So I tried to follow Riot's advice and communicate with my team when picking an off-meta support.

Team Fat Amy·Mar 4, 2017·22 votes·1,600 views

iSnoopCat joined the lobby Martelous joined the lobby Team Fat Amy joined the lobby Wrath In NA joined the lobby Kakinang joined the lobby

Wrath In NA SLZ2: no ap team Wrath In NA SLZ2: love it Team Fat Amy: Do you guys mind if I play Teemo support? Pretty good map control late game and his AP shrooms do a lot of dmg Wrath In NA SLZ2 : pls dont do that Team Fat Amy: Ok. :(

I guess I'll just stick to the usual and spam-queue tanks until my eyeballs bleed.

41 Comments

Deep Terror NamiMar 4, 201720 votes

Tbh it'd be ok to use Teemo if you're actually fulfilling the duties of your role. Which, looking at your build from the last match, you did. Leaving your ADC to rot and counter jungling your own teammate when you queued as/were assigned Support is when it really causes problems.

Touch My BoxMar 4, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEVof8qy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-04T08:40:47.011+0000)

Tbh it'd be ok to use Teemo if you're actually fulfilling the duties of your role. Which, looking at your build from the last match, you did. Leaving your ADC to rot and counter jungling your own teammate when you queued as/were assigned Support is when it really causes problems.

Except he didn't really do that...

LauchmelderMar 4, 201713 votes

Except he did. Look at his goddamn VODs. Only a blind monkey couldn't see it.

SwainLaneWinGameMar 4, 20174 votes

Did he leave the adc/bot laner alone 2v1? Yes

Did he counter-jungle his teammate? No (and late game taking team jungle / lane cs is absolutely normal practice)

Did he counter-jungle the enemy team? Yes

Facts are funny, they always have a way of being true, regardless whether you believe them or not.

vOmvbrawfUMar 4, 20178 votes

Did he counter-jungle his teammate? No (and late game taking team jungle / lane cs is absolutely normal practice)

He took the first red and then took scuttle. Took other camps as well. Go ahead and put a yes there.

Protoform XMar 4, 20171 votes

I watched the video a few days ago, but didn't he take the first red while his jungler was taking the other team's red?

reaperteaserMar 4, 20174 votes

if your talking about takethedraw vs phreak video he got permision from lee sin to take the red buff while lee invaded the enemy red side. his adc was the most deffensive marksmen in the game so she was alright with laning alone. the problem occurs when he doesnt get the jungler or adc to agree to his plan and does it anyways

jaymc1130Mar 4, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toxic Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEVof8qy,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-03-04T09:23:36.940+0000)

Except he didn't really do that...

Oh make no mistake, Take the Draw absolutely does.

But that happens to be the CORRECT way to play his strategy. It's entirely dependent on the opposing team's bot lane not being very bright to create multiple level and income advantages for his team.

It's not going to be fun for the adc, but if they keep a level head and play towards the strength of the strategy it can, and clearly does, work.

The strategy itself has been around for years, it's just never been effective or efficient. It is this season because many systemic changes to the meta have resulted in junglers being overly powerful and ganking to snowball lanes the only truly effective and efficient meta strategy. Simultaneously the bot lane roles have become much less efficient since games end sooner because of the snowbally meta and adcs rarely have an opportunity to hit late game effectiveness.

This makes pouring more resources into denying and disrupting the opposing jg at all costs more effective than it's ever been in the past, and a viable strategy for the first time.

There is a difference between what he does and what a player like Trick2g does though, as Trick plays in an exclusively selfish and non team oriented style. Take the Draw actually plays a style that is dependent on him being a team player and assisting every player on the team and every part of the map. It's just that the way he goes about it is confusing to most of the player base.

hhaavviikkMar 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEVof8qy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-04T08:40:47.011+0000)

Tbh it'd be ok to use Teemo if you're actually fulfilling the duties of your role. Which, looking at your build from the last match, you did. Leaving your ADC to rot and counter jungling your own teammate when you queued as/were assigned Support is when it really causes problems.

that shouldn't be a problem though should it? no where in the rules does it state a ADC is to always have a support and the ONLY reason it seems like he ''abandons'' the ADC is because riot forced that spot on him as there is no counterjungling option

NymzoMar 4, 20176 votes

Teemo support is actually pretty strong

Especially against a Vayne

You can harass her easily if she tries to fight back, you blind her and her ult become useless.

Also, thanks to the changes of vision, they can't no longer buy a vision ward to counter you if you are in a bush. They will have to waste mana to try to find you.

Touch My BoxMar 4, 20175 votes

You can play whatever off meta pick you want, just don't beat Phreak and his bumchum team and you won't get banned.

Pretty fucking suspicious that the very last game Nunu played before his ban was vs a salty Rioter, especially since it went under manual review.

Legacy HydralphaMar 4, 20171 votes

Puns of damage.

BlueBilberryMar 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toxic Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEVof8qy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-03-04T09:24:27.399+0000)

You can play whatever off meta pick you want, just don't beat Phreak and his bumchum team and you won't get banned.

Pretty fucking suspicious that the very last game Nunu played before his ban was vs a salty Rioter, especially since it went under manual review.

Was that a Disco Nunu reference? :)

Touch My BoxMar 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Was that a Disco Nunu reference? :)

No, the whole controversy was brought up again because "Take the Draw", a Diamond Nunu OTP was banned recently for playing support Nunu with smite. He would sit in the lane and roam, just as most supports do, but instead of just roaming to gank, he would roam and counterjungle the enemy Jungler.

He won more games than he lost with it (in high elo no less), he showed Riot the full data including wards placed, gold earned/denied and outcomes of his matches, but they continued to ban him for "Refusing to communicate" and apparently "Stealing other peoples roles".

It is just incredibly suspicious that a manual audit was conducted on his account after he and his team demolishes Riot Phreak.

vOmvbrawfUMar 4, 20175 votes

[deleted]

AhristocatsMar 4, 20177 votes

Riot said that no matter what you pick you should talk to your team and then the community on this board said that if you want to play an off meta champ you should have the consent of your team which is bs

vOmvbrawfUMar 4, 20172 votes

Nah, there is a difference between getting support and not supporting, and going an off-meta champ.

AhristocatsMar 4, 20174 votes

there isn't a difference, as much as you want to play something uncomon you should communicate to your team or didn't you read the reply i got from riot about playing adc darius?

The Last BalladMar 4, 20171 votes

Playing adc Darius is significantly different from Teemo support, as while the former does not do a good job of falling into any of the jobs of the role (dealing sustained damage(gets kited easily), takes tower's quickly(good for a top laner, but compared to an adc it is terrible), scales greatly into the late game(the only one where he succeeds at, but even then it isn't in the way adc's do)) where as Teemo support fulfills between 1 and 3 of the supports 3 jobs, depending on the composition of the team(empowering their team(if you have a cassiopea, as you can perma poison people for her to e), creating a buffer(physical or psychological) in which your team may act in with relative safety(shrooms, auto poke, and q blind), and enables their team to make picks and plays by capitalizing on their enemies mistakes(shrooms can function as this depending if you have someone who can either pick off those left nearly dead by them, or are able to use the information provided to make a pick themselves)

A better comparison would be either Ziggs bot, or Azir bot as they fulfill the jobs, but in a vastly different way than regular adc's do.

Also unless in the depths of bronze, Darius would be poked out of lane by the majority of supports and adc's.

Also, unlike most of the other roles, the qualifications for support are very lax. As long as you can act like a support, there is a chance you can support with it. Not so with Jungle or adc as they have requirements made by their opposition.

RabblerouserMar 4, 20173 votes

Granted you're right on that one point that "not going to support, gonna counterJG" is different from "I'm gonna pick and off-meta support that supports in a different way (Teemo blind messing with autos of Vayne/Draven/MF/etc)"...

... but that personal attack on him was super uncalled for.

vOmvbrawfUMar 4, 20171 votes

No, it wasn't.

NekoniClawsMar 4, 20173 votes

What!? Teemo support is the best! I woulda' said 'Yes Please!'

Especially with Jhin

It's not a problem what you pick as long as you're still enabling your ADC to fulfil their role too. No-one else asks your permission for their picks.

Quil EvrythingMar 4, 20172 votes

teemo is a horrible support. off meta, fine. but if you want non-tank, play someone with HARD CC.

play lb support or something. that's fun

SwainLaneWinGameMar 4, 20174 votes

Or... he could play teemo support.... because it's fun for him.

(P.S. I got rank 7 mastery on teemo just from teemo support, and climbed all of silver with it, so no he's not 'terrible').

Quil EvrythingMar 4, 20171 votes

no, he IS "terrible", as a support.

he's useful as a "dual laner", in the same way that playing MF in the "support" rule is useful. but MF is not a support and neither is teemo. PS: "fun for him" doesnt mean fun for others. if he wants to play screwy things, he shouldnt complain when other people dont want to go along with it.

BlueBilberryMar 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEVof8qy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-04T15:32:31.224+0000)

teemo is a horrible support. off meta, fine. but if you want non-tank, play someone with HARD CC.

play lb support or something. that's fun

Leblanc support is fun - but then you have to hope that she is (a) not banned and (b) not taken by midlane. For the oddballs, Ahri support is where it's at. (My usual recs of Elise and Malz are being hurt by the fact that the darned Korean master+ players are making them work. ;) )

Quil EvrythingMar 5, 20171 votes

meh. lb isnt much of a thing any more.

being a good ahri support is hard. lb on the other hand, has TWO "cant miss" spells. and if you W in, you either cant miss chain, or you get their flash. So lb would be better support

BlueBilberryMar 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEVof8qy,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2017-03-05T19:50:47.114+0000)

meh. lb isnt much of a thing any more.

being a good ahri support is hard. lb on the other hand, has TWO "cant miss" spells. and if you W in, you either cant miss chain, or you get their flash. So lb would be better support

I've done both...

Ahri support is largely skillshot based (naturally) - but it's not that hard (no worse than landing a Thresh hook, let's say). The Lb challenge lies in not stealing feed from your adc. Yes, the W is a nice all-in - but truth be told, you really have to rely on the "E" chain to pull off an Lb as support (i.e., to avoid annoying the heck out of your adc). And that does leave you open to poke as you try to lock down your target.

Quil EvrythingMar 6, 20171 votes

True.... OR... you could just max Q first, and annoy the $#@$@ out of the enemy laners. Only use W to quickly position for free Q+auto, and then dash back :D

then once you have built enough gold, get frost queens claim.. and you'll never miss E when you need to hit it :)

BlueBilberryMar 4, 20172 votes

It really depends when one talks about an off-meta pick in a role. Speaking as a support main, who is willing to experiment, it seems that there is the off-meta pick and off-off-meta pick.

For example, Galio support is an example of the first type (not a popular champ for support but can do the support role pretty darned well - shield, ccs and movement speed boosts for the adc). Even Heim, Veigar, Elise and Ahri can fit in this grouping. (All of these have been used as support in diamond+ play in the last year effectively.)

Then there is Teemo support as an example of the second type. Not only is he not meta, but he has risks of ks and/or minion steal with little to no trade off in exchange for the weak protection for the adc (i.e., little to no: shields, enemy slows, enemy ccs). Granted, the effects of the Q and E are nice but they tend to be a bit more skill shot related and not directly benefiting the adc. And let's not forget that the shrooms tend to pinch minions away from the carry.

Plus, I hate to say it but usually when I get another position on the Rift, and I see a Teemo support on my team, I worry. I rarely see support items used, little to no warding (often due to a lack of sightstone itemization) and little to no utility items.

Despite this, I have no problem with a Teemo player in the support role - but if you do play him, then please play him as an actual support. And please not in my ranked games. :)

Team Fat AmyMar 5, 20171 votes

Not sure if I'd agree with you, I'm afraid. To me, a "meta" is defined by popularity, or champions that would be considered over-tuned (whether directly as a result of their kit or an item they would use as a core item arguably being too strong). Just because you play a champion that doesn't benefit from either of the above scenarios, does NOT mean they cannot be competitive at any given role.

Every champion has risks of ks or minion kill; but I'm not entirely sure why you base kill-power as an argument against a champion being played as support. I would argue that Teemo is great bot-lane due to his blind, esp. vs. ADC's who have power built into AA empowerment (such as Draven & Vayne, etc). Also, where do you think shrooms are being placed? Any Teemo who puts shrooms in a middle of a lane are doing it wrong, in my opinion. When used properly, teemo shrooms can be used for some pretty amazing map & objective control. The meta currently favors more ranged ADCs (Varus, etc) so I could understand an argument such as this vs champion like Teemo, but not any of the reasons you noted.

I don't have advice for your own perception of certain champions. It sucks that there is a certain stigma in League that erects when player's choose champions in a given role, and that shouldn't be a dictator as to how the game will go. Especially if the support is trying to communicate to the team and is comfortable with their pick.

To me, supporting is a state-of-mind, a build of items, a tool of utility, and is a style of play that allows for decision making, anticipation, prediction and ward-control to shine. Are certain champions better vs. certain picks? Yes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to, or flamed, for playing a champion that you (or anyone else) deems as "off-off-meta".

Note: this post does not justify the behavior of any individual who purposely trolls, plays irresponsibly or cripples their teammates because of their unfavorable playstyle. If you have a support who buys a sighstone, contributes to the teams utility and continues to play their best while playing an "off-meta" champion, don't complain and tilt the team with your stigmatized self-doubt. Maybe try adjusting your frame of view, magical things may happen.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

rtbf221651412Mar 5, 20172 votes

I stated Teemo support worked quite a few months ago. Here is why:

Teemo's E prices the gold passive for . He also gets more vision from this. This helps prevents ganks.
The best defense against an ADC is a blind. ADC goes bot lane. Kind of not hard to figure out why this is good. His Q does blind. You want to max this first.
He can gank IN LANE. I find myself in unorthodox spots in lane, not even in bushes, when I camo. Blind out of camo and they will run.
Building adds even more vision. Now you have 5 things of vision.
Teemo shrooms add even more vision and prevent jungle and other lanes from going to your lane easily because of the slow. Also, 45% CDR on Teemo is nothing to laugh at. This isn't aram where your shrooms are predictable. You will force a competent enemy team to grab
helps ADC and Teemo. It gives teemo CDR. It also gives Teemo crit for his basics (minor for obvious reasons) and AP in bonus and charging. Since Teemo basics a lot, although AP, he still benefits from the critical boost.
In a meta where jungle ganks a lot, Teemo isn't as bad as people think he is as support. He is defensive and aggressive.
Since he can work as a support, IDGAF about what my team says. (Still go Soraka though if they knew I was going Teemo.) I select him right when it is my turn and not before. I don't need Riot telling me he doesn't work when it's been proven to work with ADC non trolls. Riot doesn't seem to understand people ban what they don't understand.

Dominick DestineMar 4, 20171 votes

I played Rammus support recently, team praised me.

Friend of mine named Ariel the Cruel plays Yorick support, he is praised too.

Maybe you are just shit.

BlueBilberryMar 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEVof8qy,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-04T16:31:21.580+0000)

I played Rammus support recently, team praised me.

Friend of mine named Ariel the Cruel plays Yorick support, he is praised too.

Maybe you are just shit.

I can see the Rammus support as working but that Yorick support sounds quite interesting. (Surely, it would start carrying lane pushing at level 6.)

FakeGravityMar 4, 20171 votes

communication is important but chat is often a placebo that offer nothing but distress

i had a game playing malzahar with draven, against leona jhin draven proceed to play agressively like all dravens do, die to jhin leona while mundo was in the way and i hardly manage to flash away. return to lane, continue to play agressive, see mundo on a ward i place, i ping danger and fall back, draven ignore it and die again, then proceed to stay at base and do nothing like a baby while i farm bot and mute all chat, eventually he stop the tantrum realizing he was mute probably and i didnt give a funk, just try to make the right calls and play the game, draven return to the game and play safe until the game was won no chat involved

NastyMcOutplayMar 5, 20171 votes

tanks arent meta

Whalord1Mar 5, 20171 votes

Had a ADC on my team who refused to play with a support Veigar . In the actual game, ADC went into middle lane and started stealing CS from mid lamer for 2-3 minutes. IDW why they were so toxic about it.

Baby GhoulMar 5, 20171 votes

I don't really like Teemo anything right now, so I understand the feeling, especially when I'm in promos, but at the end of the day you shouldn't be forced to pick anything you're not comfortable playing. It is better to play something you're good with.

Experience > Meta any day of the week. I'm a Soraka main, and while she's far from unviable, the meta has not been kind to her.

The Lethality and item 3814 meta has caused many supports to pick high AP damage supports. Zyra Annie Malzahar they build item 2301 and get straight to building AP like a mid laner.

There's a reason for that. Protecting your carry is so difficult in this meta, and many are finding it easier to just out damage the enemy team.

That puts me, a Soraka main, in an awkward position bot lane. Luckily I was used to seeing these kinds of supports from last season, but this season it seems like they're in almost every game. If it's not one of them, then it's a Thresh trying to flesh out a team and missing every single hook. I'm climbing just fine with a positive KDA, but man is it a miserable experience.

Basically I don't think anyone should be telling you not to play Teemo support. On the other hand you need to take responsibility and realize when your pick hurts the team and make an effort to adjust in your next game. I don't think a lot of off-meta supports understand that. I don't think a lot of Teemo players in general realize that. You do need to own when you're a contributing factor to why your team lost.

BlueBilberryMar 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baby Ghoul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEVof8qy,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-03-05T08:44:26.312+0000)

<snips for brevity!> Experience > Meta any day of the week. I'm a Soraka main, and while she's far from unviable, the meta has not been kind to her.

The Lethality and meta has caused many supports to pick high AP damage supports. they build and get straight to building AP like a mid laner.

There's a reason for that. Protecting your carry is so difficult in this meta, and many are finding it easier to just out damage the enemy team.

That puts me, a Soraka main, in an awkward position bot lane. Luckily I was used to seeing these kinds of supports from last season, but this season it seems like they're in almost every game. If it's not one of them, then it's a Thresh trying to flesh out a team and missing every single hook. I'm climbing just fine with a positive KDA, but man is it a miserable experience.

Sympathetic as a Sona main (which as the other main healer support seems to be doing somewhat ok at Plat and lower atm). But I should point out that Sora did have a moment or two of being god-tier for a couple of month recently. But I do hear what you are saying about things sucking atm. (It's not a fluke that when I have to trot out my squishy heal supports, I am grabbing Recovery, Siegemaster, Runic Armor and Perseverence and am carrying more armor than I used to.)

Personally, I think the kill lane mentality will die out with the tank reworks and a month or two later when Rito realizes that lethality was a terrible experiment and it's going to be hard to make the tanks work with Lethality in its current state. (Reading the dev blogs and posts, I would suggest that there are one or two devs who are starting to question whether the shift from a flat armor pen to a scaling armor pen was worth it in terms of balancing issues.)