This is like my 7th post and no response i am going crazy not knowing what your gonna do to solo lane lulu. I just really dont want you guys to keep nerfing her becausee thats like her entire history. Thats why support lulu is so weak.
RiotMeddler14 votesChanges we're testing below, with the goal of making her a bit more vulnerable in some match ups, while preserving her survivability against AD damage dealers.
Archon X1 votesChanges we're testing below, with the goal of making her a bit more vulnerable in some match ups, while preserving her survivability against AD damage dealers.
- Base stats Base Armor increased :: 19 >>> 23 Base Health reduced :: 553 >>> 518
- Pix, Faerie Companion (Passive) Pix can trigger Tribute (from the Spellthief item line) once per Lulu basic attack (instead of never triggering it at all)
OP! Thanks Rito.
DanofDemacia2 votesChanges we're testing below, with the goal of making her a bit more vulnerable in some match ups, while preserving her survivability against AD damage dealers.
- Base stats Base Armor increased :: 19 >>> 23 Base Health reduced :: 553 >>> 518
- Pix, Faerie Companion (Passive) Pix can trigger Tribute (from the Spellthief item line) once per Lulu basic attack (instead of never triggering it at all)
:O ok so no nerfs to mid lulu?
hpp35 votesBase health reduction is a nerf to mid lulu, and the spellthief change and base armor are meant to compensate support lulu.
HuRei7 votesBecause base health reduction doesn't affect support lulu lol. What they did is just nerf both support and mid lulu. If they want Lulu to be used as support then the most simple approach would be reducing AP ratio for all skills and raising the base stats for all skills
Needles K5 votesI think the concern is that then she builds tanky and steamrolls top.
Abyssphere1 votes[{quoted}](name=Needles K,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZgRPXgct,comment-id=00000002000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-01T21:16:47.504+0000)
I think the concern is that then she builds tanky and steamrolls top.
Has there ever been any sign that she'd do that? Was tank solo Lulu a thing when her bases were higher in the past?
HuRei5 votes[{quoted}](name=Needles K,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZgRPXgct,comment-id=00000002000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-01T21:16:47.504+0000)
I think the concern is that then she builds tanky and steamrolls top.
That will only work if:
Current Lulu kit doesn't allow that to happen, and there will be so many more efficient tanks that can do more than what Lulu can provide.
Blackquill1 votes^This.
DanofDemacia2 votesBase health reduction is a nerf to mid lulu, and the spellthief change and base armor are meant to compensate support lulu.
its a nerf to both lol and the armor kind of covers it i thought they were gonna touch her ratioss or bae damage
The Yetii Rider2 votes:O ok so no nerfs to mid lulu?
They cut her base health by 35. That's a nerf, definitely.
CSDragon1 votesLook at the context:
Less health, more armor. Who goes mid? AP champs mostly. Therefore, she'll be squishier vs AP champs but take about the same damage from ADCs in the botlane.
cquinn1 votesI really like the direction of these changes, and I hope to see more Lulu in the bottom lane. She is a significant lane bully that could go toe to toe with the current meta support picks.
Z Statistic10 votes19 base armor.
PEHP at lvl 1 for Lulu pre change = 898.7 PEHP at lvl 1 for Lulu post change = 876.9
2.5% reduction in PEHP at lvl 1 in exchange for...a QoL buff that will psychologically encourage players to trade/cast less often which will deal less overall damage...?
Maybe it's better when she peaks at lvl 5?
Pre change: 1351.8 Post change: 1336.3
Nope, still fucking worse.
Look, if you want to say that she's too tanky early on and want to do some asymmetrical squishification to her early game, ok. I disagree that she's really that tanky, but ok. It's better than misconstruing nerfs and somehow saying this is a net buff by shifting her power.
A shift in her power would be if you guys fixed her bug where flat block is taken TWICE per auto (once for the AD and once for Pix), effectively making her lvl 1 Pix useless. THAT would be a good buff if you're going to make her squishier.
The only buff I can see if that the armor increase lets me have one more PEHP every 10 seconds when I use coin. I really don't care about Lulu nerfs anymore. Quite frankly, 2.5% isn't going to make or break a significant portion of my games; I'm not diamond. It's the spinning of change after change and after change as a buff when it's a nerf that really hacks me off.
It doesn't make me think you're lying; it makes me think you guys have no freaking idea about Lulu. Just let Xypherous have his way with her so she can be nerfed to Yorick's level. At least it will screw with the enemy's mind when I do well with her.
RiotMeddler12 votesWe're not trying to present this as a buff overall. This is a nerf to Lulu overall, done in a way that should have noticeably lower impact for support Lulu/solo Lulu against physical damage dealers.
Retillin11 votesSo what is the plan to buff her support play? Or is she just going to be left weaker while that is figured out?
Meanie409 votesThis is Riot saying "Dammit, you're a Support. STAY OUT OF THE OTHER LANES!!!!!!"
Riot has a history of forcing Support champions solely into the Support role (see, for example, the Soraka rework). Meanwhile, if a non-Support champion becomes a Support (Morgana, Trundle, Nautilus), that's perfectly fine.
RiotPhreak15 votesNo, Lulu is fine in either. See: Lulu, Karma, Zyra working in both. Varus, Ezreal, Corki working Mid/Bot. Nautilus working Top/Support. You're injecting your own assumed intent and cherry-picking examples and saying, "Yep, this is a pattern." The issue with Soraka is that consistent self-healing often ends up being extremely problematic, as once you hit enough mana regen to keep the spell up, you no longer have gameplay in the lane.
Lulu may not be super common in NA/EU. But she is almost 100% red side ban or blue side first pick in both Korea and China and finally growing in Western popularity. League of Legends is played globally and honestly, the Asian teams just end up being faster at picking up on this. In short: Lulu is overpowered in solo lanes right now.
So let's circle back to these changes.
Most mid lane and some top lane matchups are magic damage focused. Very few bottom lane matchups are. Her durability is now roughly equal vs physical (plus, hp5, damage blocking via the defensive masteries, potions, and her shield further inflate the value of armor) but definitely weaker vs. magic. Thus, Lulu is weaker in solo lane matchups more than in support matchups. Plus the Spellthief buffs on her.
KingWanahakalugi6 votesPhreak, I think someone hacked your account. I see a distinct lack of puns.
Lady Septimus2 votes:/ so soraka can never be in a solo lane again?
SuperLuigiLXIV4 votesThen why, WHY was Taric nerfed into the dirt after two days of being a decent top lane champion :(
Thryale4 votesThe issue with Soraka is that consistent self-healing often ends up being extremely problematic, as once you hit enough mana regen to keep the spell up, you no longer have gameplay in the lane.
see vlad
...no comment...
Phoenix Kotori 5 votesLulu may not be super common in NA/EU. But she is almost 100% red side ban or blue side first pick in both Korea and China and finally growing in Western popularity. League of Legends is played globally and honestly, the Asian teams just end up being faster at picking up on this. In short: Lulu is overpowered in solo lanes right now
No she isn't she has too much synergy with the precious late game marksman you guys have been refusing to touch.
Even when Lulu is banned Kog/Vayne/Trist/Jinx/Kalista are picked a ton at least one in every match it seems commonly 2, and Lulu (like Soraka) just happens to work really well with them.
And this annoying me because you're screaming about how you don't want to nerf vayne and think buffing one or two counterpicks will fix her, even though she's rapidly increasing in competitively rate lately.
Linna Excel3 votesThe issue with Soraka is that consistent self-healing often ends up being extremely problematic, as once you hit enough mana regen to keep the spell up, you no longer have gameplay in the lane.
Actually soraka's issue wasn't so much about mana during her laning phase and more about her Q shortening the CD on her W in the past. If you look at soraka's mana costs they were, and still are, crazy for a support.
However now it seems like she's too weak to 1v1 and I don't want any champ to be in that spot.
The Yetii Rider6 votesNo, Lulu is fine in either. See: Lulu, Karma, Zyra working in both. Varus, Ezreal, Corki working Mid/Bot. Nautilus working Top/Support. You're injecting your own assumed intent and cherry-picking examples and saying, "Yep, this is a pattern." The issue with Soraka is that consistent self-healing often ends up being extremely problematic, as once you hit enough mana regen to keep the spell up, you no longer have gameplay in the lane.
Lulu may not be super common in NA/EU. But she is almost 100% red side ban or blue side first pick in both Korea and China and finally growing in Western popularity. League of Legends is played globally and honestly, the Asian teams just end up being faster at picking up on this. In short: Lulu is overpowered in solo lanes right now.
So let's circle back to these changes.
Most mid lane and some top lane matchups are magic damage focused. Very few bottom lane matchups are. Her durability is now roughly equal vs physical (plus, hp5, damage blocking via the defensive masteries, potions, and her shield further inflate the value of armor) but definitely weaker vs. magic. Thus, Lulu is weaker in solo lane matchups more than in support matchups. Plus the Spellthief buffs on her.
But...most supports deal magic damage. She's still weaker in the duo lane.
henrebotha2 votesBut...most supports deal magic damage. She's still weaker in the duo lane.
Yes, but in which scenario does weakness to magic damage affect her more:
The Yetii Rider5 votesYes, but in which scenario does weakness to magic damage affect her more:
- In a solo lane, versus a magic damage opponent building damage items; or
- In a duo lane, versus a physical damage opponent building damage items and a magic damage opponent building utility items?
Yes because we all know Annie loves to buy Sightstone and not Luden's Echo.
Hyrum Graff2 votesYes because we all know Annie loves to buy Sightstone and not Luden's Echo.
We both know Annie likes to buy luden's. After she buys ss.
henrebotha1 votesYes because we all know Annie loves to buy Sightstone and not Luden's Echo.
That doesn't matter. In a duo lane, you have more damage on the enemy side, sure. But you also have more damage on your side, which means it balances out. And you have two targets on your side, which means the damage gets spread out, with about half of it being physical.
Loomybinn7 votesTL:DR Lulu was balanced before and the Meta Shifted around her. Why not focus on the root reason why Lulu is so contested?
I find it a little frustrating that the first impulse is to nerf solo lane lulu without really looking at WHY Lulu is hot right now. Lulu hasn't had a meaningful change since 4.13 and that was a nerf. And yet recently she has seen only recently been seen as a contested pick again. Lulu is such a contested pick because hyper-carries, like Vayne, Jinx, and Tristana are all really strong right now. Lulu is picked to amplify those carries in their ability to carry. Nerfing solo lane Lulu won't fix the pattern for why she was picked in the first place. It's only a stop gap that will push players on to other champs with similar play styles like Orianna or Karma. Lulu is just the best champ currently in the most common metagame being played in competitive League.
There are a few reasons why hypercarries are strong right now, including nerfs to counters and the changes to IE, but I think that Lulu is just a symptom of a larger issue in League that needs to be addressed. Lulu might be too strong right now, but when hyper-carries are brought back in line, nerfs to her might make solo lane Lulu too weak. Maybe, maybe not. But it is good to consider.
Per Se Lulu Bot2 votesLulu may not be super common in NA/EU. But she is almost 100% red side ban or blue side first pick in both Korea and China and finally growing in Western popularity. League of Legends is played globally and honestly, the Asian teams just end up being faster at picking up on this. In short: Lulu is overpowered in solo lanes right now.
I think op.gg and fow.kr says completely otherwise against the "always banned" statement unless we're talking about tournaments here. The main outcry about the nerf is due to nerfing both mid and support lulu, causing support lulus to become even more unpopular amongst users.
On top of that, the current meta focuses way harder on the hypercarry jauggernauts, leading to lulus to being picked at mid because of the sustain and the ability to peel for such carries as a solo laner. People understand that mid lulus need to be nerfed, but the main problem whenever the mid gets nerfed, support lulu gets nerfed even moreso than the mid.
Not only that, with the new test environment, support lulus are now harder to survive due to her squishy body and slower than average support movement speed to begin with. This change causes might not badly effect the early laning phase, but as the game progresses, lulu is going to be squishier and squishier even with tanky items built on her.
ALittleMenace2 votesWe're not trying to present this as a buff overall. This is a nerf to Lulu overall, done in a way that should have noticeably lower impact for support Lulu/solo Lulu against physical damage dealers.
Thank you Meddler, honestly I was worried it was going to destroy lulu or take away solo laning completely. It is a nerf but it's not a nerf that will kill her.
Sightless664 votesWe are agreed that support Lulu is currently bad and can't take any nerfs, no matter how much smaller they are than solo lane Lulu's, right? I mean, I don't think support Lulu isn really part of the game right now. Is that something you guys disagree with?
Abyssphere2 votesWe're not trying to present this as a buff overall. This is a nerf to Lulu overall, done in a way that should have noticeably lower impact for support Lulu/solo Lulu against physical damage dealers.
I thought you guys thought that support Lulu was weak and wanted her to be decent because she's fun and healthy as a support? Could you really not find a way to nerf solo Lulu while actually buffing support Lulu rather than just "nerfing support less"?
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesNerf Q Damage and buff shield to compensate would be my guess. My problem with changing ratio on Q or something to a higher base is Lulu is already an oppressive top laner after like level 7 and I really don't like dealing with almost 300 damage Qs that are almost point and click if she marks you with Pix. I like the idea of her being a late game support that goes to a solo lane but she shouldn't outright win any immobile melee match up or someone that cannot burst her before she can ult herself and then pelt them to death with Q+Passive.
GuiltyGecko2 votesAny chance we can get her Ult to proc Ardent as well? Would help support Lulu while not helping solo lane lulu.
La Bello1 votesHow about those Katarina changes?? I was so looking forward to a Katarina gameplay updateyou were working on but they never hit PBE..:(
I really wish Katarina was a Athelitic slippery fighter with some good right click power rather than just "that chick who throws a billion knives then poofs around and ace's your team in 3 seconds".
Im just a average joe player so I dont know much about balance but what if you changed shunpo so instead of dealing instant damage. It empower her next auto?(dealing extra damage if she hits her targets back!)
what if her passive was Evelynns old ability Malice and Spite?(recover HP upon kill and recieve MS and AS boost).
or what if you reworked her Ultimate to let her execute people below a certain hp sorta like Pantheon(this would probally have to scale with offensive stats so people wont just run a full tank kat)
or what if a Well timed sinister steel could dodge an auto attack OR any ability that deals physical damage then it gets temporarily replaced with a ability called "Retaliate!" where her next attack was a garenteed crit that crippled her target.
Im not saying it would be balanced but you know Just throwing some ideas around, as of right now I think Katarina is so repetitive to play in lane she only has one combo Q into E and W then run away and she is extremely frustrating to play against because she is next impossible to gank thanks to her ward jumping and can just throw daggers all day and sit under tower until level 6 at which point she roams bot for a practically garenteed double She can be even MORE frustrating (especially in SoloQ) once she gets ahead because there is no way people can eat 3k damage per person over the course of 2 seconds and she ends a teamfight before the enemy team can even finish a spell rotation or react. I feel like her laning phase should be all about quick reflexes and jumping on oppurtunities for big burst to punish sloppy play!I find the idea of constantly being on the lookout for andrenaline packed 1v1's alot better than the typical QWER
Ctrl6.
TL;DR
please take a look at Katarina If the other faces of LoL are getting reworks and QoL buffs why not her ?Cinematic Kat is so much more interesting than ingame Kat!
Loli Lulu2 votesChanges we're testing below, with the goal of making her a bit more vulnerable in some match ups, while preserving her survivability against AD damage dealers.
- Base stats Base Armor increased :: 19 >>> 23 Base Health reduced :: 553 >>> 518
- Pix, Faerie Companion (Passive) Pix can trigger Tribute (from the Spellthief item line) once per Lulu basic attack (instead of never triggering it at all)
Not sure how I feel about these changes. On one hand, these changes would make Lulu a bit more vulnerable in lanes by lowering her effective HP, even with the base armor increase. Most champions nowadays have some sort of mixed damage. Supports often run Armor/Health Runes, so making a few swaps between them could minimize the effects of these changes. Allowing Pix to trigger an extra proc of Tribute may make it easier in some duo-lane matchups where poking is more difficult. In others, there would barely be an effect, as a good Lulu would be constantly poking anyways. It does make it a little more forgiving, but I wouldn't really say this is the help that Support Lulu needs. (Especially if Lulu decides to go with the Talisman line.)
One thought I've played around with is changing the way Lulu's passive works to be more supportive than straight up offensive. Instead of firing bolts that deal X +%AP damage based on level, maybe it could be something like..:
Lulu is assisted by Pix, a faerie, who fires a barrage of 3 bolts to her target every time she uses a basic attack against an enemy. Each bolt adds 1 stack of Glitter to the first enemy it hits, and lasts for X seconds. (Max Y stacks, decays over time.) Casting Help, Pix! on an ally transfers Pix's help to them for the duration. Allied Champions with Help, Pix! on them will deal an additional Z% damage per stack of Glitter on the enemy per basic attack.
The idea is to make it so that Lulu doesn't always have that extra damage which happens to scales off AP (which Support Lulu doesn't get as much of, compared to Lane Lulu). This would weaken Lane Lulu since the current passive helps in trades and last-hitting. For Support Lulu, her straight up damage from pokes would be decreased, but with coordination with her lane partner, could end up doing more damage in trades/fights. Could also lower the scaling of Glitterlance a bit and have it add some extra stacks of Glitter if an enemy is hit, to further tone down Lane Lulu while helping Support Lulu. (Though this idea overall makes things more complicated, so I don't completely like it either. Balancing sure is tough =x)
Caytheles1 votesA question i am asking directly to you Meddler, not related to Lulu but i need an answer.
When will Riot make this game Fun again?
When i joined league, i loved how someone could connect to a champion and main him for his personality and skillset, and be able to show the world "Yeah, i am a Lucian main" and be able to compete on equal terms against other champions?
My point is, you see the same Champions over and over... sometimes me and my friends end up opening our client.... then second guessing ourselves because we will end up seeng either a Darius or Fiora top lane, a Vayne or jinx bot lane with a Thresh support most likely, a yasuo mid lane and a Yi or lee sin in the jg... out of the 100+ i basically just named all of the champions that i have had in the last 27 games. and to me that is just sad.
DanofDemacia3 votesthis is about lulu not shen take that elsewhere
Almighty Teemo2 votesSo rito is "buffing" lulu by changing her interaction with an item, although numerous times people complained that items should play no part in balancing champions' stats. The way Lulu is played as a support is extremely risky, either you succeed by poking or you die, because you are already squishy. Her kit forces you to commit to trades to get some value, but this is already too high-risk low-reward. And the interaction with the item may not be a buff at all, since the poke item is terrible.
You can proceed to downvote me now.
Ritual2 votesBuff solo lane morgana and make support morgana weaker
Shénzhì1 votesCan Lulu's pet be updated into rogue Meep? (Bard's little people) http://r18.imgfast.net/users/1814/26/47/60/smiles/641450450.png They so cute tho..
Valderis Vandala1 votesPlease no, but maybe a cool idea for a skin.
Shénzhì2 votes:(
LightEcho1 votesWell it would be a small nerf, except with lulu's shield and ult, I feel like this will ultimately net even for top lulu, nerf mid lulu in most matchups, and nerf support lulu across the board.
amortensen41 votesI'm danish.. And i like trains.
Luna Loves Lulu1 votesThe Lulu nerfs seem so constant. Lulu was my favorite champion, my main, by far my most played. But now... ... I'm better off just using Nami to do relatively the same thing.
