When you pick a champ and the little picture of them pops up on your side your team should not be able to ban set champ, it would prevent people troll banning. This would only apply to your team, the enemy team would still be able to freely ban those champs(as they can't actually see what you're trying to lock in as).
HalcyonDweller3 votesIn theory this would be nice, but in practice, some people are going to abuse this or it's going to have unintended consequences.
If you're last pick and you show pick intent as one of the most OP top contenders for pick or ban in the current meta, it's going to get picked long before you get your turn to lock in the champion. This is unfair to your team, because you prevent them from being able to choose not to play against it.
Just do what I do, don't show your pick intent until after the ban phase. If you want to play Zoe, pick another artillery mage with utility like lux, then if somebody bans your pick intent you will still be able to pick Zoe. This way if they ban Zoe then you will know it is simply because they don't want to play against her, and not something they did just to troll you.
Jo0o1 votesOf course, the flip side of that is that showing your intent is SUPPOSED to communicate to your teammates your desire to play that champ.
If I want to play Yasuo, I know that many folks hate playing against him and will ban him. I should be able to indicate my desire to play Yasuo to let my teammates know not to ban him. Simply showing a similar champ allows the team to have a good comp, but fails to communicate my desire for them to NOT ban my pick. Plus, with a champ like Yasuo, it helps when teammates pick champs with knockups to synergize.
HalcyonDweller2 votesWell... yes. But some people out there suck ass and do choose to ban pick intentions for trolling reasons. This is why we can't have nice things. Because some people are degenerates.
I'd certainly like to see this in a blind pick mode. Imagine a blind pick where each team's bans only applied to their opponents? That would be absolutely awesome, and with the addition of role assignment from the latest queue mode, people wouldn't have to worry about their position being stolen as much as in blind pick.
MirrorU1 votesYes but let's say you show yasou and then your teammate bans him(which happens too much). Now not only are you pissed that he banned your pick but also you're less likely to win because in your mind the thought process is now "fuck that guy why should he win when he's banning my best opportunity for a win". Which is a lot more likely to spawn trolling, int feeding, and the like. Now of course seasoned people will likely let it go especially in ranked but you see the point I'm trying to make right?
Jo0o2 votesYes, and I agree with it.
Ultimately, there's no perfect answer here. When you allow friendly banning, you allow both trolling and the potential for teammates to start bickering before the match even starts. When you disallow friendly banning, you get both a different kind of trolling and the potential for teammates to make bad decisions in champ select without the other folks getting any say in the matter.
I'd rather a player's pick be a higher priority than a teammate's ban. I think the overall amount of champ select trolling would drop, and it would promote better sportsmanship and teammate cohesion. Riot disagrees, and these debates never really seem to go anywhere =(
MirrorU1 votesYes it does seem to be a pointless discussion in either direction.
Jo0o1 votesEh, I don't think they're pointless. They just tend not to be productive.
Riot changes their system all the time. It's not unreasonable to think that, at some point in the future, they'll agree that the benefits of preventing friendly bans outweigh the negatives.
MirrorU1 votesThat is my hope but if the last 7 years are any indicator it's unlikely.
MirrorU1 votesIf it goes the way you're saying then you're team lost long before you even started the game, because then your team intentionally bans someone who you wanted to pick, now sure they might have been picked first or countered, but by them banning him before you even had a chance to pick him you'll genuinely start to hate and resent your teammates, now I don't know about you but if someone bans my pick when they see I want to pick that champ that immediately tells me that I want nothing to do with this team, they can lose for all I care.
Furthermore these kinds of issues will never occur to professional/good teams, because they communicate beforehand about needing to ban a champ that would otherwise get picked, this would only happen in solo que and low ranked que where no one communicates.
HalcyonDweller1 votesMost of your arguments in this latest comment are not helping your cause:
If it goes the way you're saying then you're team lost long before you even started the game, because then your team intentionally bans someone who you wanted to pick, now sure they might have been picked first or countered, but by them banning him before you even had a chance to pick him you'll genuinely start to hate and resent your teammates, now I don't know about you but if someone bans my pick when they see I want to pick that champ that immediately tells me that I want nothing to do with this team, they can lose for all I care.
You make it sound like you would int if a teammate banned your pick. What good would that do? You're in the game anyway, if you didn't dodge. Might as well try to make the most of it and still have fun.
Additionally, there's 3 other people in the game who did nothing to you. It seems like a huge waste of time IMO to take it out on the rest of them just because one person might have possibly been a dick.
If they genuinely do not want to play against the champion and you are not first pick, you have no business taking it personally when they ban your champion. Unless they specifically say something to you about it to indicate that they did it to spite you, then I'd say you should report that motherfucker.
Furthermore these kinds of issues will never occur to professional/good teams, because they communicate beforehand about needing to ban a champ that would otherwise get picked, this would only happen in solo que and low ranked que where no one communicates.
If that's the case then there's even less reason to implement this change. It would not benefit good players where communication is already good enough. And it would lead to further toxicity in lower skilled games because teams would be pissed that somebody denied them the opportunity to ban a champion before the enemy team could first-pick it.
Lastly, the whole point of the ban phase is to shake up the meta and give players the opportunity to say, "I don't want to deal with this particular champion this game." If players could show pick intent for top tier meta champions and thus prevent their teammates from banning them then both teams would just be using the top 10-15 champions in the meta and there would be no diversity.
MirrorU1 votesWhat you seem to be forgetting is that once your pick gets banned by your team you aren't focusing on the "other 3 people" you're focusing on the dickhead who banned your pick.
Secondly "If that's the case then there's even less reason to implement this change. It would not benefit good players where communication is already good enough." Somehow you're under the impression that changes have to be made only when they effect everyone for the better and not just part of the community. A very small % of the community is good players, if they made changes based on your logic this game would have a change once every 2 years.
And for your last assertion that banning is a chance for players to say "i dont want to deal with this particular champion this game". As where that's true in essence the real reason for banning is actually when you don't want to deal with that champion on the ENEMY TEAM this game. Because if you're banning a champ regardless what team he's on because "you don't want to deal with it" then you're the worst kind of troll, the one who's truly out for themselves and not thinking about their team at all.
HalcyonDweller1 votesSecondly "If that's the case then there's even less reason to implement this change. It would not benefit good players where communication is already good enough." Somehow you're under the impression that changes have to be made only when they effect everyone for the better and not just part of the community. A very small % of the community is good players, if they made changes based on your logic this game would have a change once every 2 years.
Fair point. I stand by the other part of my argument though, the change wouldn't just help one part of the community. It would also hurt parts of the community. It's not all positive like you're trying to make it sound.
And for your last assertion that banning is a chance for players to say "i dont want to deal with this particular champion this game". As where that's true in essence the real reason for banning is actually when you don't want to deal with that champion on the ENEMY TEAM this game. Because if you're banning a champ regardless what team he's on because "you don't want to deal with it" then you're the worst kind of troll, the one who's truly out for themselves and not thinking about their team at all.
I'm not defending people who ban your champion in an effort to troll you. But I certainly won't condemn people who just don't want to risk the enemy team first-picking something that is OP or annoying to play against.
It's not a black and white issue like you make it sound. The lines aren't clear cut, and it's hard to tell what a person's real intent is when they ban something. If it is something that is OP or annoying to play against then it's absolutely possible - and even likely - that they banned it because they don't want to play against it. You cannot assume that they did it for personal reasons against you. Occam's Razor only works when you have eliminated all other possibilities. Which it seems like you haven't. Stop jumping to conclusions and attacking everyone as if they are trolls.
What you seem to be forgetting is that once your pick gets banned by your team you aren't focusing on the "other 3 people" you're focusing on the dickhead who banned your pick.
Wait wait WHAT? Are you saying you think it is okay to punish the entire team by inting if ONE person on the team bans your intended pick?
Being wronged is no excuse for shitty behavior. We are expected to behave properly in this community regardless of what others do to us. Riot has made that perfectly clear to all of us.
MirrorU1 votesI'll agree with you on points 1 and 2, but as for point 3, I'm not saying you should punish your entire team for the actions of 1 person. What I'm saying is that once that 1 person bans your pick your entire point of anger is with that 1 person, and the other 3 will end up being collateral damage because I've yet to find a person who will play nicely with someone who has intentionally acted like a dick to them before the game even started. In short there is no scenario where you're starting off in a good place after someone banned your pick intentionally, at best you'll be ignoring them, and at worst you'll spin out and concentrate on ruining their game and spend no time focusing on winning your own(depending on what kind of person you are).
HalcyonDweller1 votesI'll agree with you on points 1 and 2, but as for point 3, I'm not saying you should punish your entire team for the actions of 1 person.
Alright. I'm glad we are beginning to understand one another. Just to be clear, I do respect you. I just have some grievances with some of your points of argument.
What I'm saying is that once that 1 person bans your pick your entire point of anger is with that 1 person, and the other 3 will end up being collateral damage because I've yet to find a person who will play nicely with someone who has intentionally acted like a dick to them before the game even started. In short there is no scenario where you're starting off in a good place after someone banned your pick intentionally, at best you'll be ignoring them, and at worst you'll spin out and concentrate on ruining their game and spend no time focusing on winning your own(depending on what kind of person you are).
Point 1:
The problem I have with your arguments here is that it seems like you think that anybody and everybody who ever bans your pick is doing it to troll you. What about the people who genuinely aren't? Why is it fair to assume they are just like the others? Why is it fair to assume they are a troll too? Why is it fair to retaliate against them even though they had absolutely no intention of hurting or spiting you?
Point 2:
Regardless of what you think was done. It is never okay to make other people collateral damage in your vendetta against that person. I understand feeling upset and I understand being hurt about it, but that is as far as it goes. Any action taken by you with the intention of ruining the game is then 100% in the wrong all on its own. Retaliation is not self-defense, revenge is not justice. Lost temper is no excuse for wrongs committed.
Point 3:
If you have a problem with the player's actions, report them and Riot will investigate. If negative behavior is found, such as if they said, "haha that's for not giving me your role" after banning your intended pick, then Riot will punish them for it. But it is not your place nor your responsibility to punish the player yourself.
MirrorU1 votesI'm not saying they are intentionally collateral damage, I'm saying they will BE collateral damage, there is no way around it. It's like this, you go into a game with a great mindset, then someone bans your champ. Now your mindset is angry, now the rest of the team does what they do but you'll still be angry for someone banning your champ, so they are at the mercy of being on a team with a teammate that's already in a bad mood from another teammate being a dick to them.
Now let's say he isn't trolling but he genuinely banned that champ because he doesn't wanna see him, unless he told you he was gonna ban him beforehand it will always seem like a dick move if you wanted to pick him, because he knows that champ isn't gonna be used by the enemy team unless they steal him and knows you want to use him and still chooses to ban him regardless of those 2 things.
Now as for the reporting of course you're going to report them, but so what? Riot doesn't care if someone bans a champ you wanted to use, it's not against any rules and they have no reason to look at anything beyond that, all they'll see is you got pissed over a ban, their attitude towards it is actually kind of your like yours "just get over it". They don't see it as an offense intended to start tilting a person before the game starts.
HalcyonDweller1 votesI'm not saying they are intentionally collateral damage, I'm saying they will BE collateral damage, there is no way around it. It's like this, you go into a game with a great mindset, then someone bans your champ. Now your mindset is angry, now the rest of the team does what they do but you'll still be angry for someone banning your champ, so they are at the mercy of being on a team with a teammate that's already in a bad mood from another teammate being a dick to them.
Yeah I get it. Somebody pisses you off then you are bound to react poorly. I understand that you're not specifically choosing to hurt the other 3 players. I'm just saying that losing your temper is no excuse for ruining everything. The end doesn't justify the means. Just because you are pissed and want to punish the person for being a dick to you does not make it acceptable or excusable that you negatively affected 3 others collaterally.
Now let's say he isn't trolling but he genuinely banned that champ because he doesn't wanna see him, unless he told you he was gonna ban him beforehand it will always seem like a dick move if you wanted to pick him, because he knows that champ isn't gonna be used by the enemy team unless they steal him and knows you want to use him and still chooses to ban him regardless of those 2 things.
People should always discuss things before locking in a decision, however not everybody does. And sometimes people were afk or they didn't see, and maybe they have a default ban that they just do instantly without looking at their teammates' intended picks. There's too many possible reasons for it, it's unfair to simply assume they are a dick and take it out on them for being one.
Now as for the reporting of course you're going to report them, but so what? Riot doesn't care if someone bans a champ you wanted to use, it's not against any rules and they have no reason to look at anything beyond that, all they'll see is you got pissed over a ban, their attitude towards it is actually kind of your like yours "just get over it". They don't see it as an offense intended to start tilting a person before the game starts.
I understand, and I feel your pain. The problem here is that we cannot overdo it with our accusations. There's a piece of advice I've been given by somebody wise in the past, "Pick your fights and choose your punches carefully." In this case it means you shouldn't go after everybody who bans your pick. Crying wolf every time something happens is just a surefire way to get yourself ignored in the future. Your complaints will be much more effective and much better heard if you only go after the extremely obvious cases.
Indeed in a lot of cases the player is not going to be punished, because a lot of the time it's not obvious why they did it. But that does not mean we are completely without a means of proving their intent and (if that intent was to troll) getting them punished. The act of banning another player's pick is not necessarily punishable, but the act of teasing and bullying you after having done so certainly is.
There's a little trick I like to use, I call it, "Why did you do that?" Nothing more nothing less. No need to be inflammatory, no need to be too polite either. Just a neutral statement to give the player an opportunity to prove their own intent.
If the person is a troll, they will admit it, because they want you to know they did it on purpose. If they aren't a troll, they will usually apologize, explain that they didn't see, or explain that they didn't want the enemy team to get it.
If they admit to trolling, you can then report the player and explain that they admitted to banning your pick solely for the purpose of trolling you. I'm pretty sure Riot would do something about that, as they hate it when people misuse their systems just to hurt people, and they probably would jump at the chance to deal with it if they have a clear cut case that is easy to prove.
Go easy on the reports though. I've heard in the past that if you report too often or your reports are deemed false flags too much then you lose relevance in the reporting system. This would mean that your reports would be worth less in the future. So don't waste them on the cases that are 'maybes' or 'unknowns' just save your reports for the cases where the person admits to the wrongdoing.
MirrorU1 votesI generally don't report people unless they really deserve it, like inting, or being toxic, pick bans has never been in my reasons for reporting a person unless its crystal clear that they did it intentionally just to be a dick to you or someone else and usually than they go on to be dickish to people all game, but otherwise I don't even bother with a report.
HalcyonDweller1 votesAh I see. It seems we agree generally about things.
I still think that you would be better off not retaliating against people for banning your pick. If you're interested in trying it though I recommend that "why did you do that?" trick. If they are trolling then they will often fall for the trap and admit it and you can report them for it after that.
MirrorU1 votesI will try it, it should root most of the trolls out. Unless they're trundle, in which case they get an automatic troll marker :P
HalcyonDweller1 votesBest of luck to you in your matches then. Have a nice day.
MirrorU1 votesAnd you as well sir!
xDingwithsalad2 votesNope, don't agree.
Imperial Pandaa2 votesNope. The only change I would like with it is a confirmation box, like, "Hey. A team mate has this hovered. Confirm ban?"
TheDenz1 votesI always viewed bans as veto power for players. There are still 130+ champs to play if one of them gets banned. I think the current system of giving you a heads up as to "hey your teammate preselected zoe even though their role is adc and they have last pick so the enemy team will pick her before hand so good luck winning in promos". But that is just my personal opinion.
MirrorU1 votesYou're forgetting 1 very important thing, most of us don't have 130 champs, a good portion of us only have starter champs, and the ones who have 130+ champs have been in this game long enough not to troll ban.
Rabblerouser1 votesAs much as it sucks to get banned by your own team, I think leaving it open to ban allows for better team flexibility.
MirrorU1 votesBut how is that flexibility when you know that the person you just banned was someone your teammate wanted to pick? That's just a straight up troll move no?