and his pick rate had almost fallen below 1/3rd of the games, which is a big no-no at Riot games.
Sire Hippington2 votesWell, jungle stay the same every season with little exeptions: only junglers with alot early pressure are used in competetive play since S3.
For adding more diversity in the jungle, they have to reduce the impact of junglers early in the game and give some more benefits for farming the jungle, though that again is complicated, as many stong early junglers are strong because they clear fast and sustained, which allows the to spent so much time ganking/invadeing without falling behind all to far if it doesn't work. If they get nerfed on that, they have to little 'free'-time to actually make use of their strengths and thus directly drop from op to up... like nauti or even seju. Their ganks are powerfull, but their clears aren't great, so they have very few opportunities to really make use of that ganks.
gottrjr1 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bvHtfE4E,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-01-19T00:04:04.845+0000)
Well, jungle stay the same every season with little exeptions: only junglers with alot early pressure are used in competetive play since S3.
For adding more diversity in the jungle, they have to reduce the impact of junglers early in the game and give some more benefits for farming the jungle, though that again is complicated, as many stong early junglers are strong because they clear fast and sustained, which allows the to spent so much time ganking/invadeing without falling behind all to far if it doesn't work. If they get nerfed on that, they have to little 'free'-time to actually make use of their strengths and thus directly drop from op to up... like nauti or even seju. Their ganks are powerfull, but their clears aren't great, so they have very few opportunities to really make use of that ganks.
This leads into my next question, from a design perspective, what could be done to increase JG diversity?
Some ideas (just brainstorming):
What can Riot actually do to create real JG diversity?
Sire Hippington1 votesinteresting idea, but not really anything balanced but strangely forced. Though i'd really to see a pro-format there~40 random champs are aviable as a pool and teams have to adapt to a new pool ever month or so.
wouldn't solve the issue, as it would still only be one playstyle in the jungle, little difference from just haveing the same champ with different skins
That would be a good atempt, though the question is how one achive that?
certainly something that can be done and probably the best shortterm solution, just adding x% more damage vs champions on some skills for junglers with weak clears. Though changes are that tanks then just push aside the current fighters by bringer more powerfull ganks and better scaleing without much remaining weaknesses.
Another option would be better rewards for actually jungleing rather than ganking in terms of gold, and therefor xp with a stack system, where your jungle item creats 1 stack every x sec, max 2, and killing a big monster consumes a stack to grant some good xp, so if you go far a gank rather than clearing camps, you dont fall behind in xp, but only in gold(unless the gank is succesfull ofc)
Aditionally, All jungle champs should be revisited and it needs to be determined where they are strong at. Most of the current junglers have not a specific strength, just a time they are strong(early), but in the early, they do it all, they clear fast, have sustain, good ganks and good dueling. They need to get narrowed down more. A champ that has the gank and duel potential of elise should pay for it with weaker clears. The base values and scaleing with items would have to be adressed aswell, as gank heavy champs would have less income than farm heavy and rely more on basevalues as they stay even in xp.
Another option would be to add more fallback patterns for laners and somehow attack freezing lanes, though i'm not sure what could be done vs freezing. Towers provide to little protection vs well coordinated dives early on, and playing save often causes laners to fall behind to much, especially carry laners, and especially at top, playing agressive and pushing the wave even as far as to the middle of the lane is already really dangerous. Maybe we might even need changes to terrain to make gankpaths harder till the outer turrets fall.
gottrjr1 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bvHtfE4E,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-01-19T19:00:25.735+0000)
interesting idea, but not really anything balanced but strangely forced. Though i'd really to see a pro-format there~40 random champs are aviable as a pool and teams have to adapt to a new pool ever month or so.
wouldn't solve the issue, as it would still only be one playstyle in the jungle, little difference from just haveing the same champ with different skins
That would be a good atempt, though the question is how one achive that?
certainly something that can be done and probably the best shortterm solution, just adding x% more damage vs champions on some skills for junglers with weak clears. Though changes are that tanks then just push aside the current fighters by bringer more powerfull ganks and better scaleing without much remaining weaknesses.
Another option would be better rewards for actually jungleing rather than ganking in terms of gold, and therefor xp with a stack system, where your jungle item creats 1 stack every x sec, max 2, and killing a big monster consumes a stack to grant some good xp, so if you go far a gank rather than clearing camps, you dont fall behind in xp, but only in gold(unless the gank is succesfull ofc)
Aditionally, All jungle champs should be revisited and it needs to be determined where they are strong at. Most of the current junglers have not a specific strength, just a time they are strong(early), but in the early, they do it all, they clear fast, have sustain, good ganks and good dueling. They need to get narrowed down more. A champ that has the gank and duel potential of elise should pay for it with weaker clears. The base values and scaleing with items would have to be adressed aswell, as gank heavy champs would have less income than farm heavy and rely more on basevalues as they stay even in xp.
Another option would be to add more fallback patterns for laners and somehow attack freezing lanes, though i'm not sure what could be done vs freezing. Towers provide to little protection vs well coordinated dives early on, and playing save often causes laners to fall behind to much, especially carry laners, and especially at top, playing agressive and pushing the wave even as far as to the middle of the lane is already really dangerous. Maybe we might even need changes to terrain to make gankpaths harder till the outer turrets fall.
I think you have some good stuff here. Rewards for clearing early camps could possibly shift the focus from ganking to clearing. Maybe global team gold for first full clear?
"3. That would be a good atempt, though the question is how one achive that?"
Zone top, mid, and bottom in lane till average team level is 6. Maybe use the wall mechanic they have at the base and/or an extra turret. Once the team reaches lvl 6 then the extra turret and walls go away. Although this would probably change too many of the game mechanics. People would start taking TP to get into the zones via wards.
Sire Hippington1 votesMaybe global team gold for first full clear?
that gives me an idea: each small camp gives a 'totem-buff', if you have one totem of each kind, the buffs disapear and you gain x gold, maybe with aditionally smoe small global gold
Zhis encurages clearing the full jungle rather than focusing on one half of the map, and it makes counterjungleing more viable as denying a totem would prevent you opponent from getting the extra gold till it respawns.
gottrjr1 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bvHtfE4E,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-19T20:12:36.800+0000)
that gives me an idea: each small camp gives a 'totem-buff', if you have one totem of each kind, the buffs disapear and you gain x gold, maybe with aditionally smoe small global gold
Zhis encurages clearing the full jungle rather than focusing on one half of the map, and it makes counterjungleing more viable as denying a totem would prevent you opponent from getting the extra gold till it respawns.
This is similar to the stacking mechanic another poster mentioned and a good idea. Somehow they need to reward both clearing and ganking to make the JG more dynamic. It just makes more sense right now to gank instead of farm and the JG is lopsided because of this which is reducing JG champion diversity.
BluePolarizer2 votesWithout changing the game fundamentally:
Add the conservation mechanic from season 3/4 back with modifications: Jungle items generate 2 stack per second capping at 80. Killing a large monster gives you gold equal to stacks up to 40 and removes the same number of stacks.
If you gank too much and fail, you fall way behind junglers that heavily farm the jungle on cooldown. However, if you farm too much, you won't make significantly more money from conservation than a jungler that farms just enough to get stacks off and then ganks. This was even more punishing towards gankers with the fast respawn of camps, meaning that every second a camp is up and not being farmed, they're losing money. This also gives more gold for fast farming carry junglers.
The season 3 and 4 jungles had alot of interesting picks like 
in addition to 
because Conservation allowed weak gankers/fast farmers to farm and scale ahead of gankers.
GundayMonday2 votesIt's the vision problems driving this. You can't ward since you can't buy green wards, and the wards you have don't last very long, so the early game has a black map and is dominated by gank heavy pressure junglers. If you don't play one of those, you risk falling behind if they get a good gank or two off. So makes no sense to see any other jungler if you want to win. This is especially true the way the minions snowball inward with towers going down now.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 voteswe just crushed G2 (eu lcs team) with shyvana jungle, maybe they will copy it now.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesmost lcs champs are low risk high reward. and they usually go for the tanky/utility team fighting jg. yeah basically reksai and elise
Dominick Destine2 votesreksai and elise
Bug master race !
But it makes sense, bugs love arid jungle environments so Riot was very accurate , aehuehuaehuehuhue.... no but seriously; Overloaded kits like Elise, Rek Sai and Lee Sin tend to greatly favor the jungle, they all need nerfs to balance them out.
By the way; I love Riot and their game, but do the future incoming Elise/Rek Sai nerfs remind anyone of the S3 Elise debacle? I.e. Community: Riot, Elise is the only jungler that can stand up to Lee, please do something! Riot: Ok we take care of it (Next patch, brutally smacks down Elise with the nerf bat) Community: /facepalm
Earl Eulrich1 votesBy the way; I love Riot and their game, but do the future incoming Elise/Rek Sai nerfs remind anyone of the S3 Elise debacle? I.e.
which has been written by a lot of people on these baords when she got buffed back into existence...they just didn´t fix any of the gameplay problems when they did so. It´s still purly either her dominating the jungle or her being useless based on numbers.
ofart1 votesReally? I think it's better than it has been all of last season and we have some new picks too like Graves jungle.
Cobbler Potato1 votesWell now that they nerfed Zac's E (elastic slingshot) he is no more difficult to play as it is significantly harder to predict where your E will land. Now the only way to see the target indicator is to activate the ability, which (if you did not aim in the right direction) will a have to be canceled and now you missed your perfect gank opportunity. And how does this relate to jg diversity? Well Zac is still an unpopular pick except maybe in those featured challenger matches and with his increased difficulty, people who already struggle will struggle even more, leading to a decline in Zac being chosen.
I am Pacman1 votesThe reason we are seeing low diversity in the jungle in LCS is because frankly the champ who is jungle needs to be able to fit in to any comp freely.
Lee sin, Rek sai (especially with her unique vision scouting), Elise and Nidalee can all fill roles of dmg, tank, intiation, peel, high mobilty, lots of vision, and all are pretty safe both in their own jungles and counterjungling/scouting. They all have pretty great early game dmg and ganks, which can also result in snowballs.
This versatility is invaluable, it basically means that during the ban/pick phases you can easily take one of them, secure yourself a pretty good jungler who can do alot and not give away anything to the enemy about what you plan your comp around or what kind of comp.
If they picked amumu first, he would get fcked in the jungle but the enemy would also know that you plan on going wombo or heavy engage, thus likely to pick janna, lucian, ahri, ect to disengage and counter your comp. The above mentioned picks give nothing away.
TL;DR Lee, Rek, Nid, Elise all fill multiple roles and can be picked without consequence in champ select
gottrjr1 votesThis has been a good and educational discussion. It has me thinking "what makes an LCS JG champ?". So far this is what I have:
If we use the above criteria for a basis to select our JG champs then the following champs should be viable picks:
(These are just talking points and not meant to be a definitive list)
