whhhhy was thorn mail nerfed?

Captainn Ginyu·Apr 12, 2017·3 votes·970 views

is it building into something now? or are we just making it insanely worthless now?

26 Comments

Captainn GinyuApr 12, 20173 votes

Ah but did they really need to nerf the damage it reflected? kinda bad as is

LostFr0stApr 12, 20174 votes

Yes, they did. It's a component item now, not a full item.

FantasySniperApr 12, 20173 votes

The problem is that the damage reflect disappears when its upgraded.

meowwow7Apr 12, 20171 votes

actually no it doesn't in fact it does 30% on crits instead of 15%

FantasySniperApr 12, 20171 votes

Thornmail: Unique passive magic damage reflect lowered from 25% to 15%.

Randuin's Omen: Unique Passive - Thorns: When basic attacked, deal magic damage to the attacker equal to 15% bonus Armor, doubled for critical strikes.

It went from a straight damage reflect to armor-dependent values.

meowwow7Apr 12, 20171 votes

it was armor dependent values before the change though

KilanostApr 13, 20172 votes

No it was a mix of reflected damage and percent armor before the change. Now its just percent armor which is garbage.

LostFr0stApr 12, 20171 votes

I think what they did was fine. A lot of people really wanted to buy thornmail, but its price and combine cost in comparison to item 3143 / item 3742 <--- (This last one especially) just wasn't worth. Especially once the health in those two items was taken into consideration.

Making it into a component item of Randuin's; toning its effect and cutting its cost gives the best of both worlds. This way they can also separate item 3110 from item 3143 for attspd vs crit mitigation instead of having to be pulled between them.

OleandervineApr 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captainn Ginyu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bAocV2wp,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-04-12T04:02:38.026+0000)

Ah but did they really need to nerf the damage it reflected? kinda bad as is

It's "kinda bad as is" because it now cost 1200 gold to purchase, instead of like 2850, and now builds into Randuin's, which has the more powerful reflect passive.

KilanostApr 12, 20173 votes

They're getting rid of most of the passive damage tanks had in team fights.

SpoofghoulApr 12, 20175 votes

problem is what are tanks getting in return for that because they need some way to draw aggro this isn't a pve game where you can insult the enemies mother and magically gain aggro for the rest of the fight

the other issue is we arent getting any net EHP gain from any of the item changes

meanwhile ad is getting more damage and better zeal items

only thing we get is gargling stoned plate which makes us a little bit more tanky but mainly vs burst and we are already getting more mr to deal with ap burst so it's not really needed not that we needed any help vs ap burst in the first place

honestly like the new randuins omen it would be better with a 3 second 45% slow imo, though the item looks good so far and a nice rush buy vs ranged tops and the yasuo's and trynds in this game

but it be nice if we had additional armor and hp options to choose from

never really had any issue vs mages tbh except dps mages but we get a decent item for that now and that was all that we needed

But we are losing a 100 armor item 10 armor on randuins 15% attackspeed slow 15% return damage 10% armor damage compensated with a situational 5% increase we are losing 225 health and we gained 20 armor for it let that sink in

We got weaker vs AD overall this way

and they are getting buffs

LostFr0stApr 12, 20171 votes

Except ADs aren't getting buffs. They're getting re-balanced due to the tank changes just like they did to supports during the assassin update. They're also actively nerfing pen (finally) and it seems like they are trying to work away from the 3 second teamfights we have right now.

If ADs have less pen it opens them up to have a bit more AD which can be mitigated with the new armor items. Before, ADs would just evaporate that armor with pen builds and on-hit.

SpoofghoulApr 12, 20172 votes

not saying that isn't the case

except we have less health backing that armor up depending on what we as tank might buy about 225-600 less health

and we still get cleaver 24% on LW 35% on mastery 7%

so while the pen is less overall it still ignores over 50% of the armor we buy making health still a better buy except were losing health

meanwhile AD gets buffs

so while for tanks the durability evens out at best, at the cost of damage (so a net nerf)

for everyone else it doesn't so ad gets a net buff out of this

LostFr0stApr 12, 20171 votes

They probably reduced the overall health in the game so that it would make off-tank assassins harder to create while simultaneously indirectly nerfing BoRK and on-hits since there's less health floating around. They aren't done with the pen adjustments, they even stated it was just a "first step."

Less health is better for Mages too if people want to think that way. However, they're trying for more ways to mitigate damage instead of just stats. I think that direction is cool, others may not think so and that's fine.

SpoofghoulApr 12, 20171 votes

i think it's the right direction

However Riot's lack of insight and foresight on the matter baffles me sometimes

They have been building this game for years now and the ships been sinking for a while but only now that the water is up to their neck are they coming up with the idea to plug the holes while they could have done so years ago.

And while they are staring to head into the right direction they are making new big mistakes already for example

Nerfing tank damage while it isn't even that big of an issue. By doing so they remove a tanks way of drawing aggro but they leave them with no other ways of saying hey hello don't ignore me This isn't a pve game where you can insult a mobs mother and have it chase and aggro you (although sometimes it works) Riot hasn't quite grasped that concept quite yet which worries me.

They also seem unaware of the consequences of their item changes for the foreseeable future. for example The improved mr itemization likely resulting in tanks midlane untouchable by mages roaming botlane 24/7 with cc. The increased snowball from the AD buffs making this into a really bad situation once one botlane duo falls behind.

And like i explained the net buff to AD overal The net nerf to tanks The net nerf to mages

It might even result in adc's everywhere like the start of s6

Hard to tell what exactly will happen, but i can assure you that the dreaded ''bruiser builds'' won't die in fact i have already got a few of them lined up and ready to abuse.

There is literally nothing Riot can do to get rid of those builds, part of the reason for their existence is damage creep & mobility creep, like the increased AD for example, and the fact that ADC have such an easy time kiting with the help of their support so people start looking for ways to close that gap, not get oneshot by crits and still be able to go after that ADC.

The Root problem here is ADC power curve and Riot doesn't even know it or refuses to acknowledge it, they keep buffing both their lategame and their earlier powerspikes in crit items. People will find ways to deal with it and or abuse it, like the botlane clownfiesta's set back their carry get yours fed and win game from just that. or the tank ekko's etc etc. if they can't they either join the ADC club or they go play a different game instead. We saw this in s6 when adc's popped up top mid and jungle as well.

LostFr0stApr 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

i think it's the right direction

However Riot's lack of insight and foresight on the matter baffles me sometimes

They have been building this game for years now and the ships been sinking for a while but only now that the water is up to their neck are they coming up with the idea to plug the holes while they could have done so years ago.

Really... we gotta rehash that? zzzzzzzzzzzzzz They've been sequentially handling the classes and it happens that tanks didn't get first pick. Not a big deal; at least they're working on it. These things take time.

And while they are staring to head into the right direction they are making new big mistakes already for example

Nerfing tank damage while it isn't even that big of an issue.

It is though. When people can't differentiate the damage output of Tankyish Rek'sai from Maokai because of their items it's a problem. Bruisers should inherently deal more damage and die faster, tanks should have more cc and live longer. Right now that's not the case, it just depends on the build.

By doing so they remove a tanks way of drawing aggro but they leave them with no other ways of saying hey hello don't ignore me. This isn't a pve game where you can insult a mobs mother and have it chase and aggro you (although sometimes it works) Riot hasn't quite grasped that concept quite yet which worries me.

Tanks will be able to grab attention when they don't die in 1.5 seconds from item 3153 + item 3085 combo or whatever combo is in meta (armpen, crit etc. each did the same thing in their strong metas). They'll also be able to get more than one spell rotation into a teamfight hopefully.

They also seem unaware of the consequences of their item changes for the foreseeable future. for example The improved mr itemization likely resulting in tanks midlane untouchable by mages roaming botlane 24/7 with cc.

They increased MR due to the decreased health availability which was mitigating some of the magic damage before the changes. The effect should be net neutral to mages.

The increased snowball from the AD buffs making this into a really bad situation once one botlane duo falls behind.

I don't think that will be the case, the gold changes affect both teams. The effect should be neutral. The increase to AD in items was done due to the armor and damage mitigation increases.

And like i explained the net buff to AD overal The net nerf to tanks The net nerf to mages

It might even result in adcs everywhere like the start of s6

I very much doubt that.

Hard to tell what exactly will happen, but i can assure you that the dreaded "bruiser builds" won't die in fact i have already got a few of them lined up and ready to abuse.

I think the only readily abusable item is Gargoyle Stoneplate right now, and that's due to the radius at which it detects "nearby" enemy champs. There is likely a sweet spot where Fiora Vayne etc. won't want the item.

There is literally nothing Riot can do to get rid of those builds, part of the reason for their existence is damage creep + mobility creep, like the increased AD for example, and the fact that ADC have such an easy time kiting with the help of their support so people start looking for ways to close that gap, not get oneshot by crits and still be able to go after that ADC.

IDK, the changes to item 3742 's movespeed stacking seem to reduce ranged abuse cases a bit while making it better for melee champs. Hopefully we see more of that.

The Root problem here is ADC power curve and Riot doesn't even know it or refuses to acknowledge it, they keep buffing both their lategame and their earlier powerspikes in crit items. People will find ways to deal with it and or abuse it, like the botlane clownfiestas set back their carry get yours fed and win game from just that. or the tank ekkos etc etc. if they can't they either join the ADC club or they go play a different game instead. We saw this in s6 when adcs popped up top mid and jungle as well.

The fact that they're trying yet again directly negates "they refuse to acknowledge it." They nerfed armorpen, which means more AD since less armor is mitigated.

RalanrApr 12, 20174 votes

I think at least the three reworks are getting more unreliable damage or more reliable CC. Personally I'd prefer unreliable damage since reliable CC is basically saying "I did this, now I'm useless until I can do it again!" While unreliable damage can be used for zoning.

ZT XperimentorApr 12, 20171 votes

I concur; tanks have been having more problems against the physical fighters & marksmen, much more than anything else since preseason 6. Tank items across the board have been repeatedly nerfed over the years, while attack damage items have been buffed.

Riot's double standards are disgustingly apparent yet again with this upcoming tank 'update'. Back in patch 7.2 back they said "Tank supports have fallen off in popularity" then shortly after saying "However, sustain doesn’t do much if you’re dead in two seconds". The lack of common sense and forethought regarding general balance is baffling.

lightdragoon88Apr 12, 20173 votes

This is why:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8orL4aCBZrM/WO06YCKn8ZI/AAAAAAAAiGc/3Ou2FJDCoJEKYl9AGJ6QQJK5aVIQ9q3oACLcB/s1600/XtGybWL.png

FrightningApr 12, 20173 votes

item 3075 was generally not worth buying compared to item 3143 or item 3742 because of how shit armor has been thanks to item 3071 and item 3036 (and item 3033 ) and their component item 3035 all being so damn cost efficient against bonus armor. Nice to see that riot is actually going to nerf armor pen/shred because that's long overdue imho. I still remember, about a month after got buffed to 45% bonus arpen, having the epiphany that bonus armor was basically garbage against marksmen because of that item existing in the state that it is (not only does it give disgustingly good pen %, it also had a % damage amp to all of that champion's physical damage against targets tankier than them, capping at 15% at just 500 max health difference, which you will for sure have on a tanky champ).

The only time item 3075 made sense was against teams with multiple basic attack utilizing phys damage champions, and even then, only when comboed with a good pure health item, like item 3083 or item 3022 . (I do this more in ARAM than SR though).

MrHaZeYoApr 12, 20172 votes

It's building into item 3143

DragonSheaApr 12, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captainn Ginyu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bAocV2wp,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-12T03:48:07.902+0000)

is it building into something now? or are we just making it insanely worthless now?

item 3035