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RIOT needs to STOP PREACHING about DIVERSITY and.......

Moriss··29 votes·1,313 views

Let us have more then one god damm jungle item per archetype.

Seriously. We are on the third iteration of AP jungle item in the PBE.

You guy's want to emphasize freedom, expression, and play-style customization in all your sermons but it's all false prophecy because you don't really follow through. Jungler's pretty much are FORCED into taking a jungle item for the summoner 11 buff. Of which they're offered severely limited options based on the available stats offered. I could rant on and on about how severly limited the jungle is atm for those values you seem to preach every season but I imagine the majority of long time players will understand.

Tell me would the game break suddenly because Magus, Runeglaive, and Echo co-exist? These three co-existing would really offer all of that prophecy and intention you spew on a regular basis.

I hope this post doesn't come off as hateful. I'm simply unsatisfied with the how you guys handle the jungle..

38 Comments

Dreadlocks11 votes

Pretty much, and i hate how they remove items just because they arn't popular. (Like zephyrs) I mean some items i can understand being removed for balance issues, but why do they remove an item like Zephyrs but rework rageblade?

And then yeah, you have these jungle items in which you are pigeonholed whole'd into buying.. Not just the AP items that you've mentioned, but also warrior itself.. Why only have 1 AD item? Why not have 1 AD and 1 Armor pen focused.. and same with tanks? What if i want tenacity and CDR and not bonus HP... I dont get why they remove them all.

kile1471 votes

I feel like they remove items like Zephyr because it's rarely picked and nobody actually relies on it which means it can safely be removed without affecting balance. They remove it so that they don't have to devote resources to it, and so that they don't have to worry about possible niche abuse cases with it when making balance changes.

Dreadlocks2 votes

They could've safely removed rageblade too, hell even wits end could go given your argument..

kile1471 votes

They kinda did remove rageblade, then replaced it with something similar with the same name. I wish they did remove wits end but Kayle might still rely on it (idk)?

FrickendaChicken1 votes

Kayle, Udyr, Aatrox, Xin Zhao, Irelia Top lane Tahm Kench. Those are just champs that can rely on it very well and are on the top of my head.

It isn't an I NEED THIS IN EVERY GAME item, it's a situational, I need attack speed, 3 different sources of damage and MR to survive the game.

FrickendaChicken1 votes

Wit's End is still useful. Anyone who relies on auto attacks and needs MR can gain MASSIVELY from Wit's End. It's not that bad of an item. Gives 3 different damage sources for AA based champs (The passive and attack speed) and the MR given allows the auto attacker to fight longer, meaning they're doing more damage over all.

Dreadlocks1 votes

But my argument isn't that wits end is bad, my argument is: If Wits End is a ninche item and remains in the game, why was Zephyrs removed, even if it is a ninche item.

Subject 51 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much, and i hate how they remove items just because they arn't popular. (Like zephyrs) I mean some items i can understand being removed for balance issues, but why do they remove an item like Zephyrs but rework rageblade?

And then yeah, you have these jungle items in which you are pigeonholed whole'd into buying.. Not just the AP items that you've mentioned, but also warrior itself.. Why only have 1 AD item? Why not have 1 AD and 1 Armor pen focused.. and same with tanks? What if i want tenacity and CDR and not bonus HP... I dont get why they remove them all.

Rageblade is a Riot item, that literally has a riot emp. nametag in it.

So it's called favoring :D

Kaeblen7 votes

well, we already have item 1403 item 1400 for AD and AA junglers. item 1401 works great for tanks, and they can branch out to any any of the current 4 if they want to. (JarvanIV RekSai Shyvana can all be considered tanks, but do not always use cinderhulk.)

It would make sense for AP junglers to have a choice too. Amumu jg, Diana jg, and Fiddlesticks jg all have very different needs. Magus, Runeglaive, and Echo are all reasonable ideas, but none has been definitively shown as good for all of them. I for one would have nothing against Runeglaive and Echo co-existing.

Dar Raksada1 votes

{quoted}

well, we already have item 1403 item 1400 for AD and AA junglers. item 1401 works great for tanks, and they can branch out to any any of the current 4 if they want to. (JarvanIV RekSai Shyvana can all be considered tanks, but do not always use cinderhulk.)

It would make sense for AP junglers to have a choice too. Amumu jg, Diana jg, and Fiddlesticks jg all have very different needs. Magus, Runeglaive, and Echo are all reasonable ideas, but none has been definitively shown as good for all of them. I for one would have nothing against Runeglaive and Echo co-existing.

they're bruisers, not tanks.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

depends on what you build...J4 without off-gear doesn´t deal any dmg later on and is valuable only for his utility - which is sort of the story here: allowing players to choose in game, not only in champ-select.

Dar Raksada1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bk8JdcO4,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T17:41:37.386+0000)

depends on what you build...J4 without off-gear doesn´t deal any dmg later on and is valuable only for his utility - which is sort of the story here: allowing players to choose in game, not only in champ-select.

keystones kinda ruined the choose in game, not in champ select. But even Jarv's utility doesn't seem enough for a tank, compare it to someone like Nautilus, Sion, Leona, or Alistar. Those are tanks.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

really depends, i like picking him into immobile mids like ori or lux, as his ult really is devastating for engaging on them.

LF Annie5 votes

i wish riot would let some of the mixed scaling come back so i can play some oddball builds again on odd champs.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Cannot upvote enough, getting tired of their forced strategies.

windwolf7772 votes

I agree. They should bring back AP MasterYi. Obviously not with the 100% AP on Q and 400% on Meditate, but at least a little bit to make it a build path. (I know AP MasterYi is sorta a thing with item 3124, item 3115 item 3930 and other things but I mean an actual AP MasterYi)

forresto2 votes

still mourning ap tristana.

MisterHealYoGirl5 votes

Well, the jungle item limits are just to reduce complexity. The list of champions that are supported by Runeglaive and NOT Runic Echoes is miniscule, if it even exists. Some champions might work a tiny bit better with Magus than with Echoes, but the difference would be negligible. League already has an incredibly large burden of knowledge, and having more jungle items than are necessary would only make that worse.

Little Stick Man3 votes

except a good number of people who play this game aren't fucking drooling retards and could handle being able to choose between AP jungle item #1 and AP jungle items #2 if they had the choice.

MisterHealYoGirl4 votes

Realistically, adding one more item doesn't significantly change the amount of complexity in the game, but there's just no reason to; Magus, Runeglaive, and Echoes all do/did the exact same job. It'd be like having Van Damm's Pillager and Infinity Edge on the same map pre 5.11: they're two different items that do the same thing.

Little Stick Man2 votes

except junglers like fiddlesticks cant use the aoe from runeglaive because he barely auto attacks inbetween spells so he cant even use the passive

Earl Eulrich1 votes

no they don´t. runeglaive adds some burst an dps for those who can use it, magus adds consistent dmg/utlity through cdr and echoes adds some more burst to gank and ms...depending on the Champ you play and how the game develops these things can make a big difference (not to mention that someone like skarner works incredible well with Runeglaive to keep himself sustained while fast-clearing and really doesn´t work with echoes). and this is not about complexity, but mostly about choice that creates real diversity.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

Doesn't Skarner build Cinderhulk or Warrior? He's a tank juggernaut, not an AP assassin. And even if you decide to build him AP, Echoes should actually help Skarner MORE; it gives him the same clear and mana sustain, as well as additional move-speed to get into combat with, since mobility is one of his biggest weaknesses. Can you name, say, three champions who are really hurt by this change?

(It's like comparing Lich Bane to Luden's Echo; more or less everyone can work with Luden's, to varying degrees of efficiency, but, while some people (Diana, Evelynn) work well with Lich Bane, others (Fiddlesticks, Cho'Gath) can't use it very effectively.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

you can build cinderhulk or devourer aswell, warrior is really suboptimal - runeglaive is the better spike early on. also, you don´t go runeglaive->ap, you go runeglaive->tank...it´s mostly there to make sure that he doesn´t suffer manaproblems when clearing and can have a high gank-pressence around the map early on. Echos really doesn´t provide half the dmg that just the sheen means for Skarner. so right now you can decide if you want to go for early-mid (runeglaive) or mid to late dmg (devourer)/ tank (cinderhulk). there´s actual choice and thus some diversity when picking Skarner. That also exists for some other Champs, but Riot happily takes it away part for part over the last years.

(and for the 3champs that will dirly miss runeglaive: diana, skarner, fizz, eve, kassa, nasus,..all not tier 1 junglers anyway, and with less optimal itemization even less so)

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

http://www.lolking.net/champions/skarner#overview This says that Runeglaive is even less popular than devourer for Skarner. I don't play him myself, but it seems that it's not a popular choice for him. Other Sheen items (Triforce and Iceborn, specifically) are also fantastic on Skarner), and seem like they'd work fine.

For Diana, Echoes plays the exact same role as Runeglaive: it adds burst to her combo. Echoes actually adds burst to her poke, as well, though, and she's really good at charging it with her double dash and spammy spells; if she starts with it charged, it procs on her Q and procs again at the end of her combo, assuming decent travel her dashes. If anything, Echoes does MORE damage in her burst than RG did. Fizz is basically the same thing; his combo is fast and hard-hitting, although the loss of CDR does hurt him more than it hurts Diana.

Eve, although really good at charging Runeglaive, is also really good at charging Echoes, and the decreased reliance on staying in melee range may actually turn out to help her, since she's so easy to peel off of a carry. Evelynn has major problems, but a lack of Runeglaive probably isn't one of them. (And even if Echoes stinks, Eve is still viable with Cinderhulk and Warrior. Thanks, hybrid builds!)

Who played Kassadin jungle? His biggest problems in lane are that his clear sucks and he has no sustain, which don't exactly set him up for a career in the jungle. The only person I've ever seen play jungle Kassadin was Solwolf, and I don't know if i'd take advice from someone who plays ADC Bard top.

Nasus has the same things as Skarner: he's better toplane than jungle (stacks), better with Cinderhulk or Warrior than Runeglaive, and good enough with the other Sheen items that it's worth picking them up on their own.

forresto1 votes

The problem is also that riot has talked about wanting to open the jungle up to more champs, but a lot of champs don't really see runeglaive as an optimal first item, but also feel pigeonholed into it by the needs of jungling. this is especially bad since they reduced a lot of the things that originally made runeglaive decent when the jungler leaves jungle. As it stands, the runeglaive doesn't seem to add much for ganks and teamfights. It's basically just a crappy version of lich bane that doesn't add move speed, or much AP. Most champions are actually hurt by first-buying it.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

its so funny that jungle monsters have NEGATIVE MR lol. means that you do more damage to jungle monsters than you would if they were true damage from magic damage. shows you how weak ap junglers are

Kaeblen1 votes

I wish I could disagree, but that IS a very strong and demonstrative point.

Stellafreyja2 votes

This is what Riot stated in the patch notes for 6.1 (which were leaked early, link on Surrender @ 20):

On the point of, "Why not both?" we'll go back to the discussion we had when we replaced Magus. Specifically, if the goal of Runic Echoes is to serve all AP junglers equivalently or better than Runeglaive, then Runeglaive either becomes another Ohmwrecker (sorry) or it's an "alternative" choice for a smaller subset of AP junglers that skews their balance on yet another axis. The question we asked was, "What do we gain by keeping Runeglaive?" and while the diversity option for a few champions was nice, we trade a lot of clarity in balance to keep two items that should functionally serve the same class.

Take that as you may.

a wandering path1 votes

Yeah, just build a damn item and get on with your game. It's not that hard. It's like you expect them to create 30 different jungle items so that you can complain about having 30 different jungle items hurting your brain

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I've been unimpressed & unsatisfied with how they've handled several things in the past few years; just seems like they can't decide where to take it, so they drive it into the ground instead.

Lovely Pants1 votes

Jungle items are always going to be a bit of a forced crutch as a way to make a champion with a less reliable gold income function at a similar as they would with a reliable gold income. Short of just making the jungler another place for supports, which we've had several times.

I feel the rigidity of the need for jungle-summoner 11 items in themselves is kind of a necessary evil, since we've spent the better part of the previous 5 seasons with junglers essentially being allowed as little gold and experience by laners as possible. At least unless a more elegant solution ever pans out.

As for Runeglaive specifically though, it might be pretty safe to say that it's an item that falls along with the theme of those that Riot is simply uninterested in devoting the bandwith to supporting.

Matezoide1 votes

DIVERSITY DIVERSITY DIVERSITY

> Deletes useful items for no reason

Paroe1 votes

Actually the reason they cant have more than one jungle item is because theres a hard limit on the shop at 120 items. Any more than that the shop stops working so they dont want to get any nearer to that number than they have to.

Moriss1 votes

Bump. I've seen a lot of great discussion come from this thread so let's keep the discussion going =D

I hope enough people notice and we can make this noticed and push towards some kind of change. Rioters do pay attention to our post guys! We just need to make enough noise!

Please bump.

Also I have many individualized responses that I'll type later. Look forward to continuing this discussion with you guys.

WookieJesuz1 votes

Tank: -Cinderhulk -Thornmail-hulk AP: -Runeglaive -Runic Echo

AD: -Warrior (lee sin) -Devourer (yi)

RogueWill1 votes

Main jungler here. Currently you have a single option per champion for your jungle item upgrade. A few champion can run two different ones but always one is more beneficial than the other. The champions that run devoured can'r run warrior or runaiglabe, and so on and on. As for the 3 options for tier 2 upgrades there is always one more benefitial than the other two. Currently is the tracker one giving you the much more needed vision and there is no point on using the other two unless you are WW or some CC-less jungler for the chilling smite.

FrickendaChicken1 votes

You don't need both for mages.

For both AP and AD champs, there is Cinderhulk. For Attack speed auto attack champs, Devourer is the best choice For AD champs that rely further on their abilities to do more damage than their auto attacks, there's warrior.

For Ap champs, who do nothing but rely on their spells, Runeglaive simply isn't needed. Echo benefits all AP champs, RuneGlaive benefits SOME AP champs. There's no real point in keeping both when one is superior over the other in HUGE ways. There is no contest in something that can help every champion under it's umbrella, or help some, and leave the rest out.

I know you want to push for variety in the items, but what's more important is the variety in champions. Any champion can build any Item, but only 1 person (in ranked at least) in a game can play a champion. It's best to have every champion viable in at least one role than to have a bunch of champs do nothing and their mains don't even want to play them. It's more important for Riot to consider this than to consider items that take up more resources to keep going and make new ones for diversity in the items, then to replace and item and keep the champions. The biggest thing is, if you want the Runeglaive passive, purchase Lich Bane. Lich Bane has never been required on any champion before, and hopefully wouldn't ever be unless they were designed for that idea.

Even Diana and Akali don't need it.

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