Idea for Thornmail

Fefnil··2 votes·531 views

So, we all know the problem that this item has. It's a bad design because it simply does damage, so if it's strong, then it's oppressive. Now, here is my idea, how about, INSTEAD of returning damage:

  • Inflicts a debuff on the attacker that reduces his damage by 1%. The debuff last 5 seconds and can be stacked up to 15 times.

Here is the idea: because Randuin got specialized in the anti-crit item, we still lack a definitive anti-autoattacker item. The point of this item is to give it utility to the entire team. And the system of the stacks is there to make it useful only against high attack speed champions. Obviously numbers can be changed. Opinions?

5 Comments

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

God no. Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Ninja Tabi, and Randuins would make any auto attack crit champion do no damage to them with no way to counter it. Tryndamere, Yasuo, and all ADCs except like, maybe Kog'maw or Corki would be thrown into the trash can.

67chrome1 votes

Opinions?

15% reduced damage isn't particularly high for requiring 15 auto-attacks to build up to.

15 stacks for optimal usage is also way to many stacks: Black Cleaver seems slow with 6, most stacking mechanics in LoL are in the 3rd hit zone.

Generally speaking I'd say it takes ~20 auto-attacks as a marksman like Jinx to down anyone that isn't Malphite or Rammus as well: making 15 AA's pretty "meh".

With 15 AA's you'd be limiting Thornmail to ultra-late game, as for that passive to really matter at all you'd need to be able to survive a considerable amount of punishment (15 AA's worth). In which case the item would likely meet a fate where it's so late-game everyone forgets it's there. Realistically you're only going to finish 3 major items and boots by the time a game ends as well.

Also: if the item is called Thornmail it should use thorns/spikes/barbs/etc. in some fashion, otherwise it's name doesn't make sense in regards to it's function.


Personally I'd like Thornmail to maintain it's niche of making life-steal useless against it while doing something offensive within a tanky build.

Maybe change it's passive to simply reduce life-steal/spell-vamp effects to 0% against it, along with giving it an AoE active similar to Tiamat/Hydra that scales with armor, sends spikes outwards, and gains a reduced CD every time the bearer of thornmail takes damage.

Fefnil1 votes

As I said, numbers can be changed. We could make less stacks, or make it so that ranged attacks produce 2 stacks. We could also make the power scale with bonus armor, to maintain the current sinergy. I think that the spike thematics still remain, you can imagine spikes that damage your equipment, so it deals less damage. Also, there is another thing we could do: make it a true tank item, changing the effect so that the attacker deals reduced damage to everyone except the one with thornmail. So it doesn't make a tank immortal, but makes targeting him first a bad thing to do, as it should be.

67chrome1 votes

As I said, numbers can be changed.

Considering it's a worse passive than item 3047 in most regards and worse than Urgot's passive, I'm not sure you'd make Thornmail really stand out with a stacking %Damage Reduction boost.

As-is it's also worth noting that item 3110 essentially reduces all auto-attack DPS by 15% right away to everyone nearby, where if Thornmail were to work on a stacking debuff system it would also target auto-attacks/sustained DPS more than anything else, causing both Thornmail and Frozen Heart to occupy essentially the same exact niche: making 1 the best and the other a strictly worse version.

We could make less stacks, or make it so that ranged attacks produce 2 stacks.

Ranged assaults producing double stacks is interesting, given defensive items like item 3068 have pretty significant anti-melee properties and Thornmail as-is punishes melee champions a lot harder, as it's more difficult to switch focus when the area your AA range lets you smack things in is a tiny fraction of the area ranged attacks can smack something in. That idea is probably worth perusing.

We could also make the power scale with bonus armor, to maintain the current sinergy.

%Damage reductions innatly scale with armor as-is. Causing %Damage reductions to scale more with armor is like scaling attack speed from an item based on AD. %Damage reductions and armor work very well together.

I think that the spike thematics still remain, you can imagine spikes that damage your equipment, so it deals less damage.

How are you damaging your opponent if you're dealing no damage?

In LoL, Fiora can also obliterate someone with a ruler, Lee Sin can OHKO someone while wearing boxing gloves, and Mundo can kill someone with a briefcase. Spikes damaging things without damaging things makes no sense.

Also, there is another thing we could do: make it a true tank item, changing the effect so that the attacker deals reduced damage to everyone except the one with thornmail.

Interesting idea. While aura's are usually a lot of passive power that's difficult to feel, such a dymanic to an aura effect could break that mold and offer a more interactive and interesting item.

That said: if the item is offering a ton of defensive stats regardless, you're not creating much of a dynamic with focus by the aura not effecting the tank. In practice it's still the same general deal as item 3110 or item 3190 . The guy wearing it is tanky, his buddies have a little more durability as well.

So it doesn't make a tank immortal, but makes targeting him first a bad thing to do, as it should be.

Generally speaking targeting a tank first is a bad idea regardless of the situation.

Also: generally speaking you want your opponents to make that bad decision and feel like they must focus you down, not the other way around. As a tank in LoL, you're job is usually managing the aggro in the real-world sense and actually convince your opponents to focus you: usually from being really disruptive, other times from being so amazing at zonning opponents they really have no choice.

The tanky targets that don't want to get focused are mostly Fighters, as they use defense in a way much closer to how assassins use mobility or marksman use range: as a means to survive long enough to kill things, and not getting hit helps them survive longer. In this sense: "Don't focus me" is something more helpful to champions like: Fiora Jax Irelia Darius Garen Nasus that are largely forced to build defense to survive with how their kits operate, but still want to crush their opponents.

Thornmail also currently fullfills the "get off me bro" dynamic, which is likely why Jax has a decent track-record of purchasing Thornmail in competitive play.

Fefnil1 votes

{quoted}

Considering it's a worse passive than item 3047 in most regards and worse than Urgot's passive, I'm not sure you'd make Thornmail really stand out with a stacking %Damage Reduction boost.

As-is it's also worth noting that item 3110 essentially reduces all auto-attack DPS by 15% right away to everyone nearby, where if Thornmail were to work on a stacking debuff system it would also target auto-attacks/sustained DPS more than anything else, causing both Thornmail and Frozen Heart to occupy essentially the same exact niche: making 1 the best and the other a strictly worse version.

Yes, Frozen Heart also directly reduces dps, the main difference is that it's an aura with short range, while Thornmail would be able to potentially debuff the entire team, despite of range. It will essentially make it the anti-ranged niche of the anti-autoattacker, so it doesn not overlap with frozen heart. Also, it would be an item that directly counters Devourer and Runaan's.

Ranged assaults producing double stacks is interesting, given defensive items like item 3068 have pretty significant anti-melee properties and Thornmail as-is punishes melee champions a lot harder, as it's more difficult to switch focus when the area your AA range lets you smack things in is a tiny fraction of the area ranged attacks can smack something in. That idea is probably worth perusing.

Yeah, exactly what I just said in response to the other point.

%Damage reductions innatly scale with armor as-is. Causing %Damage reductions to scale more with armor is like scaling attack speed from an item based on AD. %Damage reductions and armor work very well together.

Fair point. Maybe scale with level, then, because early game shouldn't be too strong.

How are you damaging your opponent if you're dealing no damage?

In LoL, Fiora can also obliterate someone with a ruler, Lee Sin can OHKO someone while wearing boxing gloves, and Mundo can kill someone with a briefcase. Spikes damaging things without damaging things makes no sense.

Well, the spikes damage the weapon, not you, that's what I meant. Your sword takes a dent that after 5 seconds... gets magically repaired...?

Interesting idea. While aura's are usually a lot of passive power that's difficult to feel, such a dymanic to an aura effect could break that mold and offer a more interactive and interesting item.

That said: if the item is offering a ton of defensive stats regardless, you're not creating much of a dynamic with focus by the aura not effecting the tank. In practice it's still the same general deal as item 3110 or item 3190 . The guy wearing it is tanky, his buddies have a little more durability as well.

No, it's not an aura: you attack the champ the thornmail, you get a debuff. For 5 seconds, your damage against the others is reduced, but against the first one it doesn't change.

Generally speaking targeting a tank first is a bad idea regardless of the situation.

Also: generally speaking you want your opponents to make that bad decision and feel like they must focus you down, not the other way around. As a tank in LoL, you're job is usually managing the aggro in the real-world sense and actually convince your opponents to focus you: usually from being really disruptive, other times from being so amazing at zonning opponents they really have no choice.

The tanky targets that don't want to get focused are mostly Fighters, as they use defense in a way much closer to how assassins use mobility or marksman use range: as a means to survive long enough to kill things, and not getting hit helps them survive longer. In this sense: "Don't focus me" is something more helpful to champions like: Fiora Jax Irelia Darius Garen Nasus that are largely forced to build defense to survive with how their kits operate, but still want to crush their opponents.

Thornmail also currently fullfills the "get off me bro" dynamic, which is likely why Jax has a decent track-record of purchasing Thornmail in competitive play.

Yes, but currently what often happens is that people just target the nearest enemy and melt him regardless. It's ok to be a tank shredder, but when you are well positioned. When the tank overextended the engage and is right over you while his team is a screen away it's ok to shred him. But in a teamfight you should get punished for focusing him first. That's what I want to address with this rework.

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