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Here are some tips from an actual fencer for Fiora (Rioters please read)(upvote plz)

Dragko··17 votes·1,302 views

First off I like what was done with Fiora, making her more 1v1 based was a good idea since she is a fencer. Most of the Fiora rework is fine except some certain things that seem invalid to her weapon. She is using a rapier which is basically an Epee. But her basic attacks look as if she has a sabre in her hand. Rapiers and the Epee are point based weapons so her basic attacks should reflect this. Understanding that it is a game not everything needs to be precise but at least make an attempt. Secondly Her passive 1. takes to long to show up as a visible target after she hits the first on 2. her passive isn't easy enough to see during a fight( not sure if its too small, or just not visible enough, or both) aside from those 2 points about her passive showing weaknesses that she can exploit that seems pretty accurate.

   Brief review: 1.Make her basic attacks show the thrusting point control based attacks of her weapons(she doesn't have a Sabre)
                         2.Make her passive easier to see(when you get close to them it gets hard to see it, especially on tanks)

35 Comments

Spizzle90003 votes

:O Yeeeeesss another fencer! Personally I hate Fiora because of her accent (no offense, people who have French accents).

She uses a rapier, and I'm pretty sure like what Mathbalnase said, you can cut and thrust with it.

Also, I see the point in finding vitals and stuff, but, personally when I fence I just enjoy to stab where it'll make them able to move less. Perhaps replace some of the damage with a small slow?

Dragko2 votes

well she has a slow so that's not the problem

Spizzle90001 votes

{quoted}

well she has a slow so that's not the problem

True.

The Sword Saint3 votes

Much as I love new Fiora, it does bother me a bit yeah that thrusting isn't featured prominently in her animations.

At the very least if you q right into the maximum range and strike a vital it should be a thrust (since it makes no sense at all otherwise, how else could you be hitting them except with a thrust when lunging in to exactly the maximum possible range).

Whether it's a bug or intentional, the fact that you can't hit a vital if you are 'too close' (ie. closer than max auto attack range) seems to pay homage to fencing being an 'outside' rather than an 'inside' sword form.

I also would like for her passive to come up faster, maybe it starts at .5 seconds but if you consecutively hit the marks (before they time out or leave range) the time could go down to .25 seconds and then 0 seconds on the third consecutive vital hit. Since you still have to dance around them to hit the vital it wouldn't be a straight dps boost in all cases, just in cases where you are able to out maneuver the opponent - 'one step ahead' and all that.

Above all, the glaring issue seems to be with the fluidity of her ult. It seems to take or two whole seconds after you cast it before you can en begin procing vitals, but maybe that's just because I'm often already fighting someone and too close to proc a vital when I cast it. Imo, it should move you back to just inside max vital hitting range when you cast it on someone who is too close you. That would make it feel better and be more reliable.

Dragko1 votes

Very true her passive takes long. but you can hit a vital no matter how close you are

Mathbalnase2 votes

The rapier was commonly a cut-and-thrust blade, leaning towards the thrust. The modern epee is descended from the practice weapon for the smallsword. The smallsword descended from the rapier, but they are not the same weapon. The smallsword is significantly more thrust-centric, shorter, and lighter than the rapier.

Dragko3 votes

You misunderstand... you can cut with the side but the French commonly didn't do this because they wanted to stay as far away and "maintain distance" from their opponent. (which her basic attack entitles)

Mathbalnase1 votes

Historical rapier use gave preference to the thrust. That doesn't mean that people using rapiers neglected to cut when the situation would otherwise warrant doing so.

Dragko3 votes

{quoted}

Historical rapier use gave preference to the thrust. That doesn't mean that people using rapiers neglected to cut when the situation would otherwise warrant doing so.

I'm not talking about situational. using that logic give Vi a grapple..because is the "situation warrants" it she could be able to grab them?...No that's silly all I'm saying is make her basic attack bring light to the weapons actual purpose not "situational purpose."

Mathbalnase1 votes

When dealing with (similarly) competent opponents, ALL effective swordsmanship is 'situational'. The rapier was designed in such a way as to be quite capable of delivering effective cuts, very much unlike the weapons modeled by the modern epee (the rapier is not 'basically an epee'). The 'actual purpose' of the rapier was inflicting mortal or otherwise incapacitating wounds against an opponent. That's pretty much it. How it went about fulfilling that purpose included use both to thrust AND to cut, with either one being fully consistent with said 'actual purpose'.

Dragko3 votes

Have you ever seen an epee? Have you ever felt one in your hand and done combat with it? You may need to experience this before you go any further. An epee is a non-lethal rapier. The French had the preference of only using the tip of the rapiers and they also had a hidden dagger strapped to their back (which is no longer displayed in her splash). They would use the tip to cut and slash but ONLY the tip. Like broski I know what I'm talking about here I'm a fencing coach and a Nationally ranked fencer...

Mathbalnase1 votes

No. The modern epee is descended from a practice weapon for the SMALLSWORD. Which is not the rapier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Épée

The épée /ˈɛpeɪ/ is the modern derivative of the dueling sword, the small sword

Let me guess, you are a 'nationally ranked' modern sport fencer...

Dragko3 votes

{quoted}

No. The modern epee is descended from a practice weapon for the SMALLSWORD. Which is not the rapier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Épée

Let me guess, you are a 'nationally ranked' modern sport fencer...

sigh Fist off the smallsword is a smaller lighter version of the rapier. The epee is heavier than the smallsword, but lighter than the rapier(because of the different material of the rapier). If you would have read the post fully and not skimmed you would see it just proves my point. Please do actual research before you post a link because you may seem silly otherwise.

Mathbalnase1 votes

This site lists the typical french Smallsword weight in the 1-1.5 lb (450-680g) range. (I'd use wikipedia for consistency, but the smallsword page lacks this information)

This wikipedia article lists the average weight of a rapier as approximately 2.2 lbs (1kg).

This wikipedia article lists the common weights of competition epees in the 300-450g range.

Seems to me that the epee is usually lighter than either the Smallsword (by a bit) or the Rapier (by a lot).

The smallsword is not merely a smaller, lighter version of the rapier. It also sacrifices almost all of its cutting ability to facilitate being lighter and more nimble.

Please cite your own sources before discounting mine.

Dragko3 votes

I am my own source and you seem very argumentative on the subject...I'm not sure if you realize what you are arguing about anymore. all of those weapons(which I said are different) are all used primarily for thrusting. thrusting to hit vital organs and such Because they were descended from the rapier. on another note You assumed I was talking about the competition epee. there was an epee used for combat and there was an epee used in completions that lead to death. Not sure why you're still commenting on my post but what you are posting is proving my initial point about Fiora.

Mathbalnase2 votes

You're your own source?

Well congratulations to you.

I am my own source that you're full of shit.

Dragko2 votes

You mad? You come to my post to act like this?

Mathbalnase1 votes

No, I came to your post to have a productive discussion, but that's pretty much impossible to do when one person unilaterally declares their unsupported claims to be truth.

Dragko1 votes

That is because you have yet to prove something that I said as false. Also I have no idea what you're arguing with me about I said that her basic attacks should represent thrusting more than slashing. Then you posted a link that says how the rapier was used for thrusting and still continued to claim that I was wrong. Then began talking about the epee being related to the small sword, which are both descended from the rapier. My claims are not unsupported in fact you have unknowingly supported EVER claim that I have made with your posted links.

 Also if you look at Fiora's weapon the hilt and guard resemble that of an epee very closely even though it is supposed to be a rapier.
 No one is forcing you to make posts on this post either.
Mathbalnase1 votes

{quoted}

That is because you have yet to prove something that I said as false.

You said that the rapier is 'basically an epee'. You said, categorically, that epees are heavier that smallswords.

Both of these are blatantly false. I have provided evidence to that effect. You have provided...your own words and nothing more.

Also I have no idea what you're arguing with me about I said that her basic attacks should represent thrusting more than slashing.

So far as I can tell, this is actually the first time you've said this. Particularly the 'more than', implying some weighted combination of the two. A combination of cuts and thrusts, weighted towards thrusts but including at least some cuts, WOULD be appropriate to Fiora, and would be a change I could support.

Then you posted a link that says how the rapier was used for thrusting and still continued to claim that I was wrong.

'best suited for thrusting attacks' or 'the long thin blade lends itself to thrusting' (wording of the wikipedia article) is not '

Then began talking about the epee being related to the small sword, which are both descended from the rapier.

And the rapier itself is descended from the spada da lato or espada ropera which themselves likely descended in some fashion from the medieval arming sword. Does that mean that the arming sword is 'basically an epee' in the same manner you claim for the rapier?

My claims are not unsupported in fact you have unknowingly supported EVER claim that I have made with your posted links.

Bullshit. See above.

 Also if you look at Fiora's weapon the hilt and guard resemble that of an epee very closely even though it is supposed to be a rapier.

And if you look at the 'Classic Fiora' splash art, the blade is CLEARLY far wider than that of an epee and one that would be fully capable of delivering an effective cut. In fact, it seems rather wide even for a rapier, let alone a smallsword or an epee. Hell, with that bulge towards the center of percussion, it looks almost as though her blade were intended not only to cut, but to CHOP.

Meanwhile Nightraven Fiora's spash art clearly shows a curved blade, which definitely indicates a tendency for cutting, and is an adaptation that notably sacrifices thrusting efficacy in exchange for that cutting efficacy.

At least you've got Royal Guard Fiora who seems to have a thrust-focused blade.(though it's hard to tell in that image if it's a cut-and-thrust leaning thrust or a thrust-dedicated sword, I'll give you this one, as I'm feeling generous).

(Headmistress Fiora uses a ruler, which would be ineffective in either case, so we'll leave that one out.)

2v1, Fiora's splash art clearly indicates her blade's ample accommodation towards the cut.

 No one is forcing you to make posts on this post either.

And no one is forcing you to be so consistently hilariously wrong.

Trylobyte1 votes

{quoted}

Historical rapier use gave preference to the thrust. That doesn't mean that people using rapiers neglected to cut when the situation would otherwise warrant doing so.

While yes, a rapier is capable of administering a slashing attack, that's not primarily what it existed for - It's weightier than a smallsword, but it's still too light and too thin to do much more than piss off whoever you cut with it. It takes more force than you probably realize to inflict significant damage with a slashing blade (which is why they tend to be thick, heavy blades like the sabre) and the rapier just doesn't have the weight for it. Rapiers were best employed to stab someone through a weakpoint in armor so you could hit a vital organ, which is why their blades are long and very thin.

Mathbalnase1 votes

Bring your sources or join the rest.

Trylobyte1 votes

{quoted}

Bring your sources or join the rest.

My source is called 'physics.' A rapier is an inferior slashing weapon because it's so thin. If you get a good hard slash with it that momentum can either choose to disperse by cutting the opponent or by bending the blade, and with a rapier being so thin the blade is going to bend significantly and remove a lot of that force. Compare that to a typical cavalry sabre - which you'll observe is thicker - and the sabre has a lot less force dispersing through the bending of the blade, which means more force is going into the body, producing a larger wound. This isn't to say slashing didn't have its place with a rapier - A quick slash to the forehead produced a wound that bled like hell and often into the eyes - but it wasn't intended to deal damage so much as it was to distract and annoy.

Sure, you can slash someone to death with a rapier, but you can also beat someone to death with a gun. That doesn't make it the ideal or intended purpose of the weapon.

Mathbalnase1 votes

I see no source, just another fool talking out their ass.

Trylobyte1 votes

{quoted}

I see no source, just another fool talking out their ass.

Source: The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts.

It has an entire section of several paragraphs in length on why you are wrong, beginning about halfway down the page.

Go away now.

Mathbalnase1 votes

From the first answer section of your own link:

The various historical terms for rapier referred to a slender cut-and-thrust sword capable of limited** slashing and slicing blows** and equally suited to military or civilian use.

(bolding added)

Bite me.

Trylobyte1 votes

{quoted}

From the first answer section of your own link:

(bolding added)

Bite me.

Read the whole page, buddy. There's even a statement on it discussing the exact wrong argument you're making right now:

"They provide no examples of historical combats in which rapier cuts alone actually kill anyone and they ignore modern experiments that objectively demonstrate the poor cutting ability of slender rapier blades. They instead try to purposely obscure the differences between military cut-and-thrust swords (or “early” rapiers) from later civilian duelling weapons (or “true” rapiers)."

Done with this thread, though. You're either trolling or stupid, and either way you're not really entertaining. You'll just pick and choose enough out-of-context words to try to make yourself seem right even though you're not just so you can get the last word and pretend that you know something. Everyone willing to dedicate five minutes to research will know you're wrong.

Mathbalnase2 votes

Based wholly on a No True Scottsman fallacy.

To brings this back around to Fiora: there were weapons of the approximate form Fiora is shown using which were called 'rapiers' by those using them at the time of their use. They were and are 'rapiers'. Some of these rapiers were capable of cutting as well as thrusting. Fiora is shown cutting with her rapier. From that, we can (and must) conclude that her rapier is one capable of cutting. To conclude that Fiora's weapon is one that should not be used to cut necessitates that we first assume that Fiora's weapon is one that should not be used to cut and argue from that that Fiora's weapon is one that should not be used to cut. It is yet another fallacy. (this time 'begging the question' or 'circular reasoning')

To accurately represent rapier use, Fiora should probably intermingle a combination of thrusts and cuts. Which she does via a combination of her AAs and abilities. The relative proportion of each attack may not be ideal, but the presence of either (or both) is NOT INAPPROPRIATE to her weapon.

Of particular interest to this thread (see rapier vs smallsword vs epee), your source has the following to say:

There is also a lot of misinformation on the Internet from those who base their understanding of the rapier more upon modern sport fencing rather than the actual weapons and historical source works.

Dragko1 votes

There is really no point to arguing with this guy because he is too thick headed and argumentative. He also claims that he wants "sources" but never seems to read his own sources just seems to skim through the passage just reading what he wants to see but no seeing what the big picture says.

Mathbalnase1 votes

Dude, you are the 'sport fencer' Trylobyte's source warns about.

Dragko1 votes

Sir, I teach the sport of fencing. But the art of fencing I myself had to learn as a mart of my martial arts training. Just because someone knows about a single subject does not mean their knowledge can't be spread out further than that one subject. Furthermore you have very poor grounds to argue with me on you are actually arguing yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. Once again not sure why you are arguing with me about this STILL maybe you have nothing to do and need a cause to argue for...But part of growing up is being able to admit when you are wrong which in this case you are very wrong so maybe you need sometime to grow up... If you would like you can come to my fencing club and I will teach you all about fencing.

steampig1 votes

{quoted}

While yes, a rapier is capable of administering a slashing attack, that's not primarily what it existed for - It's weightier than a smallsword, but it's still too light and too thin to do much more than piss off whoever you cut with it. It takes more force than you probably realize to inflict significant damage with a slashing blade (which is why they tend to be thick, heavy blades like the sabre) and the rapier just doesn't have the weight for it. Rapiers were best employed to stab someone through a weakpoint in armor so you could hit a vital organ, which is why their blades are long and very thin.

Which even makes sense given her new vital strike thing. It's obviously meant to poke, not slash, so the animation slashing at a vital organ makes no sense.

Rozzeta1 votes

Not sure if they'll be changing the animation at this point, but a darker color for the passive might be good.

LaceUp231 votes

You must not be too confident in your work if you are actively asking for upvotes.

Dragko1 votes

The point of upvotes is so more people see it...what do you mean?

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