What actual advantage does AP have over AD?

Arakadia··8 votes·868 views

AP:

Less variety and choice.

More expensive overall.

Most spells cost mana or health.

Many spells can be missed.

Only one crappy spell-vamp item that only a few niche champs use.

Every stat counts.

Cooldowns can make them defenseless, unlike AD which can always AA.

AD:

Take objectives MUCH faster.

Cheaper.

Costs no mana or health to AA. And yes however they do require time, their are alot of consistent dps mages who require much more mana/health, have to aim their main source of damage, and require time to take one down.

Basic Attacks cannot miss, with a few exceptions such as Shen and Jax.

Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 AD items that have life steal. There is also Warlords. Basic attacks also don't cost resources so you can heal for free as long as there is something to hit.

Even with spells on cooldown, they can always basic attack unlike AP.

Have access to certain items such as Rage Blade, Maw, Sturaks, etc. This removes alot of their squishyness.

With access to devourer, rage blade, and other similar items, they can have mixed damage.

33 Comments

Vesarixx7 votes

Generally AP Solo laners have more utility and better team fighting, while AD is more focused on duels and skirmishes and favors split pushing over team fighting, having AP solo laners also causes what's known as itemization trapping, an AP mid and top will mean that the jungler and top laner will need to itemize with MR over armor early, making dives more of a risk and therefore less likely early to mid game, as well as allowing your ADC to have more presence earlier as they won't have to worry about as much armor(very useful for utility carries who might otherwise lack the damage but also for hyper carries that may take a while longer to spike otherwise).

Arakadia2 votes

This is an acctaully good comment. This is a good point, however I beleive that the pros to AD over come the pros to AP by a longshot.

Hayaishi25 votes

We could've made the same topic a year ago and AP would've come out on top.

AP can't be the dominating stat for 4 seasons straight, deal with it.

WoonStruck3 votes

{quoted}

We could've made the same topic a year ago and AP would've come out on top.

AP can't be the dominating stat for 4 seasons straight, deal with it.

APs being mid doesn't mean AP>AD.

The only time AP was objectively better than AD was during the double-AP comp meta in season 2, where top laners were universally AP champs, outside of Irelia, since she thrived against most of those match-ups.

Hayaishi23 votes

{quoted}

APs being mid doesn't mean AP>AD.

The only time AP was objectively better than AD was during the double-AP comp meta in season 2, where top laners were universally AP champs, outside of Irelia, since she thrived against most of those match-ups.

No that wasn't the only time.

AP has been superior every single season, right before the moment AD itemization was reworked to be more cost efficient.

The complains are justified but it quit acting like Riot has some favoritism towards AD when AP itemization had always been ridiculous.

WoonStruck3 votes

{quoted}

No that wasn't the only time.

AP has been superior every single season, right before the moment AD itemization was reworked to be more cost efficient.

The complains are justified but it quit acting like Riot has some favoritism towards AD when AP itemization had always been ridiculous.

AP was strong, not superior.

AP was not dominating top lane. AP was not dominating jungle. No, Elise alone doesn't count as 'dominating jungle.'

AP has only ever reliably gone mid since the double AP comp days in season 2.

AD being as strong as it is currently is in no way comparable to the power of AP in the past. AD is ludicrously strong in comparison right now.

Another thing; AD was not borderline nonviable at any time in the past like the majority of AP currently are.

Arakadia2 votes

That doesn't make it right. Something is wrong, that doesnt mean deal with it, it means try and fix it. People like the current splash for one of Fiora's skins, they spoke, and rito listened.

Hayaishi21 votes

{quoted}

That doesn't make it right. Something is wrong, that doesnt mean deal with it, it means try and fix it. People like the current splash for one of Fiora's skins, they spoke, and rito listened.

And they did listen because mages are getting help in a month or so.

5050BS5 votes

CURRENTLY AP sucks vs AD

The mana costs for a mage combo vs a AD combo is huge. AD combos have lower CDs then mages and yet do the same or more damage.

AD have more sustain then Mages too.

Lets hope the Mage Rework will give us better items like the ADs got.

Edge of Daybreak4 votes

Ah the good ol list weaknesses of one vs strengths of another for upvotes with no actual interest in discussion. The Gameplay bread and butter.

Arakadia1 votes

I like the list you didn't put any effort in. I literally asked for any advantages AP had over AD. The only one stated is that AP usually has more utility. Thats 1-like 8 or so? Don't complain if you dont have anything better, but complaining is more really the Gameplay Boards bread and butter.

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

You put 0 effort into your list at all. All you did was list the strengths of one and only the weaknesses of another. To call that effort you are either ignorant or pretending to be.

Here is your list reversed.

Ap

have more range

More utility

Stronger early game abilities

Less reliant on items

Better AOE skills

Can CC and kill without retaliation

Easy waveclear

They have items that provide defense and offense.

AD

Reliant on items

Draw aggro in lane when they auto attack

Some are melee range

Less reliable poke

Armor is easier to build

Little CC

See a problem here? This took me about a minute to type and no effort but hey it's a list. It's as terrble as the one you posted with the same bad logic behind it.

It's easy to list obvious strengths and weaknesses. AKA your thread. The only way these things arent obvious is A. A strong bronze level knowledge of the game or B. Upvote farming.

Arakadia1 votes

You put 0 effort into your list at all.

I'm sorry, I didn't see you create any list at all untill now, just complain.

have more range

Not necesarilly, your just thinking of lux and xerath. Champions like Kog, Lucian, etc. are quite high ranged and many mages are very similar in range to adc's who have access to Rapid Fire.

More utility

One of the few pros

Stronger early game abilities

This is purely opinion, and I don't see how Lucian's Q, the ability you max on him, which scales better and has a stronger base, is any stronger then Zigg's non targeted Q which scales less and has a lower base.

Less reliant on items

Same thing, purely opinion. I'm pretty sure myself however that AP are more reliant on Items, especially ones that have low base damages.

Better AOE skills

But AoE skills are bound to hurt less as otherwise they would be broken. Notice how WoTA heals 1/3 for AoE spells?

Can CC and kill without retaliation

Many ADC's can do the same. Many mages cannot.

Easy waveclear

For one wave. Then they have cooldowns that prevent further splitting. Also many mages aren't AoE and those that can be DoT.

They have items that provide defense and offense.

Oh boy... They have some small health tacked on so they don't die when their breathed on. Theres only one AP item on SR that gives armor, and its active (Which unlike Sturaks cannot be activated while CC"d) makes you stand still so the enemy can catch up, get their cooldowns, and reposition. Theirs only one AP item that gives MR, which has no active or passive near as strong as Maw, Mercurial, or Sturaks. While ADC's can abuse theirMaw, Sturaks, Mercurial, etc., on mage items every stat counts. ADC's are supposed to be so squishy and easily killed early on, that they need a support with them. Yet their tankier then mages often.

Reliant on items

Except their items are better, and their less reliant then Mages.

Draw aggro in lane when they auto attack

As do mages.

Some are melee range

As are mages. And still, AD melee's are tankier with CC and mobility to make up for it. Irelia, Yasuo, Xin, etc.

Less reliable poke

In what world is consistant, resourcless, undodgable poke less reliable?

Armor is easier to build

Is it? It sounds like just another opinion. Thats quite a few of your points that are just opinions. Plus we have cheaper and more health/armor items for adc's. Mage's pen items are more expensive and less effective. We also have quite a few champions like Vayne, Kog' Maw, and Corki who deal mixed/tank shred/true damage.

Little CC

Its not like ADC's have a whole champion called a support to peel for them. Nor do they have their own CC and mobility such as Vayne E and Q, Lucian W and E, Corki Passive and E and Ult, MF strut and W, etc. If Riot were to give them much more CC, they would be insanely broken.

See a problem here? This took me about a minute to type and no effort but hey it's a list. It's as terrble as the one you posted with the same bad logic behind it.

Pretty much you posted a short list with bad points and compared it to mine. While I did not spend half an hour on this post, It has worthy points you don't want to think about. This sentence was basically just an insult.

It's easy to list obvious strengths and weaknesses. AKA your thread. The only way these things arent obvious is A. A strong bronze level knowledge of the game or B. Upvote farming.

Another arrogant, insult sentence. Bronze does not = unintelligible in game. And while during preseason I was silver III, I have enough knowledge of the game to know that AD > AP.

P.S Insults do not make you look smarter or make you right.

Quepha4 votes

Deals damage in a burst which can cause the target to die before sustained damage even matters.

WoonStruck3 votes

{quoted}

Deals damage in a burst which can cause the target to die before sustained damage even matters.

AD assassins.

Point null and void.

Utility would have been a better argument, yo.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

AD assassins.

Point null and void.

Utility would have been a better argument, yo.

AD assassins also have no special bonuses to taking down towers since they never build attack speed.

If we're speaking in general terms then you don't get to include AD assassins who are very atypical users of the AD stat. If we're speaking in specific terms then you don't get to act like every AD champion has the burst of Zed, the tower taking prowess of Tristana, the powerful defensive ultimate of Tryndamere, the inherent tankiness of Graves, and the mobility of Ezreal while pretending that AP champions don't have sustained damage dealers like Kayle, Ryze, and Cassiopeia; Zhonya's as possibly the most powerful defensive cooldown on an item in the game; resourceless AP champions like Rumble; and champions with ridiculous cc and utility like Morgana, Orianna, and Lulu.

Fun fact: Rabadon's makes AP a more cost efficient stat than AD if your goal is to deal damage to a tower, making AP/AS the most optimal tower shredding build in the game.

WarlockLaw3 votes

For the ap dps champions you listed 2 of them are bad right now (Ryze/Cass) and the third builds Sated and Guinsoo and not ap so she doesn't count anymore than Xin Zhao.

As for Zhonyas being the best defensive cooldown on the game, it isn't anymore. With the amount of offensive stats that Maw and Steraks give you both of those are individually better than Zhonyas and purely as an active QSS has always been on par with Zhonyas. With Sterak having a 45 second cd and the other 3 having a 90 second cd and Zhonyas being the second most expensive of the 4 while the most expensive option gives lifesteal I personally hold that Zhonyas is currently the worst defensive cooldown option for damage oriented champions.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

For the ap dps champions you listed 2 of them are bad right now (Ryze/Cass) and the third builds Sated and Guinsoo and not ap so she doesn't count anymore than Xin Zhao.

As for Zhonyas being the best defensive cooldown on the game, it isn't anymore. With the amount of offensive stats that Maw and Steraks give you both of those are individually better than Zhonyas and purely as an active QSS has always been on par with Zhonyas. With Sterak having a 45 second cd and the other 3 having a 90 second cd and Zhonyas being the second most expensive of the 4 while the most expensive option gives lifesteal I personally hold that Zhonyas is currently the worst defensive cooldown option for damage oriented champions.

You're complaining about specific balance issues when the basis of this thread is on the general philosophy of AP vs. AD.

Zhonya's may not be the best item right now but it is still the most powerful active. It just so happens that Riot finally priced it appropriately.

Over 60% of Kayle's damage is magical, she is an AP champion.

Cass and Ryze are not in bad states right now. Ryze's winrate has returned to what it was before his last big change and Cass's winrate is appropriate for such a high input champ and it's obvious that she can succeed in the right hands. Furthermore, there are other AP sustained damage champions in the game. Aurelion Sol is definitely a sustained damage champ over burst and he appears to be very strong on release.

WarlockLaw2 votes

If you think the basis of this thread is not rooted in current issues of the meta you are mistaken. All of us who have been complaining since the marksman update that ad itemization is significantly better than ap itemization, and by extension ad is better than ap, are not saying that ad has always been better than ap. The general philosophy is a different discussion that OP did not bring up.

Just because Kayle does 60% + magic damage doesn't make her ap. If that were the case then every sated champion as well as Corki would be ap. Magic damage =/= ap just like physical damage =/= ad. The items you build determine what type of champion you are and right now Kayle is hybrid.

Ryze does have a decent, although low, winrate, but his play rate is very low signifying that people in general consider him to be bad. However he doesn't have a hyper-scaling power curve like his kit and history would suggest. Imo he needs another rework on the same scale as his last one to make him good without risking the permanent root nonsense. As for Cass, all of her stats are bad except for damage and kills. Bad win rate, bad play rate, bad average deaths. Check champion.gg if you don't believe me but she is bad right now.

As for Aurelion Sol I believe he was given way too much burst on release and needs that taken away in exchange for some QoL changes. The base damage of his level 6 ult is higher than Annie's. He seems strong on release because he has both sustained damage and burst, something no champ should have.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

As for Cass, all of her stats are bad except for damage and kills. Bad win rate, bad play rate, bad average deaths. Check champion.gg if you don't believe me but she is bad right now.

47% winrate for such a high input champ is not bad, she saw some play in the LCS where she carried games. But she is looking at heavy changes in the mage update. Ryze is also looking forward to a rework soon as are some changes to AP items in the mage update. It seems silly to cry about specific problems when Riot is currently looking very closely at everything you're talking about.

WarlockLaw1 votes

I consider winrates of 48%-52% to be good. Anything outside of that becomes either too high or too low imo. So a 47% winrate to me is low, regardless of 'high input' or not. Every time I've seen her picked in the LCS it's in a comp built to enable her.

As for them looking into these complaints with the mage update, it's nice that they are looking into it, but I'm still disgruntled that they are okay with leaving mages and ap itemization in a poorer spot than the rest of the game about 6 months, yet they would never think of doing it to adcs/ad itemization. I want the update, or at least some item changes leading up to it.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I consider winrates of 48%-52% to be good. Anything outside of that becomes either too high or too low imo. So a 47% winrate to me is low, regardless of 'high input' or not. Every time I've seen her picked in the LCS it's in a comp built to enable her.

As for them looking into these complaints with the mage update, it's nice that they are looking into it, but I'm still disgruntled that they are okay with leaving mages and ap itemization in a poorer spot than the rest of the game about 6 months, yet they would never think of doing it to adcs/ad itemization. I want the update, or at least some item changes leading up to it.

Every comp is built to enable every champ picked in that comp, that's how a game about teamplay works. Lee Sin has a winrate outside of your arbitrary scale and he's still a strong pick so it seems like you just have a bad scale.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Last I checked Lee Sin was not one of the highly contested junglers and has not been since Runglaive or Runic Echoes.

As for the comp, I mean specifically 4 people enable exactly one person and the comp falls apart if that one person dies. Every time I've seen Cass picked in competitive the games are decided solo based on how Cass performs and whether or not the enemy team kills her at the start of fights, or even fight when she is present. Typically competitive comps are more along the lines of 'poke comp' or 'wombo comp' or 'siege comp.' Cass is specifically a '4 protect 1 comp' and that's when she excel, but she is not currently a contested pick.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Last I checked Lee Sin was not one of the highly contested junglers and has not been since Runglaive or Runic Echoes.

As for the comp, I mean specifically 4 people enable exactly one person and the comp falls apart if that one person dies. Every time I've seen Cass picked in competitive the games are decided solo based on how Cass performs and whether or not the enemy team kills her at the start of fights, or even fight when she is present. Typically competitive comps are more along the lines of 'poke comp' or 'wombo comp' or 'siege comp.' Cass is specifically a '4 protect 1 comp' and that's when she excel, but she is not currently a contested pick.

Lee isn't pick or ban but he is a common pick. Cassiopeia isn't contested but she's viable. The goal for balance is definitely not a pick/ban champ, that's obviously overpowered.

Arakadia2 votes

Yet we have mf and lucian who burst just as well.

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

No, they really don't.

Arakadia2 votes

Maybe they can't burst just as well, but you cannot say someone like Lucian is not bursty. As not all ADC's are bursty, not all mages are bursty. Rumble, Galio, Swain, Vlad, Karthus, Cass, Morde, Aurelion Sol, Liss, etc.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe they can't burst just as well, but you cannot say someone like Lucian is not bursty. As not all ADC's are bursty, not all mages are bursty. Rumble, Galio, Swain, Vlad, Karthus, Cass, Morde, Aurelion Sol, Liss, etc.

Not all AP champs are bad at taking towers (Diana or any Lichbane user), have mana costs (Rumble), depend on dodge-able skillshots (Annie), or have weak sustained damage while their spells are on cooldown (Teemo, Aurelion Sol)

So I guess the OP's list is pretty much worthless.

3TWarrior2 votes

at the moment, I would have to say range, and team damage, but as it is, mage range hardly covers it any more unless the mage can harrass completely free of being attacked back(which is also very bad)

Taric the Gay2 votes

AP has better wave clear in my eyes. They do better AOE damage with less effort. Most AD champs need 2 abilities to wave clear quickly. See Jayce, Sivir, Tristana, Gangplank and Zed. AP champions can do it in 1 ability usually. Lux, Morgana, Malzahar, Viktor, Lissandra, Xerath, Rumble and Vladimir can wave clear using one ability and do it more efficiently. I think the only AD exceptions to this rule are Garen, Darius, Rek'sai and Varus.

http://www.auplod.com/u/ulaopd785ed.png

J E B A ł T E D1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Taric the Gay,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bObORWa3,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-04-05T10:54:41.164+0000)

AP has better wave clear in my eyes. They do better AOE damage with less effort. Most AD champs need 2 abilities to wave clear quickly. See Jayce, Sivir, Tristana, Gangplank and Zed. AP champions can do it in 1 ability usually. Lux, Morgana, Malzahar, Viktor, Lissandra, Xerath, Rumble and Vladimir can wave clear using one ability and do it more efficiently. I think the only AD exceptions to this rule are Garen, Darius, Rek'sai and Varus.

http://www.auplod.com/u/ulaopd785ed.png

Darius Draven Ezreal Gangplank Garen Gnar Graves Lucian MasterYi Pantheon Renekton Riven Sivir Tryndamere wot was that m8?

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Darius Draven Ezreal Gangplank Garen Gnar Graves Lucian MasterYi Pantheon Renekton Riven Sivir Tryndamere wot was that m8?

Many of those champions have very bad waveclear. For instance, that is a very explicit weakness of Ezreal.

Thund3r Ang3l1 votes

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