On buffing tanks in the last patch

Metal Janna·Aug 20, 2018·62 votes·16,425 views

"First, we've noticed that tanks are struggling on the Rift. We don't want to put power into their itemization, so we're taking this opportunity to add some baseline power into their kits. " -AETHER, GENTLEMAN GUSTAF, patch notes

Hey guys, it's great that you're trying to make tanks not blow up so quickly. However, the rest of us would like to not blow up so quickly as well. Maybe have some tankier items to build that are actually viable for our classes? And yet, you're avoiding buffing the tank items themselves like you're worried some other champion outside the target class will poach them and become tankier. Would that really be a bad thing?

Also, can we stop hitting the weak with the buff stick and start hitting the strong with the nerf stick? Tanks are dying too fast because damage is too high. You can fix that by buffing the tanks, or you could fix it without contributing to power creep by nerfing the damage that's killing them so fast.

84 Comments

RookPusherAug 20, 201835 votes

I believe they said they're nerfing damage next season. I guess that's a gamble that folks don't find a new game before November.

Secondly, it looks like you're Orianna. I get that you want to survive a little longer, but mages are more in the glass cannon territory and that doesn't seem horrifying to me.

GigglesOAug 20, 201819 votes

Older seasons you had a tradeoff between damage, tankiness and CDR. Right now you build your classes "core items" and you get damage and CDR with no trade off, while tank items are horribly inefficent, and give you a terrible tradeoff because you lose that cdr and damage.

We just want to play games more like the older season where assassins were finishers, tanks were beeffy guys that stood in the front, and everyone else was somewhere in between for damage/durability.

Right now it feels like everyone just claps a little too hard.

AirKingNeoAug 20, 20183 votes

how are tank items not efficient?

TheSingularityAug 20, 20186 votes

Primarily in their effectiveness due to how much tank item reduction is in the game atm. Secondarily is how strong MR is compared to armour, or more so how weak armour is. You need about 3 times as much armour to have the same result against physical dmg as MR against magic dmg. Thirdly, tanks have lost exactly 850 HP and 55 armour through item nerfs over the past few years

item 3190 is significantly weaker than it used to be (lost a cdr source) item 3001 item 3110 item 3800 are all good, however when you buy one but still need CDR you end up buying unnecessary mana item 3075 is an absolute joke of an upgrade. There is zero point in upgrading it until it's the only thing left (you're buying it for grievous wounds as opposed to the thorny aspect as the dmg is pitiful). This used to be it's passive: "Reflects 15% of the physical damage taken (+ 25% bonus armor) from basic attacks and on-hit effects back to its source as magic damage."

item 1413 item 1401 used to grant 20-25% bonus health. The spirit of the ancient golem also granted armour and a far better jungling passive for tanks

Then they're up against item 3153 item 3147 item 3124 item 3814 item 1416 item 1419 item 3036 or item 3033 item 3071 item 3142 , making the already ineffective armour even worse

AirKingNeoAug 21, 20181 votes

lol thornmail such a bad upgrade that it makes attack speed champions attack themselves to death

thinking flat armor pen isn't countered by armor that tanks have an abundance of

thinking that cinderhulk was even balanced at 25% bonus HP, despite it being overpowered when it was 15% (like holy fuck do you not remember season 5?)

like what

TheSingularityAug 21, 20185 votes

lol thornmail such a bad upgrade that it makes attack speed champions attack themselves to death

Unless you're Rammus this doesn't happen.

thinking flat armor pen isn't countered by armor that tanks have an abundance of

Flat armour pen+percentage is the problem. Did a post a while back, a full build zed (in this he only had a single armor pen item cos the practice range dummy has very little armour) could reduce a full armour nautilus down to about 80 armour down from over 300. And bring nautilus through his shield and a gargoyle stoneplate down to about 30-40% health (based on the dmg he dealt to the dummy). Both champs max level. Compare this to MR vs magic dmg where a spirit visage turns a fed mage into a warm summer breeze

thinking that cinderhulk was even balanced at 25% bonus HP, despite it being overpowered when it was 15% (like holy fuck do you not remember season 5?)

I never said cinderhulk was balanced. I was simply stating that the item used to be stronger.

Given you cherry picked things you didn't like I will assume u agree with the rest

knobblezAug 21, 20186 votes

Thornmail doesn't even make sense to me. It's contradicting itself. It slows the champs attack speed while also dealing damage to the attacker each attack.

If you're dealing damage from being attacked and want to keep the enemy's aggro, why slow attack speed? It indirectly reduces the damage output of the item.

It makes more sense to me to pair return damage with extra HP or just armor so you can survive the trade instead.

Maybe they should make it more of a utility item that works well WITH armor items.

AirKingNeoAug 21, 20182 votes

Not really a condratiction. Sure, you deal less damage, but you survive longer. The item is a double fuck to attack speed users.

Thornmail is unhealthy and should be removed.

TheSingularityAug 21, 20181 votes

Will agree, but wouldn't say it should be removed. Just changed. As tanks still need a grievous wounds source

Issue with removing it becomes laning as tanks against the likes of trynd, yi or trundle.

AirKingNeoAug 21, 20181 votes

No, tanks don't need a GW source because tanks are supposed to be countered by healing. That's why no one fucking builds BoRK as a bruiser. Tanks need to stop having their counters removed.

Tryndamere is weak and no one even buys Bramble vs him. Yi doesn't lane. Trundle hasn't been good top lane even before Bramble Vest.

NyarlathοtepAug 21, 20181 votes

If tanks have no gw source then they literally are a healing dummy for the enemy that has lifesteal.

My Waifu VanillaAug 21, 20182 votes

Please lifesteal off me with my 250+ armor and a randuins. You'll heal soooo much especially since ADC healing has gone down significantly over the years with the IE change putting it at a record low.

AirKingNeoAug 21, 20181 votes

except that's a myth

NyarlathοtepAug 22, 2018

Way to dismiss things when they dont go your way.

AirKingNeoAug 22, 20181 votes

well how are you gonna prove that tanks become "healing dummies" since you're the one who made that claim in the first place

JobriqAug 21, 20185 votes

They've been pumping CDR into every item they can and it defeats the purpose of cooldowns... I remember when item 3078 didn't even have CDR. Also there was a time when Nasus players didn't build 50%-60% CDR cuz it's on all his favorite items ( item 3110 item 3065 item 3800 ). I get that there's a CDR cap, but CDR shouldn't be so prevalent that you hit the cap without even trying (like why do most of the tank MR items have CDR? Why not have a health+MR item without CDR like armor does item 3068 , item 3742 item 3143 )

GigglesOAug 21, 20181 votes

Thats why I want FoN back, I want that hp regen+MR... No damage, no cdr attached.

JobriqAug 21, 20181 votes

Maybe something similar to Force of Nature, but not the current one that's in Nexus Blitz. 90 MR on one item just seems silly.

Metal JannaAug 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I believe they said they're nerfing damage next season. I guess that's a gamble that folks don't find a new game before November.

Secondly, it looks like you're Orianna. I get that you want to survive a little longer, but mages are more in the glass cannon territory and that doesn't seem horrifying to me.

I'd like to be able to itemize to survive a little longer, yes. For example, when I get an Ezreal ADC, I know that i'm going to have to survive the enemy's CC on my own, with no peel and little damage backup from my carry. While I was looking into the efficiency of item 3075 for the sake of my argument, I discovered item 3110 . 114.57% gold efficiency on the stats i'm looking for, plus an aura that'll help my lane partner? Yes please! I guess I just need to try out some new builds.

Void KaijuAug 20, 20184 votes

The challenge with frozen heart is that it adds no health. If you build it early you'll still be dying in a heartbeat because your health pool is low. Tank items overall (or tanks themselves) need more health by a decent amount so that they can actually try to stack resists without those resists feeling useless. FH is great but not necessarily as a first item.

I for one would be pretty alright with lowered tank damage if it meant that they got to survive longer than 2 seconds in a fight.

A full ad bruiser with the health/ad hybrid items can tank a tower for damn near as long as an actual tank can up until approx 3 items (give or take), with few exceptions, whilst still outputting high levels of damage. Rushing resists without health on a tank means you take a lot longer to really turn on. Health is crucial to surviving early and making that effective hp you gain from resists more potent.

BlåbæretAug 20, 20185 votes

{quoted}

I believe they said they're nerfing damage next season. I guess that's a gamble that folks don't find a new game before November.

Secondly, it looks like you're Orianna. I get that you want to survive a little longer, but mages are more in the glass cannon territory and that doesn't seem horrifying to me.

IT'S ALWAYS "NEXT SEASON GUIISE; NEXT SEASON". Nothing ever changes around here. The game is getting progressively worse day by day. The game needs to be changed NOW; NOT TOMORROW.

RocketRelmAug 21, 20182 votes

Mages got fucked specifically by the rune changes defense wise. They got zero™ compensation for the removal of the old stats runes used to give, unlike everyone else who got huge buffs in a bunch of ways. They're the only class that didn't get armor, putting them significantly behind the curve. Their main 'compensation' was that everyone lost more MR than they lost flat pen, and that sort boots got +3 pen which meant moar damage, but this is also something they're vulnerable to.

Yes, they say they'll address it next season, but I honestly don't trust them. Sure, maybe they'll take the time and do it in a picture perfect way, but damage creep has been absolutely rampant this past season, and my worry is that there'll be a slight walk-back on it in the pre-season, but no change in their policy overall, causing any talkback to be wiped out by their march of damage creep by the next mid season.

™Sure, they technically got 12 HP/lvl, but that's functionally nothing, especially early game.

SangreDeNocheAug 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I believe they said they're nerfing damage next season. I guess that's a gamble that folks don't find a new game before November.

Literally every season the past 3 seasons has been full of riot promising next season will be when the _real _ changes come.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

RyzeTheSmurfMageAug 21, 20181 votes

If you die in 0.75 seconds against an assasin that's not even fed you don't even have time to react. The only item that could help is item 3157 and that item delays your damage and mana build a ton.

murderessAug 20, 20188 votes

They literally nerfed damage in this very patch and certain tanks have EXPLODED in winrate (Sion 54.5%), I'd say that should be enough for now.

Maybe have some tankier items to build that are actually viable for our classes?

I'm not quite sure what you'd like to see as mages have several defensive options, bruisers aswell, skirmishers will get tankier options in the next season and ADC's tend to be EXTREMELY awful to play against when they have tanky options - I remember the Steraks/Maw builds or whenever Frozen Mallet was viable.

And yet, you're avoiding buffing the tank items themselves like you're worried some other champion outside the target class will poach them and become tankier. Would that really be a bad thing?

It seems that you've been playing for only a year so please believe me when I tell you this: YES. Yes, that would be a bad thing. Anyone who has been there knows exactly what I'm talking about when I just post this: item 3068 item 3025

AIIanAug 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They literally nerfed damage in this very patch and certain tanks have EXPLODED in winrate (Sion 54.5%), I'd say that should be enough for now.

The issue isn't tank being strong, it's tank being strong after all the damage creep that occured. To go back to your Sion example, as an adc main, I know that he can outduel me until my 5th or 6th item with his base damage alone and without his ult. They still have a lot of nerfing to do until Sion item 3111 item 3742 stops blowing squishies in 4 seconds.

murderessAug 21, 20182 votes

Ah yes sure, you're an ADC main.. Yeah absolutely, nothing should be able to burst anything so that DPS reigns supreme.

No, thank you.

K3ars3nAug 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ah yes sure, you're an ADC main.. Yeah absolutely, nothing should be able to burst anything so that DPS reigns supreme.

No, thank you.

Tanks, specifically, SHOULD NOT BE BURSTING ANYTHING

SlythionAug 20, 20187 votes

And yet, you're avoiding buffing the tank items themselves like you're worried some other champion outside the target class will poach them and become tankier. Would that really be a bad thing?

yes

see: bruiser assassin meta see: tank item abusing adc meta see: ...

actually, there's been a meta where every class abuses tank items. You must not have played this game for super long.

Madsin25Aug 20, 20185 votes

Buffing tank items are risky. Not because squishys will abuse them, but because the juggernauts will.

Everything else I agree.

LakegaAug 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Buffing tank items are risky. Not because squishys will abuse them, but because the juggernauts will.

Everything else I agree.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cl6YfviT-wouldnt-limiting-items-based-on-class-be-best-balance

DarukongSrAug 20, 20184 votes

I only half agree with your post. Tanks need to be more viable, damage needs to be reduced, but Squishies do NOT need more tanky items. Perhaps it can be argued that mages need a little better armor itemization, but aside from that Squishies have arguably too many defensive items/capabilities to compliment their offensive stats. Not to mention most of those Squishies are ranged, mobile, or both.

Colton147Aug 20, 20183 votes

They forgot to give Ornn his damage and Unstoppable back. item 3070

KmSneakyAug 20, 20185 votes

Ornn doesn't need damage. He's cancerous enough with the ignite top new trend.

AzteryzAug 20, 20183 votes

i fear that if they buff tank itemization then we will get cases like tank akali/ekko/fizz again

egOrhythmAug 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

i fear that if they buff tank itemization then we will get cases like tank akali/ekko/fizz again

I ain't going back to tank Fizz top man... I AIN'T GOIN' BACK MAN!

AIN'T DOIN' IT MAN!!!

AhrisAug 20, 20183 votes

Why does squishy champs need to be tanky?

RocketRelmAug 21, 20181 votes

I don't think anybody is saying squishy champions need to be tacky. I think people just want a game state where not literally every non-tank champion is hitting like a Burst Mage.

KmSneakyAug 21, 20181 votes

Do you mean hitting like an assassin ? Coz burst mages (outside of cancerous and arguably fake ones Zoe Leblanc ) don't hit that much before there 2nd or 3rd item, when it's not the 4th :(

Nea104Aug 20, 20182 votes

Buffing? :D

VelasanAug 20, 20182 votes

If they decouple the stats from the rune pages I imagine this problem will solve itself. You can always just opt to take half your stats in defensive options for example.

So, instead of going into lane with 20 AP you could choose like say, 10 armor/magic resist and 10 AP. In the cases where you don't need the defense you still get the glass cannon option.

Tanks as a class get blown up too easily right now due to problems dating all the way back to last season. Lethality is worse for them, there is an abundance of true damage and health percentage damage (see Warwick Q, Galio Q, Ornn W, Maokai E etc), and mixed damage is more common than ever. Cinderhulk has been nerfed last season and this season, along with the health granted by all tank items.

In exchange for that they gave tank items niche uses that secured their power against certain types of damage. So, take Randuins and Adaptive helm. They hard counter certain damage types right? The problem is that if everyone on the enemy team has 2-3 different damage types, percent health damage and true damage how are you going to build against them all while each individual item is also equally only as effective against a specific source?

The other issue that dates way back is accessibility to armor shred. It's not uncommon to see a situation where you have an enemy top laner with cleaver, a jungler with cleaver, and an adc that has built one of the last whisper items. So, half your armor is either being ignored or stripped off by 3 different enemy champions.

Add to that how the defensive tree (Resolve that is) doesn't give you much in the way of any early game defense because Conditioning and Overgrowth scale. No doubt why they added Bone Plating for the anti burst.

KmSneakyAug 20, 20184 votes

It's almost like you're suggesting possibilities very similar to the old rune pages, wierd, it's like runes were better than the garbage we have now to customize our gameplay. [zombie-brand-clap]

VelasanAug 20, 20184 votes

{quoted}

It's almost like you're suggesting possibilities very similar to the old rune pages, wierd, it's like runes were better than the garbage we have now to customize our gameplay. [zombie-brand-clap]

Mostly, although they are not my suggestions, Meddler talked about this twice already over in the dev blog section of the boards.

The current runes still give stats per page. Realistically, even though they call them "runes," the whole purpose of the rework was to focus extraneous champion power on masteries and reduce the impact of random stats.

For the most part it is true that while the current system gives us less customization most players on the old system ever used the same 2-3 pages. Those pages tended to be dmg stat reds, armor yellows, magic resist blues, and more dmg on your quints. If you were adc alternate some of that for attack speed. There were rare cases for things like max armor pages for Rammus though.

So, the idea is the same, put less focus on stat choices and more on picking masteries. I think they just decided that the current system of placing it on what pages you choose was limiting players too much. They are supposed to be a way to stop players from just going through and choosing all the most optimal choices, but in the end it just landed up forcing champions into certain pages without providing meaningful options.

KmSneakyAug 21, 20181 votes

With the old system I was using 7 different pages for AP midlane only: AP/MS for Twisted Fate, MANA/level MS for Ryze, Scaling AP blue with HP scaling yellow and Flat armor quints for lategame while laning against AD, Scaling Hp yellow, AP quints, Flat MR blue for laning against AP assassins Scaling CDR blue with AR yellow and flat AP quints for CDR champs (like lux) against AD Scaling CDR blue Scaling ap yellow and flat MR quints for the same reason when facing AP bullies Scaling hp yellow flat ap quints and scaling AP blues for easy matchups

The classic MR blue AR yellow Flat ap quints when I don't know who I'm facing (blind mostly)

And the mastery pages, while not having as much impact as runes were also different depending on these situations, yes I'm a midlane main, but I just disagree when I can read that people back thene were using 3 pages at most, when you play a lot of different champions, and you know your matchups, you play a lot of different pages, and it's just not possible anymore.

LeetriAug 21, 20182 votes

Well then you were in the vast, vast, VAST minority. Most people only had 1 or maybe 2 rune pages. I had half an AP page because I spent my IP on champions instead of super dull runes I barely even noticed I had.

KmSneakyAug 21, 20181 votes

Been playing since the beginning, I mostly enjoy mages, and sometimes cc supports or toplaners, never felt so angry at riot prior to their rune/mastery annoucement in season 8, and I'm sure I was not in such a minor minority ;p

TeCoolMageAug 21, 20182 votes

Runes, maybe, but masteries just sucked

And I have like 3 different rune builds for the same champ while old runes I only had like 1 page

NanoFlameZeroAug 21, 20181 votes

Somehow the balance team does not understand what to fix in regards to damage. They keep nerfing/buffing the wrong things. We have to spell it out I think...

ADC are too strong again. Nerf damage from all sources by 10%
Tank damage is too high and tank items are too weak. Nerf Tank damage by 20% and buff tank items by 10%.
Mage burst damage is too high. Nerf Mage damage by 20%.

The end.

RocketRelmAug 21, 20182 votes

One thing I find weird about this post is the contrast between these points.

Problem: ADC damage too high. Solution: Reduce global damage by 10%.

Problem: Mage damage too high. Solution: Fuck mages specifically for 20%, leave all other damage untouched.