Boards›Gameplay

@Riot The really upsetting thing about the Veigar nerfs

ComeOnAndSlamJam··176 votes·7,963 views

Veigar was nerfed, because as a support, he could counter high mobility champions and that threatened the flashy high mobility meta Riot has been pushing.

That's fine. This is Riot's game, they can enforce whatever meta they want. They can balance the game however they want. This isn't a thread to complain about the balance team. I find myself disliking 90% of what they do, but that isn't what this thread is for.

This thread is about how Riot handled the communication with the community around Veigar's nerfs.

Riot stated that Veigar had "compensation buffs" coming for the removal of DFG. It made sense that he would be compensated for the removal of DFG, as it was a definite core item on him. But then the actual patch rolled around, and there were no compensation buffs at all. Just nerfs to 3/4 of his abilities. I'm not angry about the nerfs. I disagree with them, but the balance team can (and will) do whatever it wants, without listening to community feedback. What I'm angry about is the bait and switch. Don't tell us compensation buffs are coming, before nerfing a champion out of the game.

Don't feed the community shit, and then try to tell us it's chocolate pudding. We're not stupid. If you're going to make controversial changes to the game, openly state the changes and explain them. I think there would've been a tenth as much anger if you'd just come out and stated why Veigar was getting gutted.

tl;dr

Really talented Koreans figured out that Veigar counters super mobile champs as a bot lane support and that threatens the mobility meta. Riot doesn't want the mobility meta to end, because twitchy Call of Duty: Runeterra Edition has been deemed to be the most interesting thing to see in LoL, so they gutted Veigar under the guise of "Compensation buffs". Gutting Veigar is fine. Being dishonest about it isn't.

124 Comments

not a starburst47 votes

It's dishonest of Riot to tell us you have "compensation buffs" coming for him, and then turn around and literally nerf him into the ground. This wasn't even a change that could be charitably called neutral. It was a straight nerf. And don't try to tell me the Q and W changes were buffs. You no longer have control over whether or if the Q hits, and you're never ever going to land that W unless the other person is dead already anyway.

The rework doesn't make me as angry as the flat out lie we were given. I was excited for the Veigar changes. I wanted to see how they would change him. Instead, Veigar gets trashed and we're told that these are changes and not nerfs, even though anyone with a brain could tell that they are, in fact, really hard nerfs. So instead of compensation we get this travesty of a change.

Riot says they don't balance off of the LCS but wow does this ever look like a case of

#LC$B!GPLAY$

being valued over the common player being able to have some fun.

Arcane Azmadi4 votes

Can't argue with that logic. I was just thinking yesterday that it's tragically hilarious that people in the LCS were just starting to play Veigar support literally RIGHT before he gets ruined, wondering if maybe they were just taking one last chance to do so before it's gone, until I realised that that's it exactly.

Riot aren't incompetant. Well they are, but not in this case. They're devious. I was wondering how they could *possibly *be so stupid as to think these changes would be good for Veigar, but it makes perfect sense if it was intentional. This was never INTENDED to be a buff to Veigar at all. This was a blatant Eve-job (remember when they deliberately BROKE her and were completely transparent about their intent to make her competatively unviable until they could get a full rework out for her?) designed to kill support Veigar, disguised as just another "oops, teehee, my bad" misguided rework.

They didn't get away with it this time, though. Maybe they thought they were being clever, but devious as they are, they're not devious enough. This was just TOO obvious to cover up. Riot, revert the fucking Veigar nerfs and stop being such twats. We're onto you.

Kaisha2 votes

This is a typical GC-nerf. If you were around during his time with blizzard you would know the pattern. GC says 1 thing, does something completely different, then claims some crap about lack of and/or miscommunication. He really just does not care in the least.

Yoella34 votes

Yeah they lie to us all the time. I was a Veigar main. Shortly after they announced the changes to his E I stopped playing. Veigar wasn't the whole reason I played, but he was a big part of it. I was considering going back to playing, but then I discovered that they kept the ~0.5 second cast time on TOP of adding a 0.75 second delay w/ warning particles to his E. At that point I just lost heart. I haven't touched my League client since, and I have no desire to in the foreseeable future. I've found other games to play and spend my money on, ones that won't lie to me and fuck over my favorite champion under the guise of "buffing him" just because they don't want to deal with him intelligently. I think Riot cares more about its precious LCS than the players that made it popular enough to create LCS in the first place. I still check forums and S@20 in hopes of changes but it doesn't look good.

Tl;dr: After Veigar got demolished I quit League, I now play other games instead. Riot lied to us. Riot only cares about LCS not the players who made it popular enough for LCS to exist in the first place.

Cloakedbug2 votes

Not that they care, but same here man. Saw my main absolutely freaking trashed for no reason - I have not been able to look at a league thread or game without absolute fury at riot for this.

HE WASN'T EVEN POPULAR. HE WASN'T WINNING A LOT. HE GETS NATURALLY COUNTERED BY THE ENTIRE METAS CURRENT ROSTER.

F*** you riot balance team.

SmokingPuffin20 votes

Two awkward things happened to Riot here.

  1. They announced compensation buffs for DFG, but then they found out that at most levels of play people were just terrible at remembering to use the active at the right time. As a result, they didn't have much pressure to buff anything after all, and the first champion they did buff went to 57% win rate.
  2. After they announced that Veigar buffs were going to happen, Korea discovered that Veigar is actually super handy for disengage comps. A buffed Veigar would have become a 100% pick/ban support, and they want him to be a 0% pick rate support because he doesn't create the gameplay they like.
Thryale7 votes

the problem is riot is trying to dictate how the game is played instead of leaving it to the players. This is my biggest gripe with riot over the years. The core reason league appealed to me so much when I first started playing was how it had a slight sandbox nature to in how you chose to pursue victory. But now with riot trying to tell us how the game should be played, I feel that the community as a whole is slowly getting dumbed down in the process. :/

KaisadiIIa10 votes

Well, then it'll be fine if they say "We think Veigar doesn't make money, so we don't want you to play it. We won't delete it, but we will delete his skills. Go forward and pick Ahri".

Btw, it's curious that every "compensated" champion has been actually nerved except Ahri, the only one that does flashy big plays.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Veigar actually has a pretty interesting legendary skin, so I wouldn't go all "Veigar doesn't make money, so Riot will never let him be good" here.

I think Veigar will eventually end up stronger than he was. As long as Veigar had the reliable E, he was going to get nerfed anytime he showed any life at all. Now that he doesn't, I expect buffs by 5.6 and I don't see a big reason he has to stay in purgatory.

KaisadiIIa13 votes

I don't know if they did it on purpose or they are just incompetent, but Veigar's rework is a disaster. You don't like Veigar or think he's unhealthy? OK, your opinion, then rework him. But spend time reworking that champion to make a cool, viable kit. But nope, they did not that, they just made stupid changes that I'm sure it took a minute for them to think about. I can spend a couple of hours and I will come with a better rework than the one they did. They just don't care about Veigar and so they spent 3 minutes on destroying his kit. They've sold enough Final Bosses.

And I may be wrong: maybe they are doing every change with the best intention. Maybe when Ghostcrawler said "mobility is fun, so we will keep adding mobility to every kit", he really thought that we all want Malzahar and Anivia to have free dashes. Maybe when they gutted Kassadin or reworked Skaner (his first rework), they thought there was a "silent majority" that wanted these nerves. But one thing is clear: If they are trying to balance the game, they are doing it really bad: the game is becoming more and more unbalanced every patch. Even Season 1 was more balanced and had more diversity than we have today. But they can keep "adding mobility because mobility is fun".

LyraSona1 votes

You people have yet to even define what you mean by "more balanced" or "less balanced." Do really want every single hero to be viable at the upper levels of play? Why is it assumed that that is better than just a few heroes at the top? In the end you can only have 5 heroes per team, what does diversity matter? The game is being created into something fun to play, fun to watch, easy to learn, but difficult to master. That's the way it should be. Some heroes will just not be at the top.

KaisadiIIa6 votes
  1. RIOT wants every champion to be viable.
  2. "We have only 5 heroes, so diversity doesn't matter" is so stupid I now understand why George Bush was president. Twice.
  3. This game was created to be fun to play but competitively complex and diverse.
SEKAI11 votes

Do really want every single hero to be viable at the upper levels of play?

Why is it a bad thing, if anything it should be CELEBRATED! If it happens anyway.

If a game is more balanced, the pick and ban rate would be hella more even than it is today, 0 point something vs 20+ % pick rate is nowhere NEAR the balanced line, just sayin'.

Some heroes will just not be at the top.

This mentality is wrong in any game, it's just a lazy way to look at things. A great game would strive to have everything viable in its own way, even in the highest level (unless your game is so mofo huge it becomes pretty much impossible, LoL only has 130 champs or so unlike you know, MtG for instance). If something is simply designed to not be able to reach the top, or something is designed to always be there, no matter how you look at it, it's not fair nor is it good balance at all.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

You don't happen to play leblanc do you? For some reason I get that impression off such a ridiculous comment.

LyraSona1 votes

Ashe is literally the only hero I play right now.

I WILL TROLL YOU1 votes

Hey puffins you where just on another thread I started saying riot doesn't make changes to enforce a meta. Now you are here saying they do. Whose side are you on the players or riots ?

LANWhale17 votes

Honestly, I hate the Veigar nerfs, but satisfied to see the changes.

Not as in the I like the changes, my gawd i hate them with a burning passion, but rather I can see the upside to it. What is the upside to it? The fact that this allows Veigar to be buffed accordingly.

As for as I could tell, if some one wanted to buff Veigar it would have to be in the form of

Utility at the cost of damage or Damage at the cost of utility

These changes allow Veigar to be buffed without losing any utility. Are they good changes? No. In fact they could of been handle much better but I hope they at least accomplish there job. in allowing Veigar to be buffed without having to nerf his other spells. Time will tell.

Retillin22 votes

But doesn't the idea of waiting for the buffs "he's less toxic now so we can safely buff him" fall when we have seen them say the same thing about other champions and then never buff them...?

qetzel2 votes

Can I have some examples? I mean examples where somebody from Riot (Meddler in this case) said that they would buff the champion sometime in the next few patches.

Retillin14 votes

Heimer is the first one that pops into my mind.

LANWhale3 votes

Did they not buff him on his rework? Which is why he got tuned done a notch so he wouldn't be to over bearing to lane against.

Even though he is still super annoying to lane with.

EDIT: If you think this sounds rhetorical, its not, i'm sorry if it comes off that way but i'm genuinely asking if he did?

Retillin2 votes

The problem was, they put him in a place where he was competing with other mages at high level play. They (Riot) didn't like his play style even after his rework, that they okayed.... So they then nerfed him.

LANWhale1 votes

Hm I see, but over all though you have to admit watching Heimer in lane is pretty boring. Not that i'm justifying a champion getting nerfed because they didn't like his play style but I suppose you can see why, other than they didn't like his playstyle.

Retillin3 votes

Oh I understand the nerfs. But you can't say things like "compensation" and then nerf. That makes you look like a liar.

If a kit makes the game boring to watch, and that is their main goal it's why Lee Sin is never nerfed, then rework the kit. But when you watch the LCS or LCK, if you watch the pro matches, you hear the crowd go wild when something new is picked. I would rather have had them play with the length of the stun instead of just gutting Viegar the way they did and saying it was a buff. That just makes Riot look bad.

chumbler11 votes

{quoted}

But doesn't the idea of waiting for the buffs "he's less toxic now so we can safely buff him" fall when we have seen them say the same thing about other champions and then never buff them...?

Not only that, he's actually more "toxic" (not that that word has any meaning) now that literally the only thing he can do is deal damage. This is complete shit design, and completely expected from the shit designers at Riot.

IcyPepper18 votes

Utility at the cost of damage

Reminder that Lee Sin has an ultimate that has 200% bonus AD scaling with no energy cost whatsoever.

LANWhale6 votes

I know, you know, we know.

Don't think i have forgotten about that and as valid as that is, it is just not applicable. Why? For the simple reason that Lee seems to be untouchable in regards to nerfs. I don't know why, I want to know why, but we wont know till it happens. Lee will always be the exception so there's that.

Over all though, your right there is no reason for Lee to have that kind of damage on such a heavy utility ult with no cost. What else can I say, other than the fact that we all agree that its pretty BS.

IcyPepper9 votes

I mean, Vi's ult is getting its base damage nerfed now, and its scaling is already worse than Lee Sin's... and it puts her in harm's way in teamfights, while it can save Lee Sin's. And her ult costs mana. -_-

LANWhale8 votes

Welcome to Lee, How would you like to avoid all nerfs? LeeSin

But in all seriousness, I have nothing to say to counter this. He needs to be nerfed, no doubt about it, but Riot seems not to think so. Perhaps they might nerf him soon seeing as how Vi got nerfed and Jarvan got scratched (shows that at least they realize hes is pretty strong). But Lee denies like an entire role in the jungle that being tank.

Or they might not, but as far as my personal opinion goes, Lee needs a entire re-work. Just saying that reminds the one time Riot brought that up and my blood just starts to boil for what they did to Veigar.

IcyPepper3 votes

But hey, maybe they'll give him some *compensation *buffs.

LANWhale4 votes

**The ** #Dream

Retillin1 votes

He does need an entire kit rework. The problem (and where Riot kinda comes across as lying) is that other champions that need kit reworks Riot nerfs to a point that they are not at the top of the pile while they do it. Or if he is as "balanced" as Riot stats, then why is he always a top 3 jungler on average per patch? That is not balance, that is strong.

LANWhale2 votes

Like I said every one here knows that Lee is a problem for diversity. He literally denies an entire role in the jungle, tanks. Which is why I can never see tanks being viable until they nerf or rework him.

Its not the issue that Lee is blatantly over powered the issue is that he denies diversity, as far as I can see. And as Riot stated them selves they want jungle diversity, which is why I say that they need to address the big problem, Lee.

Raxicor1 votes

Is this thread about Veigar or Lee?

LeeDark3 votes

What utitlity? He has an unreliable stun. THAT is ALL his utility. He is nothing more than a late game damage mage who never makes it to late game because he is easily bullied and camped early and mid. His stun used to give him significant power in the midgame as a utility mage, and THEN it would make sense to buff and nerf to increase his utility (mid game power) in exchange for some late game damage. What doesn't make sense is nerfing both his utility and damage simultaneously.

OF COURSE these changes allow Veigar to be buffed. He is, according to the statistics, one of the three absolute WEAKEST champions in the game. Here's the thing: they'll buff him a little because he fell so far, but the buffs will still make him nothing but a shadow of his former self. People like you will still eat it up and go, "See? They can buff him now!"

Nucleophilic atk14 votes

{quoted}

Don't feed the community shit, and then try to tell us it's chocolate pudding. We're not stupid.

My teammates determined that was a lie.

Deep Terror Nami8 votes

If they make Veigar's Event Horizon instantly stun again, I want Nami's Aqua Prison to get it, Thresh's Death Sentence to have no wind-up time, Taric's whateveritisnobodyplayshim to have no travel time, and same to whatever else has a cast time or travel time CC.

Or would that make them OP?

ComeOnAndSlamJam28 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aJO2FBNr,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-01T22:21:56.998+0000)

If they make Veigar's Event Horizon instantly stun again, I want Nami's Aqua Prison to get it, Thresh's Death Sentence to have no wind-up time, Taric's whateveritisnobodyplayshim to have no travel time, and same to whatever else has a cast time or travel time CC.

Or would that make them OP?

First, Viegar's stun was never instant. It's always had a cast time.

Second. I'm not here to argue about the balance changes. There are a million other threads to do that in. This thread is about how riot handled the communication around the changes. Saying that Veigar was getting "Compensation buffs" then gutting him is complete bullshit, regardless of balance issues. Gutting Veigar is fine, I just want them to be honest and open about what they're doing and why.

Deep Terror Nami4 votes

There's a big difference between "cast time" that I'm speaking of, and "cast time" as in you stop moving when you use it. Nami's (W) Ebb & Flow is instant but she has to stop to cast it, and her (E) Tidecaller's Blessing is instant and can be cast while moving. Cast-while-moving is a very rare type of instant (Syndra does this with Q and possibly more of hers). You can argue all day that Event Horizon wasn't an instant because he had to stop, but you're mostly wrong.

RazorTS4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aJO2FBNr,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-01T22:32:44.164+0000)

There's a big difference between "cast time" that I'm speaking of, and "cast time" as in you stop moving when you use it. Nami's (W) Ebb & Flow is instant but she has to stop to cast it, and her (E) Tidecaller's Blessing is instant and can be cast while moving. Cast-while-moving is a very rare type of instant (Syndra does this with Q and possibly more of hers). You can argue all day that Event Horizon wasn't an instant because he had to stop, but you're mostly wrong.

we will rephrase it then, all his abilitys including his stun is channeled spells, if you cc him mid cast they stop.

Sozan52 votes

That is incorrect.

CCing doesn't stop cast-times and Veigar is no exception. The only thing that can stop cast-time is death (as far as I'm aware at least).

RazorTS3 votes

{quoted}

That is incorrect.

CCing doesn't stop cast-times and Veigar is no exception. The only thing that can stop cast-time is death (as far as I'm aware at least).

actually it does stop

we know there is 4 types of spells casting ways

free movement ala syndra stop to cast - no cast time, but no movement channel to cast - has longish cast time, spell fizzles but cd not consumed if interrupted and full channeled cd consumed if interrupted

Audiomancy8 votes

Circular/Line skillshots vs Ring skillshot. Big difference. And aside from that, they both have secondary effects. Nami's deals damage and applies her passive while Thresh's gives him mobility and damages.

Deep Terror Nami2 votes

...If Nami's Aqua Prison did no damage at all, but had zero travel time, she would be 100% pick/ban, being the single most powerful Support in the game. 99 times out of 100, you aren't using Aqua Prison for damage, so your argument is built on sand, and this Veigar circle jerk is fueled by emotion. Instant stuns are extremely powerful, and AoE instant stuns are insane.

There is not a big difference between a "ring" skillshot and a circle/line. The only difference is the skill floor is higher with Veigar's. That's like saying Zed and Lee Sin suck because they're hard to master; ya, tell the forums that, they will laugh you out of the boards.

Audiomancy15 votes

And if Veigar's stun is so game-breakingly powerful, why hasn't he ever been an FotM Support? Why hasn't he been Pick-Or-Ban in every LCS game since Season 1?

You keep saying that his instant AoE stun was powerful, and I completely agree, as a standalone skill, it is. But this is League. Champions are (mostly) not defined by one single ability. There are other factors involved, other abilities that all add to that champions total strength. Imagine if you took away Cassiopeia's E reset or LeBlanc's Return Pad. They would be garbage. Their main gimmick destroyed. You can't just consider one ability to be overpowered by itself because it is part of a whole kit and is thus balanced around that kit. Similarly, Veigar is balanced around his Stun. His W might as well not exist without it because without that long-duration stun, he can't land shit.

Korass6 votes

This is simple. Veigar was buffed for anyone who really knows how to use his farming potential. Changing his Q into a skill shot and allowing it to hit multiple targets means double farm. Its crazy. Veigars main role is AP mage carry. Its not support. Its cool that people played him that way, just like its cool that people play Vel'Koz as support but the changes they make to these champions are always going to be for their intended role.

Maybe just practice and get better with his new play style before judging him, you played him once back in December and havent touched him since. At least not in your match history.

Go queue up and actually try him out.

Raid Boss Morde6 votes

What about the "buffs" on Mordekaiser for DFG's removal too? They nerfed both of these champs.

Ser Safir6 votes

110 upvotes, and not a red post brave enough to respond.

Partholonian1 votes

They responded by buffing him on PBE. Which is a tacit admission that they overnerfed him in 5.4, but still, at least it shows they're aware he's not in a good place right now and they're doing something about it.

Ignas6 votes

Veigar's Win Rate went to 46% pre-nerf to 39% post-nerf (in solo queue). He wasn't the game-breaking stunner everyone makes him out to be. Now he's just been nerfed into the ground.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by ComeOnAndSlamJam

Make a "troll" queue
Player Behavior217 comments
182
votes
Give us a "Skilled Player" report to handle smurfs
Gameplay187 comments
168
votes
How much skill can be learned? How much is innate?
Gameplay22 comments
11
votes
Lee Sin players are bad people
Gameplay12 comments
8
votes
Intentionally Tilting Opponents
Player Behavior21 comments
7
votes
My Only Form of Protest
Gameplay2 comments
5
votes